New PTR build - Atonement nerf.

90 Blood Elf Priest
12285
Didn't really read the responses in this thread, but I seriously hope people aren't complaining about this much needed change.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/05/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Ceddya
Nerfing Atonement across the board may be the easiest way, but it doesn't address the fact that the main issue is with the spammability of Smite, not offensive Penance or Holy Fire. A better alternative would be to give Smite the Solace treatment, removing it from Atonement and just reduce the amount it heals for further.


That just seems like it would be even more clunky and weird. Only two of our "atonement" spells actually use Atonement? What? I'm not sure that's any better than what they're doing now, and it's certainly not more elegant.

Also, there's no real 'damage or heal' choice for Disc Priests. When Atonement is our only raid wide spot heal, it's something that we'll revert to when there's light damage (or use on CD like offensive Penance). The lack of alternatives removes the element of choice.


I've said it several times, but the only reason why I smite spam is because there isn't another good alternative. There's no point to casting Heal - it's too slow, too inefficient, and heals for too little. There's little to no point to casting Greater Heal, as it's too slow and inefficient (it will be sniped). And Flash Heal is one of those "oh crap" emergency heals that I DO use, but when I'm using it I generally can't Atonement anyway.

They need to make our OTHER heals more interesting and compelling, not nerf the thing we're falling back to for lack of having anything else worthwhile to cast.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11050
There is a 'damage or heal' choice for Discipline Priests.

On live Prayer of Healing is still more powerful and more efficient than offensive Penance when hitting 5 people. With a 20% nerf it'll be more powerful only hitting 4 targets. Penance itself is both an offensive and defensive tool- regretfully it does more healing when used offensively than pretty much any time it is used defensively. The 20% nerf will fix that and allow a true choice to be made.

Smite is a terrible healing spell. It's currently the worst possible heal a priest can cast from every metric, even at 5 stacks of Evangelism and glyphed. The only thing that makes it worth casting is that it has non-healing tradeoffs- it adds damage, stacks Evangelism and is 'smart'. Heal will do far more healing for far less mana, but is unwieldy. After Atonement gets nerfed 20% and Heal is that much more efficient than Smite it'll probably still be the same- Discipline priests have gotten hooked on trading damage and speed for healing output and by and large can afford to be cavalier with their mana because of Rapture.

It is your choice. I admit its an unsavory choice, Smite is sexy and treats you bad and Heal is boring but will love you forever, but it's still a choice. ;)
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
On live Prayer of Healing is still more powerful and more efficient than offensive Penance when hitting 5 people. With a 20% nerf it'll be more powerful only hitting 4 targets. Penance itself is both an offensive and defensive tool- regretfully it does more healing when used offensively than pretty much any time it is used defensively. The 20% nerf will fix that and allow a true choice to be made.


Nope, an offensive Penance is higher HPS and HPM than a 5-target PoH. This is even before factoring in the fact that PoH will almost always have much higher overhealing. Couple that with the fact that casting an offensive Penance gives you a stack of Evangelism, and there's no reason to not cast Penance offensively on CD over a PoH, even more so if you have BT active.

While the 20% nerf to Atonement may mean that a defensive Penance becomes relatively stronger, I still don't see many situations where you're better off casting it defensively rather than on the boss, if only for the fact that an offensive Penance usually has less overhealing and gives you a stack of Evangelism too.

Smite is a terrible healing spell. It's currently the worst possible heal a priest can cast from every metric, even at 5 stacks of Evangelism and glyphed. The only thing that makes it worth casting is that it has non-healing tradeoffs- it adds damage, stacks Evangelism and is 'smart'. Heal will do far more healing for far less mana, but is unwieldy. After Atonement gets nerfed 20% and Heal is that much more efficient than Smite it'll probably still be the same- Discipline priests have gotten hooked on trading damage and speed for healing output and by and large can afford to be cavalier with their mana because of Rapture.


I think you underestimate just how potent the raid wide smart healing capabilities of Smite are. The main bonus to Smite is ToT, and most Atonement Priests are usually fitting in 2 Smites between their Penance casts, effectively reducing the CD of Penance to 5s. As you've mentioned, each Smite also gives you a stack of Evangelism.

