There is only One Alpha dog.

90 Worgen Warlock
9455
Have you ever had a situation where you had an officer challenge you so hard on anything you decide upon for the guild.. in such a rude way.. that you end up regretting the decision in appointing them an officer.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
Have you ever had a situation where you had an officer challenge you so hard on anything you decide upon for the guild.. in such a rude way.. that you end up regretting the decision in appointing them an officer.


Yes I did, he was a founding member of the guild, and someone I respected, But he was some what abrasive, and was constantly complaining we were not progressing fast enough.

After one of his rants, About how we should be doing this instead of that ,With my Raid leader and another officer already not real happy with this guy because he challenged everything they asked him to do, I finally had a talk with the guy, and told him that we are what we are and that it sounds like he is not happy with that. I told him maybe we are not t he best fit for him and that he should look for a new home that was more inline with his expectations. because I had no intention of driving the guild in the direction of what he wanted.

He finally left after that of his own accord. But had he not left I would have removed him.
He was a good raider, but he was a real drag on moral, and overall we were better off without him and he was happier somewhere else.
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90 Dwarf Priest
14005
Hello Pissedjedi,

Oh yes I had an officer that bucked me on everything. I was Co-GM at the time and one of the founders of that guild. And I brought the person in (because he was so wow knowledable) I did not know him well but he seemed okay. The GM was not on alot and put everything in my hands and I gave him daily reports. He knew this fellow was a trouble maker but felt sorry for him. I spent four and half terrible years in conflict with him and it ended destroying a 400 person guild that was successful. This officer caused so many problems (did none of the work) and treated me and others terribly. There was always alot of complaints on the way he talked and treated people. He even hated I was Co GM, told me so and would remove my rank name constantly even from vent. He felt he should be Co GM. And sadly, one day in a very crucial matter between me and that officer the GM did not back me and I had no choice but to leave (which was a very sad day for me and deeply hurt). That officer became Co-GM and the guild quickly crumbled.

So this is what I learned:

First there should not be alot of challenge from your officer. The GM gives the vision and direction of the guild and officers carry those plans out. A guild charter on your website is very important. It lets people know boundaries and rules. It should be easy to read and not long winded. Then everyone will be on the same page.

I have what I call a "nucleus" that consists of my raid leader and co gm. We are very honest with each other. We appointed a few officers but they are not included on the main decision making level . They have functions such as recording logs for the raids. No disrespect is tolerated.

Your officer that is challenging everything is causing too much disruptiveness and weakens the guild. It's a team effort all going in the same direction.

Obviously your officers views and vision are so much different then yours perhaps he should seek another guild.

Hope this helps some. If I can be of anymore help don't hesitate to contact me on Khadgar. Good Luck
Edited by Nadeena on 3/31/2013 8:05 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warrior
5040
Sounds like you've got power issues, OP.
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90 Draenei Priest
17540
03/31/2013 07:29 PMPosted by Nadeena
First there should not be alot of challenge from your officer.


I dunno, I think that the entire point of having officers is all about balance. In theory, I could run my guild by myself, but that's because it runs itself. But getting to this point took a lot of time and effort from myself and some trustworthy people who I KNEW would challenge me if ever I started to make a wrong decision. We work as a council - for the most part - and I don't make unilateral decisions (emergencies aside) because I trust their judgment. The people you pick as your officers shouldn't be doormats or yes-men; they should be strong, independent, critical thinkers who are able to make unbiased decisions as well as recognize a hasty or not-so-well-thought-out decision and take steps to ensure those types of decisions never come to fruition. There've been a few times in the last 6 years where I honestly believed I was making a good call or the "right decision", only to be shown the light from one of my officers. And I am thankful for those challenges because they come with lessons. No GM is perfect, but the worst decision you can make as a GM is promoting people who will only and always see things your way. You need people to challenge you sometimes, in order to keep you on the right path.
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70 Draenei Paladin
13210
Have you ever had a situation where you had an officer challenge you so hard on anything you decide upon for the guild.. in such a rude way.. that you end up regretting the decision in appointing them an officer.


Yep even recently. Did you want advice on the subject or just hear what I've done when it happens? Or did you want to give more information on the subject before that?

Btw, I posted a message to you specifically in the Too Many Guilds thread, and I haven't seen a response from you. Did you see it?
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90 Tauren Paladin
10245
Jedi,

First I would like to say that I've been reading your responses to other posts and have found that your answers are no-nonsense and pretty spot-on. Therefore I was surprised to see you write this question.

We had one high-ranking officer that was manipulating things behind my back...smiling in my face...plotting my demise as leader. Once what was happening was revealed to me, sudden action was taken. A good chunk of our guild and most of our officers left with that person, they continued to recruit for their new guild inside of ours, and it really set our guild back for about two months. But we recovered and moved on. But after that it took a long time to want to make anyone an officer again.

