Holy and Disc in ToT

90 Human Priest
17210
WHICH IS BETTER? HOLY OR DISC?

Hey, I'm not making a mega post about our strategy this time around (see last tier's http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794980143 ), but I was busy collecting data this week and last before we hit the heroic modes. I was looking at a comparison of disc healing vs. holy healing, specifically:
- how much e(hps) did either spec pull?
- how much dps did either spec pull?
- how much of my healing percentage was done to tanks?
- how much mana was spent and how much mana was gained?
- how did both specs perform under burst aoe healing periods?

the answers are:
- both specs had identical e(hps) on almost every fight
- holy did more burst dps, disc had larger sustained dps
- disc had slightly (very slight) more healing percentage done to tanks. My co-healer's percentage on tanks went down slightly as well when I was disc instead of holy
- the mana spent was higher with disc, the mana gained was higher as disc. For overall mana sustainability, the two specs were the exact same
- holy had more burst aoe healing

For all of these tests I did the gearing strategy I'm using this tier which is:
spirit>int>haste>mastery>crit for both specs. I'm gemming spirit but picking up socket bonuses, I'm easing off the haste after the 16.6% softcap (4717 haste rating) in favor of mastery. I don't want mastery to exceed crit by 2x if I can help it, so I'm still gemming Zen gems in the green sockets for now. If I go under the haste cap I'll start using spirit/haste and if my mastery doubles over my crit I'll start going spirit/crit. Purified gems in red, and Sparkling in blue. (see explanation and stat weights discussion starting here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714?page=5#100 )

Durumu was the hardest fight for us (Meg was a little hard, but it's since been nerfed). I pushed my highest numbers on Iron Qon. Jin'rokh and Twin Consorts were joke fights. Lei Shen looks to be like a fight I might have to be forced into playing disc, and it also looks to be like a fight were I change my gearing to Mastery>int>spirit for the heroic mode version

The solace vs. mindbender to me is the most difficult decision per encounter. Even in heroic modes, the level 75 and 90 tier talents aren't as important to "get right" mathematically as the mana regen tier (I can elaborate on that if needed). My logic for either choice is coming from my analysis done over at this thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788
But basically:
- Is there adds I'll be hitting? Solace
- Is there significant target downtime? Mindbender
- Is there time to stop casting aoe spells during big aoe burst? If no - mindbender; if yes, solace
- Do I need more mana? Solace
- Do I need more damage? Mindbender
- Can I finish the encounter without these two? From Darkness Comes Light
- Is there big tank damage? From Darkness Comes Light
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/24/2013 12:09 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17210
MY DISC/HOLY LOGS FOR EACH FIGHT FOR COMPARISON:

Logs and talent choices (my recommended talent choices might not match with the linked logs. I only have so many attempts to test this stuff, so I might have been experimenting with differing talents in those logs):

Jin'rokh
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jjcoo1k5y242a6x2/sum/healingDone/?s=486&e=661
recommend solace, power infusion, divine star (cascade if you want to practice for heroic mode and spread out during the storm)
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/il4csbw8bwoxc9ph/sum/healingDone/?s=10290&e=10651
recommend: solace, divine insight, divine star

Horridon
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jjcoo1k5y242a6x2/sum/healingDone/?s=2274&e=2798
my logs where I did use twist of fate, I just had 500 ilevel so I didn't link it before because all of my tests were done with my current gear: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nln2asc3fydtjtu3/sum/healingDone/?s=7636&e=8233
recommend: solace, twist of fate, halo
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c0lrufzf5a86m90t/sum/healingDone/?s=2505&e=3053
recommend: solace, twist of fate, divine star

Council of the Elders
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jjcoo1k5y242a6x2/sum/healingDone/?s=3455&e=3822
recommend: mindbender, twist of fate (spirits), divine star
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c0lrufzf5a86m90t/sum/healingDone/?s=4292&e=4671
recommend: mindbender, divine insight, divine star

Tortos
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jjcoo1k5y242a6x2/sum/healingDone/?s=5856&e=6151
recommend: solace, twist of fate, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c0lrufzf5a86m90t/sum/healingDone/?s=6711&e=7026
recommend: from darkness comes light, divine insight, cascade

Megaera:
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8zs17cr5k53tgoo9/sum/healingDone/?s=8197&e=8709 (this was pre-nerf)
recommend: mindbender, power infusion, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ellf44q563ehazgc/sum/healingDone/?s=3979&e=4412
recommend: mindbender, power infusion, cascade

Ji'kun
disc:
logs are inaccurate because of range
recommend: from darkness comes light, twist of fate (or divine insight if your team decides to eat lots of puddles), halo
holy:
logs are inaccurate because of range
recommend: from darkness comes light, divine insight, cascade (or halo if you don't refresh renew in serenity during quills)