Even with the 20% nerfs, I do not see any Discs giving up all the benefits of Smite/Atonement for a 2.5s Heal that's only going to result in massive overhealing. It's not even a case of trading damage and speed for healing output when post-nerf Smite will still beat Heal on all 3 counts handily.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/5/2013 2:47 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
There is a 'damage or heal' choice for Discipline Priests.

On live Prayer of Healing is still more powerful and more efficient than offensive Penance when hitting 5 people. With a 20% nerf it'll be more powerful only hitting 4 targets. Penance itself is both an offensive and defensive tool- regretfully it does more healing when used offensively than pretty much any time it is used defensively. The 20% nerf will fix that and allow a true choice to be made.


Not really. As long as the damage is spaced out among multiple parties, Penance will still beat the living crap out of PoH in terms of which is worthwhile to cast and when.

Smite is a terrible healing spell. It's currently the worst possible heal a priest can cast from every metric, even at 5 stacks of Evangelism and glyphed. The only thing that makes it worth casting is that it has non-healing tradeoffs- it adds damage, stacks Evangelism and is 'smart'.


I disagree on several points. For one, Evangelism and the fact that it's "smart" are both healing bonuses. That's important. It's worthwhile to cast just for those two things, but most of all in that it's fast. Much, much faster than anything else you could cast non-offensively other than, say, Penance. And it's still better to cast Smite than use PW: Shield unless you're 100% sure the shield will be consumed.

Heal will do far more healing for far less mana, but is unwieldy.


You're incorrect.

Heal costs 5700 mana and heals for 43031 at my level of Spellpower. It has a 2.5 second cast time assuming 0 Haste. At 5 stacks of Evangelism, Smite costs 5670 mana and heals for 34513 at my level of Spellpower. It has a 1.5 second cast time assuming 0 Haste. If you were to chain cast the two spells for 15 seconds, assuming 0 latency, Heal would heal for 258,186. But Smite, chain cast over the same time period, would heal for 345,130. And this only scales with Haste.

Smite is also less likely to be sniped, because the base cast time is just faster.

After Atonement gets nerfed 20% and Heal is that much more efficient than Smite it'll probably still be the same- Discipline priests have gotten hooked on trading damage and speed for healing output and by and large can afford to be cavalier with their mana because of Rapture.


No. We still won't be using Heal because it's too slow and heals for too little vs. the mana and time investment we have to put into it.

It is your choice. I admit its an unsavory choice, Smite is sexy and treats you bad and Heal is boring but will love you forever, but it's still a choice. ;)


It really isn't, but it's cute that you think that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11430
As Tiriel said, smite is better than heal in almost all regards.

Smite has higher mana consumption per second (but is still low enough on consumption that it doesn't cause mana problems) than heal, but is almost 50% better in terms of HPS even when not glyphed, and gives a number of other benefits.

It does damage. It suffers from less overheal because it's a smart heal and is less likely to be sniped since it has a short cast time. It provides evangelism stacks. It can be used to help achieve high uptime on Twist of Fate on fights with adds. On that note, it benefits twofold from Twist of Fate, compared to heal. Oh, and it's amazing on fights with damage modifiers.

What does heal give you? Low mana consumption when mana's usually not an issue, and a Grace stack/refresh.

(Edited: missed a plural)
Edited by Icecreamsoup on 4/5/2013 4:46 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
11050
You are both correct. My information is outdated because of how 5.2 mastery affects Atonement. My apologies.

Conceptually, that makes me even more disturbed about what a large part Atonement plays in the Discipline toolkit.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
You are both correct. My information is outdated because of how 5.2 mastery affects Atonement. My apologies.

Conceptually, that makes me even more disturbed about what a large part Atonement plays in the Discipline toolkit.


As I've said, I use it because it's the best option. Heal just is a crappy spell, and I'd rather not spend mana at all than spend mana on a spell that is so slow and tiny it'll do all of nothing anyway. :-\
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
You are both correct. My information is outdated because of how 5.2 mastery affects Atonement. My apologies.

Conceptually, that makes me even more disturbed about what a large part Atonement plays in the Discipline toolkit.


You are both correct. My information is outdated because of how 5.2 mastery affects Atonement. My apologies.

Conceptually, that makes me even more disturbed about what a large part Atonement plays in the Discipline toolkit.


