An In-depth Guide to Feral PvP (5.4 Updated)

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90 Tauren Druid
11330
Sticky Please.
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90 Troll Druid
10635
Great guide! I'm pretty excited to see one put up. I do have a quick question that I've been trying to find but can't for some reason. This may sound silly, but I swear people with around the same gear I have (mix of 458/476) seem to have -way- more health than I do. I saw a warlock who was on my team that was full Malev, no Tyrannical, and was over 400k health. Same buffs as me, and I was only at ~368. (No shammy healing buff either) I'm just wondering what the deal with that is.
Edited by Glaeduru on 4/2/2013 10:11 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
Just the stamina difference on the gear some classes get. Plate classes and warlocks will have a lot more health than we do.
Edited by Kals on 4/2/2013 11:05 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
10635
Thanks Kals! Also, I've noticed that prowl seems to be dropping my speed by more than 30% I have a normal speed of 155% and when I go prowl (without glyph) I get bumped all the way down to 109% Is that normal or am I missing something?
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90 Night Elf Druid
6175


So in summary:
AGI Rip: ~56733 Damage over 16 seconds
AGI HT: ~68584 Health Restored

PvP Power Rip: ~73196 Damage over 16 seconds
PvP Power HT: ~79897 Health restored

NOW WHO WANTS TO CHECK MY MATH?! :D


Your math is great, but doesn't agility also count toward mitigation (dodge)? And if I'm not mistaken PvP power does not.

P.S. Great guide
Edited by Hibernator on 4/2/2013 12:53 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500


So in summary:
AGI Rip: ~56733 Damage over 16 seconds
AGI HT: ~68584 Health Restored

PvP Power Rip: ~73196 Damage over 16 seconds
PvP Power HT: ~79897 Health restored

NOW WHO WANTS TO CHECK MY MATH?! :D


Your math is great, but doesn't agility also count toward mitigation (dodge)? And if I'm not mistaken PvP power does not.

P.S. Great guide


Meh I don't think the minimal amount of dodge that's granted to cats via AGI is worth the loss, but yeah I did forget that in the mathy post. Most of the time we die is due to a loss of control of our character (fear, stun) in which we're not dodging anyways.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6175

Meh I don't think the minimal amount of dodge that's granted to cats via AGI is worth the loss, but yeah I did forget that in the mathy post. Most of the time we die is due to a loss of control of our character (fear, stun) in which we're not dodging anyways.


Excellent point, sir, you are winning me over.
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90 Worgen Druid
13790
Minor nitpick, you say "Without Savage Roar up we're effectively only doing 70% of our damage" (and equivalently, we're doing 30% less without it).

However, with SR down we are doing 100/130 of our damage potential , which is 76.9% .
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
Yah I'm bad at math in that regard. :p

Subtracting percentages instead of actually doing the math is so much easier, namsayin'?

Fixed. Thanks.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
Bumping to help address some of the front page threads.
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90 Tauren Druid
8930
You should update your powershifting macro. Putting Frenzied Regeneration at the top will use any extra rage that you have left to heal you. Every little bit counts right?

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:1] Frenzied Regeneration
/cast [stance:1] !Bear Form
/cast [stance:2] !Aquatic Form
/cast [stance:3] !Cat Form
/cast [stance:4] !Travel Form
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90 Night Elf Druid
6955
I've been waiting on a good guide for the forums, hope it gets stickied.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
Ba-dump. As a side note my net is out til Thursday so I won't be able to make any responses/edits til then.
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90 Human Hunter
4910
I think your opener is a strong "safe" opener.

However i feel this is the strongest pressure opener.

-SR (1-2 seconds before open)
-Pounce
-MANGLE (not shred on the opener)
-TF (you'll be really low on energy at this point)
-Free ravage (Gets 15% bonus from TF and gives you a few seconds of energy ticks. Unless your mangle crits for 70-80k your target will also be above 80% health for the 50% increased crit)
-Rake
-Rip
-If mangle AND ravage both crit you will rip before you rake. Build 5 combo points from there and get a solid SR up.Try it and up vote

If you run with a stun class like a rogue you should open

-SR
-Mangle (get the snares up early and get your energy lower to let the regen kick in)
-Free Ravage (It would be nice to use it with TF, but your target will be sub 80% and getting a crit is far more important then 15% additional damage)
-Mangle
-TF
-This is where it will vary. If you are at 3-4 combo points rake. Are you now at 5 combo points? If so rip. If not shred/mangle (shred being optimal especially under a bleed and TF).
If after the TF you find that you are already at 5 combo points you'll want to rip THEN rake. Take this time to build your combo points up and get a solid 40 second SR up.

Edited for clarity.
Edited by Saarî on 4/7/2013 8:05 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
Hooray net is back up.

-SR (1-2 seconds before open)
-Pounce
-MANGLE (not shred on the opener)
-TF (you'll be really low on energy at this point)
-Free ravage (Gets 15% bonus from TF and gives you a few seconds of energy ticks. Unless your mangle crits for 70-80k your target will also be above 80% health for the 50% increased crit)
-Rake
-Rip
-If mangle AND ravage both crit you will rip before you rake. Build 5 combo points from there and get a solid SR up.


I don't really know why you'd want to Mangle on the opener. It's less damage for 5 less energy. If it was a DPE increase most feral PvE'ers would be using it over Shred. I also feel like you're using TF too early on that opener. You regen 10energy/sec base and globals are 1.5 seconds.

So after Pounce and Mangle's global's are done you're still at 50 energy (40 if you used Shred), causing a TF to over-cap you, even more so with the free Ravage being used after it. I can understand the want to get TF'd bleeds up for added pressure but if you're wanting to do that you're better off putting out another Shred to completely extinguish your energy, TF Rip, Rake, Ravage.

