New PTR build - Atonement nerf.

100 Blood Elf Priest
8060
Dude, even raising Smite by 30% wouldn't make me stop casting it. Look how much freaking Spirit I have. Do you honestly think it would make any difference at all to players at my gear level or higher? Seriously?


*Anyone in a decent amount of ToT gear (which anyone with a raid guild in which it would actually matter should have by now, even if it's only valor gear.)

That would really only hurt undergeared people or fresh 90s, as she says.

And of course it's the focal point of our healing, Tampa. It's a spammable smart heal that hits fairly hard and fills the niche that disc has always been lacking in. quick spot healing to 2-3 people. The only way to get me to stop using it is to nerf it completely to the ground.

Personally, I don't think this nerf is to make us stop casting atonement. It's a straight output nerf, plain and simple. If you think about it, it was to be expected. Penance got buffed by a fair margin, which inflates atonement numbers. This is actually going to take us down to just below the numbers we woulda had in this gear in 5.1. (spellpower scaling, ya know.)

It's not that bad, the ability will still be there and hey, our overall damage isn't getting nerfed.
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90 Human Priest
12420
An 80% damage to heal translation isn't too bad considering a few things:
1. If you're dps'ing it's probably because you're in a low healing phase of the fight and would probably be just dps'ing whether a heal was tied to the spells or not. If significant healing needs to happen then why are you dps'ing in the first place?
2. Jin'rokh, Horridon, Tortos and Primordius have damage modifiers to them so 80% of a lot is still a lot.
3. Refer to #1.
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100 Night Elf Priest
10160
I raid 10's with a pair of Holy pallies. Our spread AoE can be... underwhelming. I'm reasonably sure I'll feel the nerf, but I've already had to pick up a Holy OS for the massive AoE fights so it probably won't make much of a difference to my playstyle and I will remain MS Disc because I prefer it.

And yes, I understand that if our raid requires enough healing to make me go Holy while 3 healing then someone is doing something wrong. I can't afford to be picky about our raiders so I do what I have to to make things work.

Cheers
Zen
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13745
Cry about the small nerf. Priest are op its np
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90 Undead Priest
15830
Atonement and all smart heals are a horrible thing. Mix in the massive amount of gimmick fights (fights with damage modifiers) and a class that has no other raid heal and you get Disc Priests spamming Atonement.

Please for the love of god nerf it... but only if you give us an actual way to raid heal. In fact, please take us all back to the days of BC healing and remove all smart heals except chain heal from the game and require healers to once again use their brains.

The big question is... what happens if next tier has a lack of gimmick fights with damage modifiers? Disc won't be doing so well any more. and that 20% nerf is going to be felt a lot harder.
Edited by Poena on 4/14/2013 5:11 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Atonement and all smart heals are a horrible thing. Mix in the massive amount of gimmick fights (fights with damage modifiers) and a class that has no other raid heal and you get Disc Priests spamming Atonement.

Please for the love of god nerf it... but only if you give us an actual way to raid heal. In fact, please take us all back to the days of BC healing and remove all smart heals except chain heal from the game and require healers to once again use their brains.


You know that we had Circle of Healing in BC, right? And...I could swear we at Wild Growth, too. :)
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90 Undead Priest
15830
Atonement and all smart heals are a horrible thing. Mix in the massive amount of gimmick fights (fights with damage modifiers) and a class that has no other raid heal and you get Disc Priests spamming Atonement.

Please for the love of god nerf it... but only if you give us an actual way to raid heal. In fact, please take us all back to the days of BC healing and remove all smart heals except chain heal from the game and require healers to once again use their brains.


You know that we had Circle of Healing in BC, right? And...I could swear we at Wild Growth, too. :)


Yes, and CoH in BC was a party heal. It didn't become a smart heal until 3.0 (and the dark days of healing were brought upon the world... one in which healers had to think less and less to heal).
Edited by Poena on 4/14/2013 5:13 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Yes, and CoH in BC was a party heal. It didn't become a smart heal until 3.0 (and the dark days of healing were brought upon the world... one in which healers had to think less and less to heal).


Hmm.

I don't quite remember it that way, but it was a loooooooong time ago.

Man, I gotta tell you, I never think about what I'm doing when I'm healing. Nope. I just press buttons, and people get healed. It's amazing!
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98 Human Priest
16945
This still isn't going to change how often I chain cast dps spells. It's too quick. It's too mana efficient. Even with lower healing, 80% or even 70%, I'll just spam those spells as long as I'm still meeting the healing demands at that point in time.