So at least yours is out and challenging you in the open.

One of our requirements for officer ranks (from junior level upwards) is a respectful demeanour towards others. So if someone was challenging out in the open, they would get a warning before action like demotion would occur.

But if you decide to make new rules or change the rules, be sure all involved know of them before you start enforcing them.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12790
He finally left after that of his own accord. But had he not left I would have removed him.
He was a good raider, but he was a real drag on moral, and overall we were better off without him and he was happier somewhere else.
What if he can't leave because without him you would be dragging down moral by making players do roles they would rather not, slowing progression while you work to find a replacement who can perform to the same level (you will lose your ranking) and as abrasive and badly behaved as he is, he is more reliable than half the guild? What do you do then? How bad of an attitude does he have to have before you would hurt the 24 other raiders to lose him?
Edited by Ussil on 4/2/2013 10:57 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10620
Have you ever had a situation where you had an officer challenge you so hard on anything you decide upon for the guild.. in such a rude way.. that you end up regretting the decision in appointing them an officer.


Not in recent memory but sometimes that happens. If it happens once or twice, got to talk to them in private after things settle down. People get upset, passionate about something, riled up, etc. If it happens a lot, there could be some mental health issues on either end, yours or his. Lots of people who play this game do so because they have trouble interacting in the real world and are not what the average person would call 'normal'. Maybe he just stopped taking his meds. Once again, you would have to talk to him to find out what's going on.

It could also be that his idea of what the guild should be is different from yours. Guess what? You are the GM. He will not change the way you handle things by pushing for his own causes. Stop wasting your own time and his time; if he has to leave and start his own guild so be it. There is no point in getting upset over it and growing to hate him inside your head. As a GM you cannot avoid the problem so face it head on.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
He finally left after that of his own accord. But had he not left I would have removed him.
He was a good raider, but he was a real drag on moral, and overall we were better off without him and he was happier somewhere else.
What if he can't leave because without him you would be dragging down moral by making players do roles they would rather not, slowing progression while you work to find a replacement who can perform to the same level (you will lose your ranking) and as abrasive and badly behaved as he is, he is more reliable than half the guild? What do you do then? How bad of an attitude does he have to have before you would hurt the 24 other raiders to lose him?


Sorry I would never ever allow any one to hold me or my guild hostage.. No one is irreplaceable.. No one.

For Some guilds his behavior would be perfectly acceptable or tolerated because he is a good raider.. that is fine for those guilds.. it is not fine for mine.

This guy was selfish, he had mult toons at max level and he came on whatever toon he wanted to work on , not what the guild needed.

There is a Huge difference between having an officer discuss differences in opinion with the guild leader openly to being Insubordinate and disruptive.

Also the guild was on a high pop server so finding a replacement was no problem.

And you know He found a guild that met more with what he wanted to do so it was a Win, Win for both of us.

While I do discuss decisions with the guild and my officers,, ultimately it is my decision on what is or is not acceptable, if players do not like it they are free to leave

In this officers case.. I did talk with the other officers and raid team members and got their feelings on this guy.. and they were not far off from my own

You and your guild are different, this guy might have fit right in.. he did not fit with my guild or guildies and raids went a lot smoother without him in the raid group,, balking at everything the raid leader suggested or arguing with me about every little decision..
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12790
Holy paragraphs Batman!

Obviously the player I'm talking about is not yours. I was more driving at how willing you are to hurt your guild to remove a player. In the particular case I bring as an example the player is good, geared, reliable and an obnoxious drunk who doesn't get along with half the guild. On a medium to low pop server he can't be replaced easily and you will lose server rank if he goes. When do you remove that player?

It's a tough question. I'm interested in everyone's opinion.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
04/02/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Ussil
Obviously the player I'm talking about is not yours. I was more driving at how willing you are to hurt your guild to remove a player.


How is it hurting my guild? really? You know what hurt the guild and the progression more? the fact that he would not bring the toon the guild needed, the fact that he was always unhappy about something, the fact that he openly fought with the raid leader? The fact that he nerd raged and left the raid a few times because he did not get a piece of loot.

You really need to understand that not all players fit with all guilds no matter how good they are. Raiding is a team effort. I have seldom seen the addition or subtraction of ONE Raider make or break a raid. We never were after realm firsts or any of that kind of stuff.

Frankly I am kind of shocked you would keep someone like this guy in your guild just because he can pump out the numbers. What your saying is he is more important than the 9 or 24 other players. Each their own I guess

And FYI this was not a decision I made alone.. this was a majority vote of the entire raid group. And it was something that we talked about for a few Weeks before it came down to having a talk with him. And your forgetting, he agreed with me that he and the guild did not fit well any more and that he might do better elsewhere and he did.