I can slightly see your point about ravage critting but look at it this way: most classes (with the exception of ones with higher health like warlocks and DK's in blood) even with fort have between 400k and 420k HP. 80% health for those would be ~350k HP, a loss of about 70k from the original. Just between your damage and partner damage on the opener you're putting out more than 70k damage very fast leading the ravage to not have that increased crit chance anyways.

In your second example you're also using TF when you're going to be at 60 energy making it a waste. Most players in 2s or 3s are going to peel your opener anyways (or as soon as possible) so using TF when it's going to push you over energy cap and you're liable to be CC'd seems a risky move to me.

TL;DR: I understand the want to get TF'd bleeds up as soon as possible and the need for a strong pressure opener but some of the use of TF seems too premature to be useful due to the nature of team-play. I understand energy isn't the easiest thing to manage in a PvP environment but proper energy use is where we'll shine.

If you dump your TF and such on the opener and then you have an opportunity to swap right after the opener (healer overextended to make sure his teammate was safe for example) you're not going to have much of anything to help with that energy regen besides what you've pooled.
Edited by Kals on 4/9/2013 10:56 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
5410
I don't really know why you'd want to Mangle on the opener. It's less damage for 5 less energy. If it was a DPE increase most feral PvE'ers would be using it over Shred. I also feel like you're using TF too early on that opener. You regen 10energy/sec base and globals are 1.5 seconds.


Feral GCDs are 1 second, not 1.5.

He is still using it way too early though, IMO. I don't even use TF for my first opener unless I need to.

My opener is usually something like:

Prowl > SR > 1 sec wait > Pounce > Rake > Ravage > Mangle > Rip > Root > Savage Roar > Faerie Fire > Mighty Bash > Mangle > Mangle > TF > Rake > Thrash > Rip.

Reasoning: Beginning is obvious. I like to save TF because when we apply our bleeds, we aren't doing much damage upfront, so people don't pop defensives (which is what we want) the only thing that hits like a truck is Ravage. So, if you apply all your bleeds then use the damage increase for upfront burst damage then they're forced to pop huge defensives or else they're out at least 200k.

Not to mention, I can't tell you how many times when I first started playing I would put all my bleeds fully buffed on a paladin or something and they would just divine shield leaving all the crap I used pointless. I like waiting until they pop CDs to use mine, including the itty bitty 30sec CD on TF.

Also, it lets you get through absorbs and random HoTs so you maximize your bleeds. :)

Plus, you still keep your burst for when your comp focuses someone.

P.S. Great guide, wish there was more math on the stat values on Agility vs. PVP Power vs. Resilience at higher levels though.

I was thinking the other day that Agility would be better with Tyrannical because it never loses it's value so the more of it the better; however, PvP Power does so if you stacked Agility and used trinket/points/waited for weapon proc/etc. then the bleeds you could apply would be absolutely ridiculous.

I've also started lowering the amount of Resilience gems I have simply because I find that my defensives are really nice now, plus heals are also ridiculous being specced into HotW. 80-300k HTs every 6 or 7 seconds is really nice.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
Derp, I don't think my brain was functioning when I wrote 1.5. Good catch.

I like to think I'm "decent" at math but I can never properly model WoW's spells, since it seems most of the information on them at WoWHead seems buggy, as does most of MMO-C's data.

The PvP power vs Resil vs AGI is actually more of a pure PvP based discussion (for all classes I mean). With the change to resilience to a linear model as opposed to exponential you're going to see pretty noticable gain changes (you'll see you're getting less % per point of resil) once you hit the 65-67% mark.

According to Eldacar's post and a few threads I've read from some of the avid PvP theorycrafters on AJ resilience is still going to be the stat to stack, even with the "nerf" to its scaling, it's just too good a defensive stat to pass up.

In terms of Power vs AGI that's less of something I can help out with in terms of math. It too scales linearly, but more of a beneficial matter than what resilience provides. 265 pvp power rating will always provide a 1% increase in damage. That 1% is just going to seem worse at higher ratings since you'll be going from something like 48% pvp power to 49% pvp power and it will "appear" you're not gaining much when you're actually gaining the same amount as you were when you didn't have any.

Thinking about it a little bit the only time AGI could out-damage PvP power is when you're naked (but somehow have a socket). Since PvP power is percent based, even if you had 90% PvP power 90% of nothing is still nothing. But then again we still have stats when we're naked so even that would be really close in terms of AGI vs Power.

In short, Resilience is still the king of survival stats, PVP power never loses it's value as a great stat, and unless you can somehow get more AGI than PvP power (I would imagine impossible via the 160 vs 320 gemming) it's probable to outshine it as it will consistently increase your damage by a percentage which fully complements the base AGI on your gear.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12205
Very good, very comprehensive. Any suggestions on 2's partners?
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
For double DPS I'd suggest Mage, Spriest or Hunter. Melee/Ranged is just a better combo for 2s than melee/melee. I've ran Feral/War with some success to around 1800 or so but it's a lot of babysitting your warrior's health after your initial kill attempt since they lack the defensives against things we can't stop (mostly high instant cast damage); though I will say the comp is pretty fun mongoing down most teams by just tunneling to about 1700.

For healer/DPS disc/feral is probably your best bet. I've had decent luck with Rsham and Hpal as well but (the word gets thrown around a lot but whatever) the synergy seems best between disc and feral.
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90 Worgen Druid
17805
Just the stamina difference on the gear some classes get. Plate classes and warlocks will have a lot more health than we do.

Stamina is normalized on gear via item level (plate elite season 13 chest gives 2130 stamina - leather elite season 13 chest gives 2130 stamina). Warlocks are just special.
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