As I've said, I use it because it's the best option. Heal just is a crappy spell, and I'd rather not spend mana at all than spend mana on a spell that is so slow and tiny it'll do all of nothing anyway. :-\

Quoted to recognize a nice, civil, enlightening discussion.
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100 Human Priest
19060
hey^ play nice with the other kids in this sandbox.

Still wishing the team would see that chain casting atonement is the problem, not the percentage of healing it does. We still don't use archangel because sitting at 5 stacks evangelism is mana efficient and not that penalizing numerically because of the damage modifier. Weaving atonement spells in between real heals is a thing of the past because we can spam these cheap smites indefinitely, so long as we're just barely meeting the healing needs of the encounter.

So why aren't we just scrapping the mana reduction from evangelism instead of tinkering with the output of these spells?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
hey^ play nice with the other kids in this sandbox.

Still wishing the team would see that chain casting atonement is the problem, not the percentage of healing it does. We still don't use archangel because sitting at 5 stacks evangelism is mana efficient and not that penalizing numerically because of the damage modifier. Weaving atonement spells in between real heals is a thing of the past because we can spam these cheap smites indefinitely, so long as we're just barely meeting the healing needs of the encounter.

So why aren't we just scrapping the mana reduction from evangelism instead of tinkering with the output of these spells?


Because there's nothing wrong with us having a fast, cheap way of healing. I've never really understood your love of Heal, or your hatred of Atonement. One thing I will say is that I've gotten away from sitting at 5 stacks perpetually. That really isn't worthwhile in a 25 man situation, though I can understand why it might be in a 10 man.

I guess I don't quite understand why you want the spec to have fewer tools than it already has to deal with spotty raid damage/tank healing. Instead of advocating nerfing Evangelism, why not be pushing for the other heals to be made more appealing?
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100 Human Priest
19060
Naw, atonement is my favorite. In cata I always specced atonement and avoided strength of soul + train of thought. Most of what I say concerning heal vs. smite is coming from spreadsheet balance. In all practicality, I'd be really bummed if we lost the ability to dps heal.

And hey, proccing borrowed time on a target with grace with a direct heal is a suggestion that makes other heals more appealing. So it buffing strength of soul. I just have a wild hair up my !@#$ because on fights like Council of the Elders, I spam smites, offensive penance, and holy fires when a dps gets Biting Cold when we should so obviously be casting direct heals. It's better for me to maximize penance with smite+train of thought+glyph of smite than it is to actually do direct healing, and that's silly bears.

The sitting at 5 stacks logic for me is "how much healing is actually required here? Can I get away without using archangel and can I keep casting exclusively offensive spells? If yes, then stay at 5 stacks because that's maximizing my damage for no mana cost". I think the logic should be "I'm at 5 stacks evangelism, I worked so hard to get them by picking the best times to build those stacks without neglecting my googleplexamillion other things I could be managing and I get to use them as a payoff with ARCHANGELLLLLL!!!!!" (reading the end of that in Oprah's voice is optional)

This atonement problem to me isn't just how easy and effective it is to cast these spells. It's also how unappealing the alternatives are like using penance defensively, actually using grace, casting direct heals, etc. But I'm probably closer in agreement to most of us posting in these threads than I let on.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Naw, atonement is my favorite. In cata I always specced atonement and avoided strength of soul + train of thought. Most of what I say concerning heal vs. smite is coming from spreadsheet balance. In all practicality, I'd be really bummed if we lost the ability to dps heal.

And hey, proccing borrowed time on a target with grace with a direct heal is a suggestion that makes other heals more appealing. So it buffing strength of soul. I just have a wild hair up my !@#$ because on fights like Council of the Elders, I spam smites, offensive penance, and holy fires when a dps gets Biting Cold when we should so obviously be casting direct heals. It's better for me to maximize penance with smite+train of thought+glyph of smite than it is to actually do direct healing, and that's silly bears.

The sitting at 5 stacks logic for me is "how much healing is actually required here? Can I get away without using archangel and can I keep casting exclusively offensive spells? If yes, then stay at 5 stacks because that's maximizing my damage for no mana cost". I think the logic should be "I'm at 5 stacks evangelism, I worked so hard to get them by picking the best times to build those stacks without neglecting my googleplexamillion other things I could be managing and I get to use them as a payoff with ARCHANGELLLLLL!!!!!" (reading the end of that in Oprah's voice is optional)


I think the problem here is that you're judging the situation purely from a 10 man standpoint. And maybe it's just because Heroic Council is the last fight I killed (after many, many, many wipes), but spamming Atonement to try to heal someone with Biting Cold is playing fast and loose with their life. Doing it for someone with Frostbite is a one-way ticket to a Brez.

