Mistweaver Adjusting to 5.2 ?

90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Greetings,

5.2 hit and all I had learn about how to get the most out of this mistweaver was shot down. I have a few questions. Because as of now I feel completely inadequate.

Do we or do we not fistweave anymore ?

Since the 5.2 patch what do I need to do differently ?
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90 Tauren Monk
7690
Im sure you're looking for high lvl responses but i'll throw my experience in too.

I am almost NEVER in the melee unless I am crane kicking in a dungeon (aside from the occasional push of the 'I win' button for the lulz ;) )

Its easier to channel or kick/lightning to get chi than to jab.
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90 Human Death Knight
7160
Greetings,

5.2 hit and all I had learn about how to get the most out of this mistweaver was shot down. I have a few questions. Because as of now I feel completely inadequate.

Do we or do we not fistweave anymore ?

Since the 5.2 patch what do I need to do differently ?


You can still fistweave, but these are only a few select fights in normal/heroic raiding where it is more viable than mistweaving.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9670
Fistweaving can work well on some fights and it scales better for 25 man than 10 man. The key to fistweaving, if you are going to do it, is to run a very disciplined rotation.

Talents and Glyphs
1. Use Ascension - You don't need the extra chi from Power Strikes or the burst chi from Chi Brew. The extra mana will give you more mana back every time you use Mana Tea.
2. I like Invoke Xeun for easy content. The DPS cooldown also boost healing through eminence. Rushing Jade Wind works great on fights where everyone stacks like Megaera.
3. Glyph Mana Tea. There is little free time while fistweaving. You need to be able to hit Mana Tea and get back to hitting stuff. Also, Fistweaving needs Mana Tea used almost on cooldown to regen enough mana to keep going.

Rotation
1. Drop statue
2. Jab>TP (5 times)
3. Free Surging Mist (even if no one needs healing - don't hold it. You need the chi)
4. Jab>BoK
5. Mana Tea
6. Repeat

At 10K spirit this rotation is mana neutral for me. If I drop in some ReM I have to watch my mana. Uplift isn't really an option as all of the Chi needs to be used on Muscle Memory procs. If you need to use uplift shift to ranged healing (Soothing Mists as Chi gen).

Rotation advice/explination
1. Drop your statue (Always). Your statue significantly increases eminence healing and must be down. If the fight moves then move your statue (it doesn't cost any mana).
2. Always follow Jab with TP or BoK. The main change in 5.2 was that the cost of Jab was doubled but Muscle Memory was added. If you follow Jab with TP or BoK you get about half your mana back that you spent on Jab. Don't waste any Muscle Memory procs. This is essential.
3. Use ReM sparingly and only when necessary. ReM will give you chi and do healing but it will also drain your mana. Use it before significant raid damage.
4. If the raid is stacked feel free to drop Jab and instead use Spinning Crane Kick>TP or BoK. This is especially effective if paired with Rushing Jade Wind. Spinning Crane Kick will also proc muscle memory if it hits enough people (3).
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90 Pandaren Monk
12200
/castsequence reset=5 Jab, Renewing Mist, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Mana Tea, Renewing Mist, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Expel Harm, Uplift, Jab, Blackout Kick, Chi Wave, Mana Tea
/use 13


Use it, Love it.

It is mistweaving down to one button, and for the most part i dont have a mana drain but i also have tailoring and spirits of the sun. This is an older iteration of the macro, uses Mana Tea on cooldown and decent use of Renewing Mist.

Need the following:
Chi Torpedo (ITS FREE and its AoE, 90k AoE heal is nothing to shrug at assuming you drop 3 charges)
Celerity, More free heals (did it occur that chi torpedo is OP yet?)
Ascension, 345k mana makes mana tea more useful
2% mana meta,Int=bigger heals(432 spirit= ~215 MP5) (6k mana using mana tea on cooldown is about 240 MP5 IIRC, and in any case is still nice regen)
Surging Mist Glyph (going for maximum lazy here)
Mana Tea Glyph (in the macro)

Advice
1.I'd use ReM on cooldown, it is a large source of heals.
2.Uplift when you can, again, large source of heals.
3.Never, ever, ever waste a muscle memory proc, its tons of mana waste.
4.Decide where your statue will do the most good, if its a clumped healing fight than the range cluster is preferred for the statue while you heal melee. Do not be afraid to move the statue, fight mechanics may demand it.
5.Expel Harm is EASY CHI, 7.5k mana a cast is nothing, dont forget to abuse it.
6. Chi torpedo: Jump and chi torpedo at the same time to cut your travel distance, it raises DPS uptime on the boss. however, chi torpedo-ing to the ranged group is viable. Chi torpedo and Celerity go hand in hand, reduced cooldown and extra charges mean more free heals, with 3 charges you can use 1 charge to go into the ranged group, one charge to return to melee, and one charge across the melee because they usually take a little more damage.

