Mistweaver Adjusting to 5.2 ?

90 Pandaren Priest
9155
Which does more damage, 1 hand or 2 hander?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11690
04/03/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Taimaishoo
Thats the issue though, we are two healing anything not ToT, so the other healer cant really make up for it.


As of last week my guild two heals JinRok n Horridon, I am two healing with a paladin, I believe I ranked in world top 30 (for MW) for JinRock after I pumped out 109hps...(http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Throne_of_Thunder/Jin%27rokh_the_Breaker/10N/Mistweaver_Monk/)

sooo why the hell would you keep arguing for fistweaving when you are pretty much gimping yourself through not utilising all of the aspects of the class. Even a smite spam priest needs to use other buttons, so why would you think the 3 buttons "Fistweaving" rotation is going to make a well rounded healing spec?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Yes chi torpedo provides ~30-40k heal every time you roll, however rolling is not always optimal and trying to force this into your rotation will result in a net hps loss. If you can take advantage of it and always remember to jump as you roll then it can outperform Xuen and ease mana problems if you are having them. Xuen is a fire and forget HEALING CD, you should NOT just set him loose at the start of the fight. Save it for times when you KNOW raid damage will be inflicted.


Ok maybe I am still just ticked it took so long to figure it out the old way and just when I did they changed it.

But the two powers you detail above I don't like either of them. Zeun can in many cases can be lazy, and stand there and do nothing. and as I said before chi torpedo is useless in many cases, especially in LFR when ranged don't have sense enough to stack.

I do like rushing jade wind., and the proc is gives spinning crane kick. I only spot healed in LFR about a week ago. I am going to give it another go. By the way other than chi torpedo and Xeun, you described my play style to a Tee.
Edited by Zenfoo on 4/4/2013 9:17 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4305
04/03/2013 06:29 PMPosted by Eightysix
Thats the issue though, we are two healing anything not ToT, so the other healer cant really make up for it.


As of last week my guild two heals JinRok n Horridon, I am two healing with a paladin, I believe I ranked in world top 30 (for MW) for JinRock after I pumped out 109hps...(http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Throne_of_Thunder/Jin%27rokh_the_Breaker/10N/Mistweaver_Monk/)

sooo why the hell would you keep arguing for fistweaving when you are pretty much gimping yourself through not utilising all of the aspects of the class. Even a smite spam priest needs to use other buttons, so why would you think the 3 buttons "Fistweaving" rotation is going to make a well rounded healing spec?


She's not, Taimaishoo is the one who made the statement "FISTWEAVING IS DEAD!" I'm the one arguing for fistweaving and I'm only arguing for it's utilization when the circumstances call for it. And this statement...
04/03/2013 06:29 PMPosted by Eightysix
sooo why the hell would you keep arguing for fistweaving when you are pretty much gimping yourself through not utilising all of the aspects of the class.

...is really ironic since if you're not using fistweaving when the situation demands it you are pretty much gimping yourself through not utilising all of the aspects of the class.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10105
Reading through these responses has really helped me understand the mistweaver healing process. As a tank transitioning to healer (having never healed before), I was kind of at a loss of how to proceed.

@OP, I really feel like there is no right answer for you. People that have responded to you have given you all the answers and suggestions you could possibly need. Maybe its time to not blame the class, but work on your ability as a healer. Also, a little attitude adjustment could go a long way. Just my two cents....
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90 Pandaren Monk
9670
She's not, Taimaishoo is the one who made the statement "FISTWEAVING IS DEAD!" I'm the one arguing for fistweaving and I'm only arguing for it's utilization when the circumstances call for it. And this statement...
sooo why the hell would you keep arguing for fistweaving when you are pretty much gimping yourself through not utilising all of the aspects of the class.

...is really ironic since if you're not using fistweaving when the situation demands it you are pretty much gimping yourself through not utilising all of the aspects of the class.


This seems correct. From what I understand Disc priests don't Atonement heal progression raiding. Similarly Fistweaving is not viable in all settings. However, that does not mean it is dead. It has a place and a purpose. Use it when it is viable and Mistweave when that is called for.

One approach will rarely work best in every situation.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
13725
04/03/2013 06:40 PMPosted by Zenfoo
Yes chi torpedo provides ~30-40k heal every time you roll, however rolling is not always optimal and trying to force this into your rotation will result in a net hps loss. If you can take advantage of it and always remember to jump as you roll then it can outperform Xuen and ease mana problems if you are having them. Xuen is a fire and forget HEALING CD, you should NOT just set him loose at the start of the fight. Save it for times when you KNOW raid damage will be inflicted.


