New PTR build - Atonement nerf.

39 Worgen Warlock
0
I'm the top healer in my guild, and most of my throughput on a good portion of fights comes from Atonement and Divine Aegis. I use PW:S regularly, and PoM, Divine Star, and Prayer of Healing situationally, and my cooldowns and "oh !@#$" buttons, but outside of that I sit on a rotation like a damage class would.

The 5.2 nerf to monk tanks hit us so hard it forced our main tank to reroll. Hitting a class so hard that a main raider has to reroll two patches in a row is ridiculous. At least if you're gonna nerf our healing to the point that a disc priest isn't a healing class any more, buff our damage so that we can be considered a damage class instead. With that nerf we won't have a role in raids at all.


I'm just bringing attention to this post because I didn't get to when it was originally posted for how ludicrous it is.

In 5.2, monk tanks were buffed, if anything. Unless you were burning all your chi on Chi Waves that frequently didn't bounce back to you, or more than half of your chi on Chi Burst I guess. Which meant you weren't Purifying, Guarding, and Shuffle was probably dropping off a lot. So yeah, if you were doing that you got nerfed.

But if you were doing that you were 1/10th the effectiveness of an actual honest to goodness drunktank, so...
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90 Troll Priest
10205
So I'm surprise nobody talked about this "third solution" why not give atonement like mechanic to every class? Leveling a resto druid now and doing 5 man has heal is dreadfully boring and slow (considering I'm regularly #1-2 DPS in 5 man) without atonement. And it's not like were actually using atonement to push the really good number out anyway, in most case where people talk about "getting beat off by the disc because of atonement, they would only get smashed even more if the priest was serious and use his entire arsenal.

Oh also something rarely mentioned, disc priest (along with holy priest) are probably the most complex healing class atm, just count the number of spell they have to jungle with. Again with my resto druid example, I was shocked that I could fit all my healbot keybinding with only normal click and one key modification (2 x 5=10). On my priest I have to use more than two key modification >.>
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
04/03/2013 08:21 PMPosted by Meit
So I'm surprise nobody talked about this "third solution" why not give atonement like mechanic to every class?


This is almost certainly the eventual solution, because unless Atonement does a very pitiful amount of healing you will always gain a significant amount of DPS by bringing DPS healers like Disc/Mistweaver, and thus having a DPS healer you can complete fights with gives you a pretty colossal advantage.
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100 Human Priest
19420
When I look at healing required, it's always significantly low (to me) compared to what I can theoretically push. If I focus on atonement, I can meet anything up to 50k required without stressing out my co-healer, and I can steal all the healing that's less than that number. I can do this indefinitely because atonement at 5 stacks evangelism is efficient. So either the amount of healing I can do needs to change, or the longevity needs to change. Most know I'm in full support of the longevity solution, but this change goes the other way >.>

That mythical 50% of a dps and 50% of a healer ratio is off currently. I'm definitely 50% of a dps, but I'm more than 50% of a healer, so I guess this is band-aiding that problem. But we're still going to spam the shiz out of atonement all the time every day in place of direct heals as long as it's this cheap in terms of mana.

So I have to use healing cd's when my expected healing contribution exceeds 40k? Okay, done. This isn't changing the way I play currently at all. And I hate that. In my world, Smites are for Archangel, not for filler or light damage. Archangel is proactive and disc-y.

I want my spells sequences to look like they did last xpac: spell, bubble, borrowed time instant, another borrowed time instant, casted spell, smite, spell, spell, bubble, borrowed time instant, smite, bubble, bubble.
My cast sequence for this expansion looks like this: bubble, smite, smite, smite, smite (13 seconds later), bubble, smite, smite, smite etc.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
That mythical 50% of a dps and 50% of a healer ratio is off currently. I'm definitely 50% of a dps, but I'm more than 50% of a healer, so I guess this is band-aiding that problem. But we're still going to spam the shiz out of atonement all the time every day in place of direct heals as long as it's this cheap in terms of mana.