If we need a refresher course from Cataclysm, atonement spells:
- evangelism spells had a longer cast time at 2 sec
- smites/holy fires used to cost more mana
- atonement heals only hit targets in melee range
- archangel was only a maximum 15% boost to healing
- penance didn't do atonement healing or stack evangelism
- stacking evangelism didn't reduce the mana cost of the spells that stacked it. Instead, it gave a chunk of mana (a little less than the cost of 5 smites) back based on how many stacks of evangelism you consumed
- did significantly less healing compared to the other spells that could be cast (gheal, poh, pw:s, pen, pom)
- atonement heals did not get a bonus from archangel, nor did they work with targets who had stacks of grace
- the archangel healing bonus only affected heals, not shields
- at first, holy fire didn't even do atonement healing or stack evangelism. The playstyle purely wove smites in between better spells

so with that history lesson, hopefully you can see that:
- atonement heals were not taken seriously when other heals were much better.
- losing your stacks of evangelism was just lost mana because you didn't activate archangel for the mana back portion.
- archangel wasn't that big of a throughput increase.
- there was not really any incentive for staying at 5 stacks of evangelism unless you needed to delay using archangel briefly.
- the playstyle initially was about weaving smites in between other spell casts. Using holy fire and glyph of smite for the dps rotation and increase wasn't even a thing until the firelands patch.
- if you wanted cheap evangelism builders, holy fire was the only smart choice because smite cost way too much. This meant archangel once per minute with 10 seconds between each holy fire.

So the healing output of atonement is one thing to nerf. But don't forget about balancing the healing per second and healing per mana of smites compared to those other spells we can use (poh, gheal, fheal, pom, pw:s, and even heal). Don't forget that we have not one (holy fire), but two (enter penance) steller evangelism builders now. Don't forget there is no opportunity cost to building stacks and staying at 5 stacks of evangelism because we get a mana discount now instead of a mana chunk back. Don't forget how easy the new smart heals are for spreading over a raid with the new faster cast times and the 40 yard range. Don't discredit how good the new archangel (25% increase to both healing AND absorbs) is in terms of 'mandatory' play.

^all of those need to be addressed if you want to stop not just me, but all disc priests from spamming atonement spells. Just one healing nerf isn't going to cut it. I don't have a beef with dpsing to heal, I just think maximizing our dps for healing or casting dps spells at the exclusion of actual healing spells needs to be fixed.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
^all of those need to be addressed if you want to stop not just me, but all disc priests from spamming atonement spells. Just one healing nerf isn't going to cut it. I don't have a beef with dpsing to heal, I just think maximizing our dps for healing or casting dps spells at the exclusion of actual healing spells needs to be fixed.


I think that would be better addressed by making our actual healing spells worth casting than by nerfing Atonement.
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90 Undead Priest
15830
04/14/2013 05:15 PMPosted by Tiriel
Yes, and CoH in BC was a party heal. It didn't become a smart heal until 3.0 (and the dark days of healing were brought upon the world... one in which healers had to think less and less to heal).


Hmm.

I don't quite remember it that way, but it was a loooooooong time ago.

Man, I gotta tell you, I never think about what I'm doing when I'm healing. Nope. I just press buttons, and people get healed. It's amazing!


http://www.wowwiki.com/Circle_of_Healing

We were also promised way back then that Blizz was trying to eliminate party heals... Guess who's the only one left?

I'm not saying we don't have to think, I'm saying we have to think a LOT LESS.

So the healing output of atonement is one thing to nerf. But don't forget about balancing the healing per second and healing per mana of smites compared to those other spells we can use (poh, gheal, fheal, pom, pw:s, and even heal). Don't forget that we have not one (holy fire), but two (enter penance) steller evangelism builders now. Don't forget there is no opportunity cost to building stacks and staying at 5 stacks of evangelism because we get a mana discount now instead of a mana chunk back. Don't forget how easy the new smart heals are for spreading over a raid with the new faster cast times and the 40 yard range. Don't discredit how good the new archangel (25% increase to both healing AND absorbs) is in terms of 'mandatory' play.