Out of curiosity, why aren't you prepping for Dark Power while you're using your Evangelism stacks?

This atonement problem to me isn't just how easy and effective it is to cast these spells. It's also how unappealing the alternatives are like using penance defensively, actually using grace, casting direct heals, etc. But I'm probably closer in agreement to most of us posting in these threads than I let on.


Nerfing Atonement isn't going to make those any more attractive. I literally cannot put into polite terms exactly how much I detest Grace. I hate it. I absolutely hate it, and I think if I was forced to juggle it 100% of the time, I would just reroll. I hate the mechanic with a fiery, burning passion and I wish beyond words that they would just do away with it.

I use direct heals all the time. I use PoH all the time. I'm sorry that you don't, but I do. And I can tell you that nerfing Atonement isn't going to push me to juggling Grace OR use Heal. It isn't going to happen. Even nerfed, Heal and Grace are trash and I wish they would just set them on fire.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
7680
There is a 'damage or heal' choice for Discipline Priests.

On live Prayer of Healing is still more powerful and more efficient than offensive Penance when hitting 5 people. With a 20% nerf it'll be more powerful only hitting 4 targets. Penance itself is both an offensive and defensive tool- regretfully it does more healing when used offensively than pretty much any time it is used defensively. The 20% nerf will fix that and allow a true choice to be made.

Smite is a terrible healing spell. It's currently the worst possible heal a priest can cast from every metric, even at 5 stacks of Evangelism and glyphed. The only thing that makes it worth casting is that it has non-healing tradeoffs- it adds damage, stacks Evangelism and is 'smart'. Heal will do far more healing for far less mana, but is unwieldy. After Atonement gets nerfed 20% and Heal is that much more efficient than Smite it'll probably still be the same- Discipline priests have gotten hooked on trading damage and speed for healing output and by and large can afford to be cavalier with their mana because of Rapture.

It is your choice. I admit its an unsavory choice, Smite is sexy and treats you bad and Heal is boring but will love you forever, but it's still a choice. ;)


Smite adds a lot because it lowers Penance cooldown.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
7680
The problem with Heal and GHeal is that they take too much time to cast. By the time you finish casting your GHeal the target will be at full health if there are other healers seeing the same urge to heal that person.

Smart healing, AoE and HoT's are far superior for healing people up, and there's a lot of them. The fights and healing mechanics now don't make room for a large cast, HP bars go up and down a lot, the chances that a large heal cast will be wasted is too big.

That's why Penance is so much better when used offensively. If you cast it on the raid, it heals a single target for 3 ticks, and maybe that target got some assistance from other healers and your 3rd tick goes to waste. When used on the boss it will seek the most injured target and heal it untill it's not the most injured target anyore and use the last tick on someone else.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8685
hey^ play nice with the other kids in this sandbox.

Still wishing the team would see that chain casting atonement is the problem, not the percentage of healing it does. We still don't use archangel because sitting at 5 stacks evangelism is mana efficient and not that penalizing numerically because of the damage modifier. Weaving atonement spells in between real heals is a thing of the past because we can spam these cheap smites indefinitely, so long as we're just barely meeting the healing needs of the encounter.

So why aren't we just scrapping the mana reduction from evangelism instead of tinkering with the output of these spells?


Because there's nothing wrong with us having a fast, cheap way of healing. I've never really understood your love of Heal, or your hatred of Atonement. One thing I will say is that I've gotten away from sitting at 5 stacks perpetually. That really isn't worthwhile in a 25 man situation, though I can understand why it might be in a 10 man.


I don't have an issue with fast, cheap heals....but the devs seem to since it goes against their triage revamp for healers in Cata. It's always seemed odd that Smite is such a fast cast yet can hit for close to the same as Heal AND add to the damage on a Boss. No wonder Heal is ignored. It's interesting that instead of nerfing the healing they didn't just increase the cast time.