This may be the case if content is overhealed, but there's no way Atonement alone makes up 50% of a DPS (rather impossible, actually, and probably closer to 20% on most non-gimmick fights) or more than 50% of a healer.
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8 Dwarf Priest
0
This may be the case if content is overhealed, but there's no way Atonement alone makes up 50% of a DPS (rather impossible, actually, and probably closer to 20% on most non-gimmick fights) or more than 50% of a healer.


i think his point was based on how much healing is required, not theoretical maximums. he didn't say, however, whether he was talking 25m or 10, or lfr, normal, or heroic.

what is true is that the healing required in lfr and normal modes is pretty low, though, so disc is easily going to get by with large volumes of atonement play there (and make other healers look bad while doing it - though its not really the fault of the players, that is just the design inherent to the system's mechanics). and damage intake may be lower in 10's as well, so its possible atonement is more useful in 10's relative to 25's.

and its interesting to see some hints of possible future problems here in the comments ppl have brought up about issues of gameplay in 25 vs 10 man formats. it kind of reminds me of how the issues with PvE vs PvP eventually played out, i.e. it turned into a balancing nightmare. i wonder if the same will be true for the existence of 2 separate raid formats.
Edited by Kolas on 4/4/2013 7:47 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
i think his point was based on how much healing is required, not theoretical maximums. he didn't say, however, whether he was talking 25m or 10, or lfr, normal, or heroic.


You're right. Atonement's numbers are probably a little more balanced in a 25 man, outside of gimmicky fights, as we have much more opportunities to use our full toolkit.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/4/2013 8:06 AM PDT
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100 Undead Death Knight
8545
Lol this is atonement nerf is only a small taste of what MW fistweavers have been dealing with

Relish it!
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90 Human Priest
17065
This may be the case if content is overhealed, but there's no way Atonement alone makes up 50% of a DPS (rather impossible, actually, and probably closer to 20% on most non-gimmick fights) or more than 50% of a healer.


If a priest is doing nothing but atonement and geared for nothing but atonement, I'd think the ratio is closer to the 40% DPS and 60% healer, fight depending. It is a little closer to 40% DPS and 80% healer if it's in a 10 where you only have 10 guys to bounce atonement off of. But in a 25 during phases of random spike damage all over the raid where atonement is really only a disc's viable option (outside of T6), while we stand 'decent', we're are not 'OP' as some folks are saying. Unless that monk or druid or paladin are basically twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing, atonement isn't amazingly strong for random raid spikes in a 25 - it's efficient and powerful, but

Twisted does 10s so most of his statements, theorycrafting, observations are all spoken from a 10 POV with him being the swing healer, I think, unless times changed.

04/04/2013 02:53 AMPosted by Twistedmind
I can meet anything up to 50k required without stressing out my co-healer, and I can steal all the healing that's less than that number.


One look down US-EU WOL and all I see are 150+++ across the board. 50k is hardly 50% :S
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90 Human Priest
11345
You can do a ton of damage sitting at 5 stacks of evangelism and just tunneling the boss. This isn't a very good way to play for anything other than trivial damage situations though.

Trading some of your weak damage gcds (see: smite) for PoM, L90 talent, rapture, using SS, and lining up archangel to use it right before you send out pom / L90 / SS sacrifices a bit of damage while pretty much doubling your healing. This causes disc's total contribution to be way over 100% of a "pure" dps or healer.
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90 Human Priest
17065
I don't think I mind the atonement nerf much..it does sting. Atonement is basically our bread and butter between CDs. It's not like we are going to chain Heal or GH because of it. A 20% on our bread and butter feels pretty painful.

Sort of wish I have a different button to press to 'heal random raid damage' that doesn't do damage but heals for more.

Or maybe one day I'll get that beacon I always wish for that prioritizes an atonement target >.>
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13945
I don't think this is intended to affect the way Disc plays. I think it's just intended to be a straight output nerf.

I could be wrong, of course. But I like to pretend that I think the Blizz devs understand why Disc single-target direct heals aren't being used.
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100 Undead Priest
10715
There is something a little unfair about having the DPS output of a tank. It's also unfair that we can spam Atonement and have little to no regard for our raid's safety because it's so powerful that it can keep people up even through relatively strong damage input phases. Maybe I'll throw a Shield or PoM or Cascade around, but the only reason I stop Atonement is when I can pop Archangel and spam PoH into a stacked cluster of people, so perhaps the numbers are too high for Atonement.

That being said I don't see a legitimate replacement. This feels like a straight up 20% nerf to the HPS and HPM of our most widely used healing source. It's going to hurt pretty bad, and there are going to be a number of situations where "spam Atonement" doesn't work anymore which means we're going to be using our very inefficient heals even more, which in turn means we're losing 20% efficiency on Atonement *and* our spell selection is going to be even worse.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
maybe this is to pave the way for disc priests getting a damage benefit from pvp power. /crossesfingers


Are you like, the only other PvPer in this thread?