^all of those need to be addressed if you want to stop not just me, but all disc priests from spamming atonement spells. Just one healing nerf isn't going to cut it. I don't have a beef with dpsing to heal, I just think maximizing our dps for healing or casting dps spells at the exclusion of actual healing spells needs to be fixed.


You forgot to add that Disc's raid healing needs to be addressed if our only raid healing is nerfed. The reason we cast Atonement heals is because we have no other options most of the time when it comes to raid healing. We only have 1 other raid heal and it's a party only heal... Maybe the reason we cast Atonement heals to raid heal is because we really don't have any better options (and because half the fights in the new instance have damage modifiers).
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98 Human Priest
16945
Oh no, I'm well aware if ^that suddenly happens and we do get axed, discipline will be significantly behind in output (theoretically).

Even as of right now, on my spreadsheets and sims, disc is pushing very low potential healing capabilities. But the spec is winning the 'effective healing' epeen contest, so that point is more of a "should absorbs do less healing than other healers?" kind of debate. I didn't want to bring it up because it would derail the thread. But I know if this spell hits the dirt, the only spell that will still hold a really high value is power word: shield. And we probably don't want to go back to spamming that.
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8 Dwarf Priest
0
i don't think healing is ever going to be as interesting again as it was in BC, for any class.

just look at monks. monk single target, like any class's single target, is basically fine, but their aoe has less player choice involved than any other healing spec to date. just keep RM on cooldown, and when aoe dmg hits, at least 60% of your raid (in 10 man) will get healed, but its pretty random. more if thunder focus tea obv.

single target healing is the only place a healer might need significant mental processing power, but even then its usually a choice between fast heal/big heal. that's not much variety. the monk choice is expensive heal/free heal (if chi). aoe heals, more often than not, is just choosing a location on the ground or an initial target. still not a lot of processing power required.

i think the hubbub over atonement in particular kind of misses the larger point about smart healing in general. even PoH is pretty smart, or lenient enough to be lumped in with them. if we have a theoretical game with no smart heals, healing may become more interesting. but it would have to be primarily single target or positional healing (i.e. more healing rain type spells), and the incoming damage would have to be slowed down to allow players to use mostly single target heals to keep up.

this would finally allow players to be "in control" of who gets healed, i.e. the player is making the choice so healing is "fun" and "interesting" again. but i'm not sure the developers know how to slow healing down that much, or if what would result if they did would still be a fun PvE raiding environment in today's world. can we really go back to BC era dmg pattern design?
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
So the healing output of atonement is one thing to nerf. But don't forget about balancing the healing per second and healing per mana of smites compared to those other spells we can use (poh, gheal, fheal, pom, pw:s, and even heal). Don't forget that we have not one (holy fire), but two (enter penance) steller evangelism builders now. Don't forget there is no opportunity cost to building stacks and staying at 5 stacks of evangelism because we get a mana discount now instead of a mana chunk back. Don't forget how easy the new smart heals are for spreading over a raid with the new faster cast times and the 40 yard range. Don't discredit how good the new archangel (25% increase to both healing AND absorbs) is in terms of 'mandatory' play.

^all of those need to be addressed if you want to stop not just me, but all disc priests from spamming atonement spells. Just one healing nerf isn't going to cut it. I don't have a beef with dpsing to heal, I just think maximizing our dps for healing or casting dps spells at the exclusion of actual healing spells needs to be fixed.


Quoted for emphasis.

I think that would be better addressed by making our actual healing spells worth casting than by nerfing Atonement.


They should do both.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8485
I don't see any reason for why Blizzard would want to nerf Atonement. yes its getting over used in LFR but it normal and heroic its hardly used at all.

I have downed the first 3 bosses in normal ToT using Atonement/Real heals and if you ask me it doesn't need that 20% nerf.

keep atonement how it is.
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90 Undead Priest
15830
Mistweavers are able to do Double the DPS as a Disc Priest and a larger percentage of their total healing done from DPShealing than Disc Priests.

So why is it again that Disc's DPS2Heal output needs a nerf?

Example:
Here is an attempt at Lei Shen 25 last night. We were having DPS issues, so our healers tried to help out.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wvk6ambh4myxusz9/details/26/?s=8994&e=9591

Our monk was doing 2x the DPS output I was and 30% more healing.

My DPS heals accounted for 25% of my output.
His DPS heals account for 48.2% of his output.

So monks are doing 2x the DPS output of Disc Priests and nearly double the percentage of their total healing is coming from said DPS.