After a fight my normal healing is roughly 50k HP/S with this macro on fights like the Council, and DPS is looking somewhere around 40k. As far as i know Fistweaving works great on horridon, and jinrokh, and is kinda meh everywhere else. Biggest thing to do is abuse what you have.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Use it, Love it.

It is mistweaving down to one button, and for the most part i dont have a mana drain but i also have tailoring and spirits of the sun. This is an older iteration of the macro, uses Mana Tea on cooldown and decent use of Renewing Mist.


Thank you, this is the very first macro I have ever used. I copy and pasted and set it up in my F4 keybind, but how does it work, I tried it on a few lvl 90 mobs just to see it work. But does it only fully work when in a party or do I have to do stuff in between ?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
04/01/2013 01:09 PMPosted by Kylnara
6. Chi torpedo:


I really dislike chi torpedo. Ranged in most cases don't have sense enough to stack, they are scattered all over the place.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11690
ToT is quite healing intensive on most fights, Fistweaving in its pure form simply does not have the throughput to deliver the sort of healing you need to keep the raid up and have spare mana for the unexpected and/or periods of heavy damage. So far it looks like the only replies you got is from LFR experienced monks and that is sufficient provided that is all the exposure you have.

If you wish to go further than that, the answer is yes, fistweaving is dead in the water. You can tigerpalm here and there for the extra mana and when it looks like snoozefest even drop a blackout kick for some eminence heals along the way but in the scale of things that amounts is about 10-20% of your healing on a good day.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
ToT is quite healing intensive on most fights, Fistweaving in its pure form simply does not have the throughput to deliver the sort of healing you need to keep the raid up and have spare mana for the unexpected and/or periods of heavy damage. So far it looks like the only replies you got is from LFR experienced monks and that is sufficient provided that is all the exposure you have.

If you wish to go further than that, the answer is yes, fistweaving is dead in the water. You can tigerpalm here and there for the extra mana and when it looks like snoozefest even drop a blackout kick for some eminence heals along the way but in the scale of things that amounts is about 10-20% of your healing on a good day.


Yes I saw it, I ran a few dgns just a few minutes ago and found fistweaving dead other than what you said, and 484 geared and barely putting out 25K. I was doing 50K in LFR. but not anymore. I even got the shoulders to complete 4 of the 5 483 set, it took months to get that set, all for nothing.

Well I tried to see if it was something I was doing wrong, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I guess I will just shelve the mistweaver until Blizz fixes it. Going to gear windwalker, and dig a hole out back, say some nice words and throw dirt on this mistweaver.

Thank you all for your help.
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Ok first off, yea...all I've done so far LFR. I'm always a bit nervous to start real raiding because I never think I'm ready...so I always end up missing out lol. Anyways, why not try adjusting your style to the new changes instead of just quitting MW altogether?

I'm sure other people think differently, but I've never believed that fistweaving alone was going to get you far. I do just fine on this toon and I usually just mistweave. Even in ToT, I'm still doing fine. I'm not always topping the meters anymore, but I'm happy with where I'm at.

If you don't like torpedo, why not try Rushing Jade Wind? Now that mana isn't a big problem anymore, I've been using it more. I always bring tomes and change that talent depending on the fight. I will say though...I have every healing class to 90, and this one is definitely the most fun. Sure it has its problems, but at least I'm not falling asleep in the middle of a boss fight lol.

04/01/2013 01:09 PMPosted by Kylnara
6. Chi torpedo: Jump and chi torpedo at the same time to cut your travel distance, it raises DPS uptime on the boss.

Wow, how have I never thought of this? Thanks a lot for that tip!
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
I'm sure other people think differently, but I've never believed that fistweaving alone was going to get you far. I do just fine on this toon and I usually just mistweave. Even in ToT, I'm still doing fine. I'm not always topping the meters anymore, but I'm happy with where I'm at.