There are no hard feelings between us and we still talk on occasion as well. He was with us for 3 yrs so it was not like this happened right away, but guilds change and players change and sometimes not always in a way that allows them to stay together
Edited by Ssinfull on 4/2/2013 5:10 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12790
Okay, you seem to be missing a major part of my comments. I will clarify. I am not talking about your raider anymore! Reread my comments please. You have dealt with a situation SIMILAR but not the SAME as what I have presented.

I fell I was pretty clear that I was asking for a more general opinion from you (and others in the thread). I most certainly was not attacking your decision about your raider and I find your hostile defense kind of off putting.

Frankly I am kind of shocked you would keep someone like this guy in your guild just because he can pump out the numbers. What your saying is he is more important than the 9 or 24 other players. Each their own I guess
I am saying that if he is removed, the other 24 won't be clearing as much as they are with him. So removing him will punish them on progression. So no, what I'm saying is 24 people are more important than him.

EDIT: A simple "replace him" is not as easy as you might think. Assume it has been tried and the replacements could not preform as well and held back progression.
Edited by Ussil on 4/2/2013 6:17 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
10295
willing you are to hurt your guild to remove a player. In the particular case I bring as an example the player is good, geared, reliable and an obnoxious drunk who doesn't get along with half the guild. On a medium to low pop server he can't be replaced easily and you will lose server rank if he goes. When do you remove that player?


Have you considered that the stress of playing with an obnoxious drunk may have such a negative effect on the output of the other raiders that losing the drunk could actually improve overall performance?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12790
Yes Nebliina, it does negatively impact raid performance. Unfortunately when running with replacements effectiveness drops even more. The lesser of the two evils is the obnoxious drunk. Don't forget I also mentioned he is good, geared and reliable. The last one means a lot in a raid group. That's why this is an issue that I don't know how to solve.

I have come to the guild/raid leader forums in hopes some of you have had similar experience and have a solution. I apologize for hijacking this thread but it was in a very similar vein to my problem.
Edited by Ussil on 4/2/2013 8:22 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
EDIT: A simple "replace him" is not as easy as you might think. Assume it has been tried and the replacements could not preform as well and held back progression.


Well my apologies.. I did re read everything and I guess I am still missing where you are talking about something different. So again I apologize for the misunderstanding.

But it is only as hard as you make it there are trade offs in all decisions..
If you keep the guy because he has good numbers but is otherwise a jerk, then what is the long term consequence of that? would others not think that because you accepted his behavior that you would also accept theirs?

I guess you have to decide what is more important for you and your guild. If Progression is the number one thing for you and your guild, then tolerating the players behavior may be your only option.

But how long before progression stops because of this Officers nasty attitude or poor attitude..Think of it this way.. The guy is a cancer in your guild,, you do not keep the cancer because you fear the pain of removing it. Because you know if you keep the cancer it will eventually kill you. The same with this officer he is a cancer in your guild and he must treated as such and removed unless you can some how get him to see the error of his ways and change. because if you do not his cancerous attitude will just spread eventually killing progression and then the guild
Edited by Ssinfull on 4/2/2013 8:45 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
9455
Unrealistic argument that you are presenting here.. seriously in a game with over 10 million players.. You are presenting a scenario that is so limited in scope.. its almost like you are trolling. Lets present an unwinnable scenario .. Where a raid team .. suffers because they remove a Drunken jerk from their raid team? That every single replacement they get is not better then the drunk? Come on now... If the jerk is causing the raid team to suffer in performance.. .. Because they are distracted by his assholiness?... Yet when that stressful situation is removed.. the 1 replacement is so bad that even though they perform better with out the drunken jerk. They can't progress?

Seriously a scenario like that is so unrealistic. Its Total Bs. 1 player can't carry a 10man raid.
Sorry dude. There is no point to bringing up that argument it has nothing to do with the subject at hand in the first place.

I did have an officer who was a jerk to me and I found out was not nice to one of my female officers .. She didn't bring it up till after he was gone.. because She wasn't involved in the pvp part of the guild.. so she didn't have to interact with him much. But the few times they did.. interact he showed his sexist side to her. I did explain to her please next time anyone acts like that with her let me know.. and they won't be long in the guild. I can't tolerate crap like that.

Its about the guild happiness all members .. And that means myself and my officers and if one of my officer team is a worm in the apple.. he/she gets removed.