All the talk of heal sniping makes me miss Heal assignments and down ranking just a little. Seems like the concern is less about saving a life now than it is having your heal counted on the meters. I know that's a segue.
Edited by Indyana on 4/6/2013 11:11 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I don't have an issue with fast, cheap heals....but the devs seem to since it goes against their triage revamp for healers in Cata. It's always seemed odd that Smite is such a fast cast yet can hit for close to the same as Heal AND add to the damage on a Boss. No wonder Heal is ignored. It's interesting that instead of nerfing the healing they didn't just increase the cast time.

All the talk of heal sniping makes me miss Heal assignments and down ranking just a little. Seems like the concern is less about saving a life now than it is having your heal counted on the meters. I know that's a segue.


If my heal is sniped, exactly how is it saving anyone? Something that goes to overheal is pointless. That's why I don't like Heal - not only will it never save anyone (it literally does not hit for enough to matter in this tier of content), but it doesn't even contribute anything past Grace stacks, which is a pointless mechanic anyway unless you are tank healing (and if you are tank healing, why aren't you stacking them with Penance? o_O).

Heal would be ignored even if they raised the cast time on Smite. I hate the spell. It's too slow. And if have fast, cheap heals goes "against" the "triage" model that Blizz was trying to push down our throats, I would really like to know why Monks get so many instant-cast spells, many of which are dirt-cheap. Because if that doesn't break the bank, I don't know what does.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8685
I don't have an issue with fast, cheap heals....but the devs seem to since it goes against their triage revamp for healers in Cata. It's always seemed odd that Smite is such a fast cast yet can hit for close to the same as Heal AND add to the damage on a Boss. No wonder Heal is ignored. It's interesting that instead of nerfing the healing they didn't just increase the cast time.

All the talk of heal sniping makes me miss Heal assignments and down ranking just a little. Seems like the concern is less about saving a life now than it is having your heal counted on the meters. I know that's a segue.


If my heal is sniped, exactly how is it saving anyone? Something that goes to overheal is pointless. That's why I don't like Heal - not only will it never save anyone (it literally does not hit for enough to matter in this tier of content), but it doesn't even contribute anything past Grace stacks, which is a pointless mechanic anyway unless you are tank healing (and if you are tank healing, why aren't you stacking them with Penance? o_O).

Heal would be ignored even if they raised the cast time on Smite. I hate the spell. It's too slow. And if have fast, cheap heals goes "against" the "triage" model that Blizz was trying to push down our throats, I would really like to know why Monks get so many instant-cast spells, many of which are dirt-cheap. Because if that doesn't break the bank, I don't know what does.


Read what you said in your first sentence and think how that sounds. The only way a heal is sniped is if someone else already healed them to full. They didn't need saving so the only thing lost is your pride. If your heal hit first then you would have sniped the heal from someone else.

It has nothing to do with wanting fast heals to save someone like we had to in Wrath...it's about getting your heal in before someone else which is how I read most of the discussion here about Atonement vs. Heal. I wasn't talking about the merits of Heal just lamenting the state of healing right now...hence the segue comment.

Why are you bringing up Monks btw? Unless they're channeling their heals fit in with the Triage model. Enveloping is the big, slow heal, Surging is the Fast, Expensive heal and Soothing is the slow (channeled) cheap heal. Are you talking about Healing Spheres or Glyphed Surging Mists?

Monks are very different than Disc Priests since their Damage to Healing mechanic is separate from their traditional healing for the most part. It's either/or for them.
Edited by Indyana on 4/6/2013 1:49 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
Read what you said in your first sentence and think how that sounds. The only way a heal is sniped is if someone else already healed them to full. They didn't need saving so the only thing lost is your pride.

I think anyone's pride could stand the sniped long-cast heal *if* they got back the cast-time and mana wasted :)

But since you don't, you have lost a lot more by overhealing than just your pride. You've lost the opportunity to heal another player that might've needed it AND the mana you might need to heal someone else later down the line. That's huge, and not just a matter of pride.

04/06/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Indyana
It has nothing to do with wanting fast heals to save someone like we had to in Wrath...it's about getting your heal in before someone else

It's about being effective, yes. And if your tools make you ineffective, again it's not just that someone else "beat you" so you feel bad. You've wasted time and mana, too.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I was going to respond, Indy, but Dliver made my point for me. I don't enjoy wasting my time and my mana on meaningless heals.
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