Ok maybe I am still just ticked it took so long to figure it out the old way and just when I did they changed it.

But the two powers you detail above I don't like either of them. Zeun can in many cases be lazy, and stand there and do nothing. and as I said before chi torpedo is useless in many cases, especially in LFR when ranged don't have sense enough to stack.

I do like rushing jade wind., and the proc is gives spinning crane kick. I only spot healed in LFR about a week ago. I am going to give it another go. By the way other than chi torpedo and Xeun, you described my play style to a Tee.
I wasn't happy mastering 5.1 then changing it so soon. But, it wasn't a significant change in practice. In theory, it seems so, but the main things from 5.1 still apply. ReM on CD, EH on CD, TFT before big damage and right before ReM comes off CD, pool chi and uplift on that damage. The ONLY difference is your chi generator switching to soothing most of the time so you're not going to be white-hitting the boss as much. I'm not noticing a loss from that. I'm still putting out about the same HPS relative to our paladin and when we get a disc priest. Sometimes I'm more, sometimes they are.

Chi Torpedo is far from useless, but TBH I don't like it all that much either. But most raids (even in lfr) you have a ranged stack area (in lfr usually at entrance) and a melee stack area (behind boss). So, it's often useful. I'm just terrible at using it... and sometimes I roll into trouble. But, on progression it's great because I'm likely to be low on mana due to mistakes on my part as well as the rest of the raid.

I do love Xuen though. He never stands there for me. Then again, maybe it's because I cast it on a target and hit that target with a quick touch of lightning to be sure he's hitting the one I want as the tooltip says it attacks your primary target. If the target dies while he's still out, hit another target. You also have to think when he's most beneficial. I like to use him on Jin'Rok on the lightning and on Tortos on rockfall.

I've never used Rushing Jade Wind, but what confuses me is that you complain people don't stack, so chi torpedo is useless. If people don't stack, how on earth does RJW, which is tied to SCK, actually work for you? Both of those things need people stacked to be effective. Seems like a terrible choice to me. Stop being so stubborn. Learn to flow with changes or go find some class that never changes.

Oh wait...
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
I've never used Rushing Jade Wind, but what confuses me is that you complain people don't stack, so chi torpedo is useless. If people don't stack, how on earth does RJW, which is tied to SCK, actually work for you? Both of those things need people stacked to be effective. Seems like a terrible choice to me. Stop being so stubborn. Learn to flow with changes or go find some class that never changes.

Oh wait...


What I love bout rushing jade wind is the proc of extra healing from spinning crane kick, I can roll into the range of melee for a nice aoe heal, 2 spins, little mana usage and maybe pop a tiger palm while in there, and pop mana tea, roll back out, and if ranged are near us healers hit spinning crane kick again before the proc leaves. then go back to my rotations
Edited by Zenfoo on 4/4/2013 9:29 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
I can roll into the range of melee for a nice aoe heal, 2 spins, little mana usage and maybe pop a tiger palm while in there, and pop mana tea, roll back out, and if ranged are near us healers hit spinning crane kick again before the proc leaves. then go back to my rotations

You know Mistweavers are considered melee by mechanics, regardless of how you're healing? Why would you ever stand at ranged unless it's a fight where standing in melee is actually detrimental? (Of which there are fairly few this expac so far)

As for your remark about Xuen standing around doing nothing - if you're in melee, throw out a Jab/TP or something, or if at ranged use CJL immediately after casting Xuen. That's really not hard. Xuen makes a pretty sizeable healing CD and is sure as heck better than RJW on the VAST majority of fights. Most do not have a phase where you are needed to chaincast SCK for long periods of time.

In my experience of spell use, Xuen > Chi Torpedo > RJW. I use each depending on the situation, but Xuen sees the most use and RJW sees the least.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11375
Perhaps I mispoke earlier when I said that fistweaving is dead. That is so definitive and glaringly incorrect...my apologies.

Let me begin to correct this by saying that fistweaving is only situationaly useful instead of our go to method of healing. Previously if you were not using Jab x2 into uplift, you were healing incorrectly. This is because jab was the only definitive way to generate chi (soothing mist was and is still very random) on demand. you know how much mana you would spend to generate 1 chi.

Now that jab is tied into muscle memory and the cost of wasting that proc would cause you to oom even with the highest of spirit values, it is not relaly optimal or optional to not TP after a jab. The rotation is very simple...keep up Serpent's Zeal and then jab->TP using ReM on cooldown. You must remember to drink your mana tea on CD and it can be pretty mana neutral, especially if you are using expel harm on cd like you should. (Seriously need to get better at this...)