Mistweaving with my LFR gear only puts out around 19 to 25 k, when I see other healing classes in lesser gear tripling my hps. I finally had come to love my mistweaver, after a long hard struggle learning how to use it's unique style. It was my very first healing toon. I got one shotted by the Empress in 5.1, and both tanks kept yelling "rez Zenfoo" over and over, for once I felt like a real contributor of the party. But since 5.2 if I die I will be nothing more than a dead low hps healer. I much would rather be a dps that is putting out good numbers, than what Blizz thinks is acceptable for this class.

Yes I will use my MW spec for healing heroic dgns, but I will not raid with it again. Not until they fix it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
Healing meters don't mean anything (in a competitive sense against other healers; they're great for seeing who's using the right spells), espeically in LFR. Disc Priests can come in and Atonement their way to the top of the meters every time. Atonement is great for sniping heals. Likewise Holy Paladins can litter the raid with Eternal Flame and top the meters through Illuminated Healing. It doesn't take skill to do this and it doesn't make you a lesser healer because they "seem" like they're performing better. There is only ever so much damage to heal, so if someone is sniping heals, of course they're going to be on top.

It bums me out to see people give up on Mistweaver when it's not in a bad place at all right now - just takes a little adjusting. Monk is a brand new class and there are going to be growing pains.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
It bums me out to see people give up on Mistweaver when it's not in a bad place at all right now - just takes a little adjusting. Monk is a brand new class and there are going to be growing pains.


Stop with the bs, or help figure out what is wrong with the PoS Mistweaver.

All the help I saw was the same old crap from 5.1 repeated, Nothing in it that would help with the current play style.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11375
04/02/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Zenfoo
It bums me out to see people give up on Mistweaver when it's not in a bad place at all right now - just takes a little adjusting. Monk is a brand new class and there are going to be growing pains.


Stop with the bs, or help figure out what is wrong with the PoS Mistweaver.

All the help I saw was the same old crap from 5.1 repeated, Nothing in it that would help with the current play style.


Chill out man, there have been some informative replies to this thread already. Let me recap for you since you didnt read the whole thread...

FISTWEAVING IS DEAD - The only exception to this are gimmick fights in which you have a large dps increase for various reasons, ie Garalon, Jihn'Rok type mechanics. The only reason to ever fistweave on fights that dont have those mechanics are in fights where there is a serious drop in raid/tank damage, and you want to "stay busy".

Mistweaving is what is expected of you as a healer now to stand any chance of being useful. Using Renewing Mist/Uplift on CD along with maintaining Enveloping Mist on the tanks is our primary means of healing. Assuming you are at the correct hast plateau this should be fairly simple. Give more priority to Renewing Mist and Uplift if you cannot maintain full enveloping mist uptime on the tanks, although try to keep it as high as possible.

Our job is to blanket the raid with our Renewing Mist and uplift to maintain raid healing. Channel Soothing on injured members to generate chi along with using expel harm on CD. This is where I find most monks, including myself struggle. We dont use expel harm on cd, and its a free heal with free chi.

As far as talents are concerned the use of Xuen vs Chi torpedo is debatable. Yes chi torpedo provides ~30-40k heal every time you roll, however rolling is not always optimal and trying to force this into your rotation will result in a net hps loss. If you can take advantage of it and always remember to jump as you roll then it can outperform Xuen and ease mana problems if you are having them. Xuen is a fire and forget HEALING CD, you should NOT just set him loose at the start of the fight. Save it for times when you KNOW raid damage will be inflicted. Things like Lightning Storm/ Gate 2 and 4 or Jarlak (Horridon) and most of the time on Council are great times to pop Xuen to help with healing. Dude does like 800-900k damage and a ton of healing through eminence, problem is people use him at inappropriate times and dont get much in return.

As for the discussion concerning Power Strikes Vs Ascension Vs Chi Brew the choice is generally between Power Strikes and Ascension. Power Strikes is the best choice in regards to mp5, with ascension slightly behind, chi brew is slightly more difficult to qualify but can be very solid depending on how you use it. ie TFT, into double uplift pop Chi brew and double uplift again for insane burst raid healing. Ascension is a great talent, the extra mana doesnt mean all that much, and to be honest the 5th chi slot is more or less a crutch for sloppy players...yes you do get more mana from mana tea, but it is proportionate to the mana you would get if you didnt have the extra mana in the first place.

Hope this helps some. Dont give up on the class, we are in a great spot right now, and one of the best 10m healers around, our presence in 25m is also very strong. There will be many more ups and downs in the future as they try and find a place for us as a healer.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7390
you raided in 5.1, and according to your account, you did pretty well. it just sounds like you have just failed to adapt to the 5.2 changes.