These things don't surprise me at all - they said they'd be experimenting with Battle Fatigue changes and PvP power changes for healers. They've never been good at testing PvP changes, but always good about PvE Changes. So my gut says the Devs have the "Idea of how it should work in PvP" and are testing out the impacts to PvE for Balance purposes.

Disc used to be able to put out some offensive pressure in the arena, but lost a lot of that in MoP. So now penance hits harder, Power INfusion gets a 5% damage buff - this helps us Disc get back there. But now it seems to either be too much for PvE and so they need to balance it better, or figure out a new solution.

So I wouldn't go too crazy over this yet.
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100 Undead Priest
10715

Disc used to be able to put out some offensive pressure in the arena, but lost a lot of that in MoP. So now penance hits harder, Power INfusion gets a 5% damage buff - this helps us Disc get back there. But now it seems to either be too much for PvE and so they need to balance it better, or figure out a new solution.


I don't think Disc is *ever* going back there.

Remember it's not just a matter of damage. Our CC used to be the best, arguably behind a Druid, but now other classes like a Paladin can execute CC chains that make most DPS classes cry with envy. Even if we get a massive damage buff, our pressure is not going to be anything stellar and frankly we're the closest thing to a purely defensive healer right now. We have basically flip flopped playstyle with TBC Paladins, only straying from our pillar to contribute one CC than running back so we can turtle and not die.

It's sad.
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90 Undead Priest
8040
Lets debunk a few myths:

You can use only Penance/Solace/Smite to heal: False! Unless you're already running too many healers, or vastly outgear he content.

Atonement-Heavy Disc is 50% dps, 50% healer: False! See numbers below. 10M, 2-3 healing ToT progression fights. Disc is a 100% healing class that uses (3) damage spells to proc smart heals.



Jin'rokh - 47,753 (DPS Classes were 130k+)
Horridon - 62,947 (DPS Classes were 100-150k)
Counsel of Elders - 30,781 (DPS classes were 96-112k)
Tortos - 39,990 (DPS classes were 91-221k)
Megera - 23,363 (DPS classes were 92-106k)
Ji-Kun - 41,858 (DPS classes were 70-115k)
Durumu - 37,702 (DPS classes were 82-109)



Disc does more damage than tanks: False! If this is happening, your tanks are doing something wrong.
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100 Undead Priest
10715
Linking your own numbers isn't definitive proof, nor is it debunking anything. I can show you logs of myself where I'm right at or a little above 50% of the damage done by ranking DPS. I'm often very competitive with tanks who most definitely know what they're doing.

The 50/50 DPS/Healer role is quite accurate, but what it doesn't tell you is that a Priest who stops to be 100% healer for some parts of the fight (stacking spirit shell, dispels, stabilizing the raid during spike damage, etc) is going to lose significant uptime and thus appear to be more like a 25/75 ratio.

Ultimately much of this depends on composition. If I were 2 healing all 10man content, I don't think I'd be using as much Atonement as I do. 3 healing the content allows a much greater level of flexibility, which is where Disc really shines.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
10205
That being said I don't see a legitimate replacement. This feels like a straight up 20% nerf to the HPS and HPM of our most widely used healing source. It's going to hurt pretty bad, and there are going to be a number of situations where "spam Atonement" doesn't work anymore which means we're going to be using our very inefficient heals even more, which in turn means we're losing 20% efficiency on Atonement *and* our spell selection is going to be even worse.


I've seen a common thread here, so thought i'd throw in my opinion. Atonement is a good tool yes, but outside of gimmick dps modifier fights, atonement is not used when output is needed most, which means the nerf will effect you most heavily when output is not as big of a concern.

If you really want to maximize output, you will drop atonement for other higher hps options. If atonement is the majority of your healing done, it means the damage intake is so low that you are performing dramatically below your potential. In reality this nerf will translate into you switching away from atonement at slightly lower damage thresholds, which may lower our mana longevity slightly, but again when output really matters, we aren't atonment healing anyways.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-080nra29o7otnu3j/analyze/hd/source/?s=2450&e=2850

This is just a log of our latest megaera kill, where I was healing pretty close to full-out the entire time. Atonement was 10% of my total output. This nerf would barely effect me at all when it really mattered.

Summary: we are still viable with this nerf, and it really does little to lower our output when it's really needed.
Edited by Mythrose on 4/4/2013 4:35 PM PDT
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