Having said all that, you cannot reliably fulfill the role of a healer for progression unless the fight has previously mentioned gimmicks in place. You also dont quite fulfill the role of a dps either. A great use of fistweaving is when you are unsure if you need or would like to try to 2 heal fights, but really find that you cant make it without a little help. It would be much better for the raid for you to mistweave, and be able to cover the burst damage as needed while maintaining reliable raid heal coverage. That is where fistweaving falls short, it can be decent HPS, but you are unable to handle much burst raid damage.

Either way I hope you are able to use some of the great information and opinions that have been expressed in this thread. Good luck on everyone's progression.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
@Swaggle
You know Mistweavers are considered melee by mechanics, regardless of how you're healing? Why would you ever stand at ranged unless it's a fight where standing in melee is actually detrimental? (Of which there are fairly few this expac so far)


Not anymore, or haven't you kept up with the last patch update ? My old style in 5.1 I was doing an easy 50k in heals, I tried fistweaving in this new patch and did even less than 19k. Tonight I combined both and still was only able to get 24,700 out of this toon. The whole time I was working my butt off, and ended up doing more in over heals than I did in actual heals,60% by 23 million to be exact, 2nd only to the top healer that was first in heals and I was 4th.

Something is very wrong, no matter what I try, how I talent all I can get out of this toon is 24.7k hps.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
@Swaggle
You know Mistweavers are considered melee by mechanics, regardless of how you're healing? Why would you ever stand at ranged unless it's a fight where standing in melee is actually detrimental? (Of which there are fairly few this expac so far)


Not anymore, or haven't you kept up with the last patch update ? My old style in 5.1 I was doing an easy 50k in heals, I tried fistweaving in this new patch and did even less than 19k. Tonight I combined both and still was only able to get 24,700 out of this toon. The whole time I was working my butt off, and ended up doing more in over heals than I did in actual heals,60% by 23 million to be exact, 2nd only to the top healer that was first in heals and I was 4th.

Something is very wrong, no matter what I try, how I talent all I can get out of this toon is 24.7k hps.

I don't think you read my post. My point was there is very rarely any reason to be out of melee RANGE, note that I said "regardless of how you're healing". Even if you're casting SM all the time, there is no reason to resign yourself to standing at ranged because Mistweavers are considered melee by the game. That means abilities that affect ranged only will never affect a Mistweaver, and you are hindering yourself by forcing yourself to dodge/sidestep them when at ranged.

Also Fistweaving may be subpar in general but it's nowhere near as bad as you're claiming. You must be doing something incorrect. 19k is just terrible. I fistweave fights when I can and never see my numbers anywhere near that low.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
I don't think you read my post. My point was there is very rarely any reason to be out of melee RANGE, note that I said "regardless of how you're healing". Even if you're casting SM all the time, there is no reason to resign yourself to standing at ranged because Mistweavers are considered melee by the game. That means abilities that affect ranged only will never affect a Mistweaver, and you are hindering yourself by forcing yourself to dodge/sidestep them when at ranged.

Also Fistweaving may be subpar in general but it's nowhere near as bad as you're claiming. You must be doing something incorrect. 19k is just terrible. I fistweave fights when I can and never see my numbers anywhere near that low.


I am rarely at range, unless I roll out to ranged to spot heal them. .Then again you are Item lvl 523, I am still in the 480 range. I had the pleasure of healing with 2 other monks tonight in LFR Zanda. Both who were in the 500 item lvl range and they were only able to get in the mid 30k range, All 3 of of topped in over heals and a priest in lesser gear was doing 54k.

Plain and simple, Blizz completely over nerfed mistweaver. Big pulled I casted, boss fights I fistweaved as much as I could to gain my buffs without sacrificing mana.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
If you're getting outhealed by someone in much less gear, that's a play issue, not a class issue. I heal alongside 3 different priests and we're all competitive with each other, but there are many fights where I'm able to beat them.
Also LFR meters aren't a very good indicator generally, considering the type of players usually found there.