Basically monk healing pre-5.2 was RM on cooldown- jab for chi- uplift. the increase to the mana cost of jab takes jab for chi out of the equation. Now it's RM/expel harm on cooldown, soothing mist for chi, uplift. Not that much different if you think about it.

"fistweaving" in terms of doing healing through damage was rarely a significant aspect of monk healing pre-5.2. I can only remember a couple specific fights that my eminence healing was anything more than 15% or so - fights where the boss or adds took significantly more damage (think heroic wind lord). So "fistweaving" in the traditional sense more just became "stick close to boss so i can jab for chi when i need it."

if you want to FISTWEAVE, you must understand you are trading HPS for increased DPS. Might look crappy in a pug or an LFR, but as long as the raid leaders and other healers know what you are doing, hps shouldnt matter really. along with the smart eminence heals, you still provide life cocoon and revival for when !@#$ goes bad.

EDIT: damn, beaten by taimaishoo, that was a very nice post.
Edited by Bill on 4/3/2013 12:10 PM PDT
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Fistweaving I can put out 60k hps and sometimes more. I find the problem being that I end up over healing during low damage phases and not doing enough during high damage phases while fistweaving. The problem with it really isn't it's potential HPS, it's that it has no ability to burst heal. It will heal for the amount it heals no matter how hard you hit the buttons. That being said a great skill to remember when fistweaving if you have good aim is healing sphere. It has a .5 second GCD. Anyway in normal raids mistweaver HPS is far from a problem, but I cannot fistweave unless we have healers who are willing to compensate for truly untargeted unchanging HPS.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11375
Thats the issue though, we are two healing anything not ToT, so the other healer cant really make up for it. Additionally since we have only been raiding this xpac for a month or so, we are not heroic geared from the previous tier, and the strain on our healers is enough to keep me from not being able to fistweave.

It might be btter in 25m, but we are running 10m and I cannot afford to fistweave in here at all, the burst is simply too much to shoulder for one raid healer. Again my experience is mostly in 10m unless we are speaking of 25m LFR, so when I choose to do fistweaving I am pumping out nearly 75-85k dps, but the hps is in the dumpster at a measly 20-25 at best.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11375
/castsequence reset=5 Jab, Renewing Mist, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Mana Tea, Renewing Mist, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Expel Harm, Uplift, Jab, Blackout Kick, Chi Wave, Mana Tea
/use 13


Use it, Love it.



DO NOT EVER DO THIS CRAP, this is enough to not get you removed from lfr, but thats it...
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90 Pandaren Monk
4305
Taimaishoo has brought up a lot of really good advice as far as mistweaving is concerned but I disagree with this entire statement:

FISTWEAVING IS DEAD - The only exception to this are gimmick fights in which you have a large dps increase for various reasons, ie Garalon, Jihn'Rok type mechanics. The only reason to ever fistweave on fights that don't have those mechanics are in fights where there is a serious drop in raid/tank damage, and you want to "stay busy".


I get really tired of hearing people say Fistweaving is dead. Fistweaving is not dead it's just had it's role adjusted. Bill said it best in that you are making a choice of doing less healing to gain more DPS. Whether you choose to fistweave or mistweave is entirely dependent on a lot of factors and it's up to the monk to decide which role is best for a given situation. If you're two healing a 10 man and you're struggling to keep everyone alive then yes, mistweaving is the right answer. If you're 3 healing a 10 man and you're struggling to make DPS checks but can't afford to lose too much HPS then Fistweaving may be your answer.

Taimaishoo, I don't know how you're getting such low fistweaving heals. We're both kind of in the same boat in doing 10 man raids though we run with three healers instead of two. I'm able to pull 40k-50k HPS on single target fights and can get into the 60s-70s HPS on bunched up cleave fights. Since heals are so tied to how much damage we do it's surprising that you're pulling 85k DPS and only getting 25k HPS from it.

But if you're looking for a definitive concrete answer on which role is better, Fistweaving or Mistweaving, for a given fight the answer is always going to be "It depends..."
Edited by Hiroyatu on 4/4/2013 6:10 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
12930
I find that monks are in a pretty decent place, and when I heal on my monk it's usually subbing for my druid so we can get a third healer. Fistweaving is amazing for this kind of healing, because our healers only need a small boost to the overall healing the keep people up, not an entire 3rd healer.
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