Same for raiding teams or Rbg teams. Divas .drunks and jerks there is no tolerance. You remove them and you let someone else deal with that idiot. AND hopefully as they continue to get booted from guild to guild. eventually they will realize they need to change.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12790
04/03/2013 06:02 AMPosted by Pissedjedi
Unrealistic argument that you are presenting here..
It's funny you say that. I'm sitting here with the issue very real indeed. Unlikely? maybe. Unrealistic? apparently not.

Its Total Bs. 1 player can't carry a 10man raid.
It's not about 1 carrying 24 others. It's about removing a spoke in a wheel. The whole thing is off balance and runs poorly now. All the replacement spokes you try won't fit.

It's quite a conundrum. As far as I can work out the solution is to keep said raider on the team till an acceptable replacement can be found but the search has been going on over 4 months now. Take into account medium/low pop servers, specific raid schedules and the fact that the guild is slow on progression. Those make it harder than you might think to get decent replacement raiders.
Edited by Ussil on 4/3/2013 9:14 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
7425
It's funny you say that. I'm sitting here with the issue very real indeed. Unlikely? maybe. Unrealistic? apparently not.


Then you telling me this guy is so important to your raid that nothing else matters? He is that good? I am sorry I do not buy it for one reason your not a top 10 ranked guild , One player is not going to get you to that level

It's not about 1 carrying 24 others. It's about removing a spoke in a wheel. The whole thing is off balance and runs poorly now. All the replacement spokes you try won't fit.


I seriously doubt this why? because this officer is not that good.. If he really was top hardcorde progression guild material, he would be long gone from your guild.. to put it really Bluntly

Maybe you need to lower your expectations when a new person joins your group, they are going to take a few weeks to fit right in and to really learn to play with your group and your group to learn to play with the new player

I am sorry I do not buy into your idea that this guy is so irreplaceable that he can do what ever he pleases. Maybe you need to question why your guild leader if you can not effectively lead. It is not going to hurt your group if you remove him. it WILL hurt your group if he stays.. Trust me I have seen what a player like this can do to a guild. I have seen a guy who was really good at pumping out the DPS numbers and was always number one or two on the charts. He understood the raid mechanics

His problem is he nerd raged when he did not get his way, he argued with the raid leader, Called everyone out on their mistakes belittling them yes Bosses went down and the guild progressed, and like you the guild leader cited all the same reasons he could not get rid of the guy

Til one day 80% of the raid group and 60% of the guild non raid members had enough of the guy and guild quit . They all found another guild and joined that guild.. the old guild could not recruit anyone because by that time the guild leaders rep was trashed because of this so called great raider/Officer that he would not replace, and progression came to a screeching halt.. guild and guild leader was never heard from on that server again... maybe he stopped playing, maybe he moved off server.. I hope he learned a lesson

Douche bag , selfish nerd ragers will eventually destroy progression and your guild
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14 Human Mage
0
Well, again there is a fine line between "the buck stops here" and "out of control power maniac."

In a former guild (why oh why did I say in it for as long as I did?), I as an officer spoke to GM/RL about getting repairs turned on for raids, since the guild bank was overflowing. I even worked out how much repairs could be turned on for if we made our guild challenges. One of the reasons we wiped so damn much was because each raid, her and her 3 cronies would bring various undergeared alts they had no idea on how to play ("Hahaha, I don't know what any of the spells on my bar do!"), so it was 6 increasingly disgruntled people carrying those 4.

As a result of politely asking if and when repairs would be turned on, she didn't speak to me for a month. We asked if we could stop doing normal mode gearing runs for their alts and do heroics, which then led to one of the craziest melt downs I've ever heard in vent. As a result, every active player in the guild quit, and they went off to Star Wars or Rift or something. We merged in with another guild and were very happy with our progress in heroics (downed 2 heroic bosses the first week we tried them!).

But back to what do you do if you have a jerk in the raid. I've had a few since forming our raid team. A tank that would go AFK without a word and return 30 minutes later saying he was busy making corn bread (and then complained when raid went over by 5 minutes!); another tank who said he'd be right back (and then returned 2 hours later saying he went across the street to a restaurant and had a sit down meal); another tank who decided after he was completely geared up that he wanted to be a priest instead (and we were full on DPS and heals); another tank who decided that he wanted to work on a hunter on another server (and yes, still full on DPS) and then changed his mind after we filled his spot and wanted to come back; another tank who told me that he had a headache and couldn't raid that night, but I guess forgot he was realid friends with me, so I could see he was raiding on another server; another trial tank who told me he had anger issues and would rage at people that he considered "noobs". So this tier has been slightly frustrating. I've gone through 7-8 tanks so far for just ONE raid spot. And no, we haven't gotten a chance to do heroics yet or probably progressed as far as we could have, but I'm not going to have raid held hostage by flighty tanks (and whew, we FINALLY have found the perfect one). We all have had fun together and maintained our standards so that's the most important thing.
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