Overheals are pretty close to meaningless, especially if you're not ooming.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
0
You know Mistweavers are considered melee by mechanics, regardless of how you're healing? Why would you ever stand at ranged unless it's a fight where standing in melee is actually detrimental? (Of which there are fairly few this expac so far)


so that channeling soothing mists doesn't spin you in a direction you don't want to be facing, often blocking your view and mouseover macros with a boss model, for one

you could ask the same question in reverse, particularly given the output of melee healing without a damage modifier mechanic - why clutter up melee even more when you're not melee-healing

some people prefer being in melee, some prefer being at ranged
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
04/06/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Bushmills
so that channeling soothing mists doesn't spin you in a direction you don't want to be facing, often blocking your view and mouseover macros with a boss model, for one

I've.. never had that problem, and I heal with mouseovers. Why would the boss model obscure your raid frames in any way? The spinning really only would cause issues if you're trying to fistweave. (Which isn't what I'm discussing.)
you could ask the same question in reverse, particularly given the output of melee healing without a damage modifier mechanic - why clutter up melee even more when you're not melee-healing

some people prefer being in melee, some prefer being at ranged

I'm not talking about fistweaving. I'm saying that since Mistweavers will NEVER be affected by ranged-only mechanics (like Arcane Resonance, Wind Bomb, Rain of Arrows, Corrosive Resin, Wind Step, Cry of Terror, etc) you're hindering yourself by having the "preference" to generally heal from range because you will have to spend a lot more time dodging those mechanics than you would if you were in melee. The only reason to not be in melee is in situations where there's too much crap in melee (Will of the Emperor - though that also has range issues - for example, as well as Iron Qon ph1) or you can't keep up with the boss being kited or stuff like that.

There are some fights I heal from ranged for those reasons, but if I can be in melee I will be. Especially if the encounter has mechanics that target ranged only. Though admittedly this tier seems to have fewer of those than last. Anyway my point is that the game considers mistweavers to be melee, which some people don't realize.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15245
I'll throw in my 2 cents since I primarily fist weave in our 10 mans. Yes I am the bottom healer on all fights but I am also the undergeared third healer.

Having said that I pull 40-50k dps which drastically decreases the time we are fighting.

If you just fistweave you are going to do a lot less healing then if you just heal, and you are going to need some nice gear to compete. At 483 iLevel I couldn't break 20k hps fistweaving, but now at 498 I can easily pull 50k 3 healing, which saddens me because I was doing 50k easily pre 5.2 with a 483 iLevel.

You also need to know when to switch to healing and not dps'ng or bad things will happen to your raid. Keeping the raid blanketed in ReM's is a necessity for uplift spamming as well and keep life cocoon on CD as absorbs make your heals look better!!! Just ask a Holy Paladin.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
0
I've.. never had that problem, and I heal with mouseovers. Why would the boss model obscure your raid frames in any way? The spinning really only would cause issues if you're trying to fistweave. (Which isn't what I'm discussing.)


mouseover macros are often used over player/npc models, not just raid frames. protectors on lei shi for example - I've had the boss model invisibly block my paralyze mosueover from working which wouldn't have happened if I'd been a few yards further out

04/06/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Swaggle
you're hindering yourself by having the "preference" to generally heal from range because you will have to spend a lot more time dodging those mechanics than you would if you were in melee.


most of the time that's not true unless you choose to stack on top of a ranged class

it's mostly a preference thing - some people prefer being further out of melee, some people prefer being in. claiming that one is better than the other in general terms is silly
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
04/06/2013 03:32 PMPosted by Bushmills
mouseover macros are often used over player/npc models, not just raid frames. protectors on lei shi for example - I've had the boss model invisibly block my paralyze mosueover from working which wouldn't have happened if I'd been a few yards further out

I've really never heard of someone talking about using mouseovers for that. At least for healing. Maybe for targetting something like a swiftmend (if your UI doesn't show ideal targets, which is a UI issue) but as far as I know, MWs don't have anything like that. Maybe Chi Burst, but my UI shows ideal targets.
You can't honestly act like that's the typical use for mouseovers though imo. As for the protectors thing, I've never had any issue CCing on that fight while healing from melee. Though I don't use mouseovers for Paralyze.

most of the time that's not true unless you choose to stack on top of a ranged class

I guess you don't raid 25s then? Because it's often close to impossible to find a place to squeeze in among the ranged on encounters where the ranged have to be spread out 5 or more yards. And forcing yourself to heal from ranged in that type of situation is frankly ridiculous and shooting yourself in the foot. Sure it's preference, but it's a preference that ultimately hinders you and apparently compensates for inefficient UI.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Some great debates here, and I see some do agree that prior to 5.2 we mist weavers were just as good as any other healer in the same item lvl gear. Where as of now we aren't even close. Yes I know if I work hard and get in better gear that my healing will improve but it will never be able to match other healers in the same item lvl gear in it's current condition. Blizz really needs to take this mistweaver back to the sims and fix this, Pronto. But as it is now I have definitely decided to shelve this spec, and work on my warlock that I gave a break to build this nerfed disaster
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