Sounds like we are going in the reverse direction. Disc Priests need a DPS output buff, not a nerf.
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98 Human Priest
16945
So monks are doing 2x the DPS output of Disc Priests and nearly double the percentage of their total healing is coming from said DPS.

^^That's a fact that made me defecate in my trousers when I was playing the ptr before this patch. I can link up the threads I brought this up in if needed. I thought atonement was going to be too much dps if you geared crit and haste and ran with minimal spirit (check the http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8569599170 thread to see some of us abusing that), but then I played around on the new monk rotation.

Even with glancing blows, no cleaves (which drops blackout kicks significantly), and low dps stats, these monks are doing much more damage than priests. And with muscle memory and mana tea, they can do all of this with little to no spirit. Now, you don't get an archangel booster from dpsing as a monk, but the monk spellkit isn't balanced around a 25% throughput boost on a 30 second cooldown like discipline is. I can attempt to dig up the blue quote verifying the MoP disc being balanced around archangel use.

Anyways, I was worried disc would be class stacked because of the potential for high dps and easier healing through smart heal spam, but then I stopped worrying because monks are actually first in the line of fire for class stacking if you're thinking with that perspective. And arguably, the monk dps 'drawbacks' (melee range, no absorbs) could theoretically keep it in check.

At the end of the day, I think atonement spells need to be balanced within the other priest-specific spells first. Then maybe a numbers check is needed. Comparing the class to monks is just a whole other different kind of monster.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
04/15/2013 03:39 PMPosted by Angelism
I don't see any reason for why Blizzard would want to nerf Atonement. yes its getting over used in LFR but it normal and heroic its hardly used at all.

I don't know about Heroics, but in normal mode...I've been making pretty heavy use of it on most fights. Even Megaera. Almost every fight has some period of relatively low (or at least low enough) damage to give you plenty of time to make use of Atonement, or a damage modifier of some kind to make Atonement spam much stronger.

Part of it's the T14 4p plus the Penance glyph. It makes Atonement spam highly mobile and efficient.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wvk6ambh4myxusz9/details/26/?s=8994&e=9591

Our monk was doing 2x the DPS output I was and 30% more healing.

My DPS heals accounted for 25% of my output.
His DPS heals account for 48.2% of his output.

So monks are doing 2x the DPS output of Disc Priests and nearly double the percentage of their total healing is coming from said DPS.

Sounds like we are going in the reverse direction. Disc Priests need a DPS output buff, not a nerf.


57+% of his damage was from aoe (ignoring any cleaving on blackout kick), most of that (43%) from cooldowns-torpedo & burst (I'm guessing there are a fair number of adds on that fight-haven't seen it yet). Since you don't really have equivalent moves for torpedo and SCK (counting DS as ~= to burst) it stands to reason that in those situations a monk would out-perform you, dps & heal-by-dps wise. I'm reasonably sure if you look at a single target situation the numbers would look far different.
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90 Undead Priest
15830
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wvk6ambh4myxusz9/details/26/?s=8994&e=9591

Our monk was doing 2x the DPS output I was and 30% more healing.

My DPS heals accounted for 25% of my output.
His DPS heals account for 48.2% of his output.

So monks are doing 2x the DPS output of Disc Priests and nearly double the percentage of their total healing is coming from said DPS.

Sounds like we are going in the reverse direction. Disc Priests need a DPS output buff, not a nerf.


57+% of his damage was from aoe (ignoring any cleaving on blackout kick), most of that (43%) from cooldowns-torpedo & burst (I'm guessing there are a fair number of adds on that fight-haven't seen it yet). Since you don't really have equivalent moves for torpedo and SCK (counting DS as ~= to burst) it stands to reason that in those situations a monk would out-perform you, dps & heal-by-dps wise. I'm reasonably sure if you look at a single target situation the numbers would look far different.


You mean it would look like them doing the same damage as me?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wvk6ambh4myxusz9/analyze/dd/source/?s=8994&e=9156
The below is P1 of the fight where we were trying to push and beat the 4th Thunderstruck. Zero adds in this phase, and really little damage.

So monks do similar single target DPS, and double the AoE. They heal for similar from DPS (more when they get to AoE). The point is, Disc shouldn't be nerfed... at least without compensation. As mentioned above, I'd be happy (and would finally enjoy healing again) if they got rid of all smart heals (if that's what the game was balanced around).
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