Durumu (this was the hardest boss in the instance for us!)
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/shem0plubfubrbl6/sum/healingDone/?s=2632&e=3022
recommend: solace, power infusion, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c0lrufzf5a86m90t/sum/healingDone/?s=11081&e=11514
recommend: mindbender, divine insight, cascade

Primordius
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/shem0plubfubrbl6/sum/healingDone/?s=4843&e=5307
recommend: solace, twist of fate, halo
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/majql65bosm0muf2/sum/healingDone/?s=3443&e=3875
recommend: solace, twist of fate, halo

Dark Animus
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/himabx9a7rgxf96m/sum/healingDone/?s=9136&e=9451
recommend: solace, power infusion, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/majql65bosm0muf2/sum/healingDone/?s=5408&e=5657
recommend: mindbender, divine insight, cascade

Iron Qon (this fight is kind of the healer balance test for this tier like garalon was last tier)
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d2fwgptr69tkdlfd/sum/healingDone/?s=2290&e=2931
recommend: solace, power infusion, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/majql65bosm0muf2/sum/healingDone/?s=7363&e=7963
recommend: mindbender, divine insight, cascade (divine star if your group doesn't take damage from lines)

Twin Consorts (this fight was the easiest one in this tier because Jin'rokh isn't a boss. We didn't know half of the mechanics and one shot it our first night)
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d2fwgptr69tkdlfd/sum/healingDone/?s=3517&e=4098
recommend: solace, power infusion, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/majql65bosm0muf2/sum/healingDone/?s=8838&e=9407
recommend: solace, divine insight, cascade

Lei Shen
disc:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ac01qqjkhi9yl53p/sum/healingDone/?s=7984&e=8522
recommend: mindbender, power infusion, cascade
holy:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w0mkmx90vnt2j3gc/sum/healingDone/?s=3822&e=4373
recommend: mindbender, divine insight, cascade
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/24/2013 12:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
10955
I like you.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17210
Sure. Divine Insight with the 4 piece is really effective on some of these fights. But the damage patterns aren't always perfect for rolling just gheal and poh. Not to mention that if you have aura damage, or an existing PoM is already bouncing around, that 4 piece actually makes it more ouchies to overwrite that existing PoM with the DI proc. And there are fights where the other two will still mathematically beat out the DI proc, both in hps terms and in hpm terms because healing is a 0 sum and the number of healing required fluctuates at a given time.

So for napkins, if you're rolling PoH, and your 6 bounces of mending are twice the healing per sec but you're clipping the last 3 bounces of an existing PoM, then the talent under this rotation is a 20% increase to your healing under this 'rotation'. If you cast any other spell besides PoH, this number goes down (like if you added in cascade and circle of healing every 8 sec, that 20% is actually more like 7% but that's before overhealing). I'm also not accounting for if you were casting PoH, had another PoH cued up and got the proc. Do you lose hps by interrupting your current PoH or risk overwriting the DI proc with another DI proc?

If you had 20% haste from power infusion, you'd be doing more during this theoretical example regardless because haste is multiplicative. But the uptime is subject to you pressing it because it's a cooldown. Not to mention you have to match using it appropriately. If you had twist of fate, you could have a variable 15% healing depending on the uptime of it. So it really comes down to the encounter.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/2/2013 3:03 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
So for napkins, if you're rolling PoH, and your 6 bounces of mending are twice the healing per sec but you're clipping the last 3 bounces of an existing PoM, then the talent under this rotation is a 20% increase to your healing under this 'rotation'. If you cast any other spell besides PoH, this number goes down (like if you added in cascade and circle of healing every 8 sec, that 20% is actually more like 7% but that's before overhealing). I'm also not accounting for if you were casting PoH, had another PoH cued up and got the proc. Do you lose hps by interrupting your current PoH or risk overwriting the DI proc with another DI proc?


On average, you're looking at 2.5 PoHs per DI proc. This essentially gives you ~5-6 seconds between each DI proc, allowing you to easily consume a non-DI PoM between your DI procs on fights with pulsing damage. Of course, you'll sometimes be forced to override your PoM with a DI proc, but there's where usage of CoH and sometimes PoM as cast fillers comes in place.

I've tried both ToF and PI, but they honestly don't come close to how strong DI is with our 2-piece bonus.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/2/2013 3:47 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
18650
Jin'rokh is not a boss. He is simply trash on the way to the bridge boss and the triceratops

I'm sure you didn't mean this in a condescending manner, but there are some groups out there who do have problems on this boss. Perhaps including talent choices for it would be nice to help them out :)
Reply Quote
Yay Twisted. Thanks for posting this!
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
13045
Horridon
disc:http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jjcoo1k5y242a6x2/sum/healingDone/?s=2274&e=2798
recommend: solace, twist of fate, halo


I see that you are 2 healing this fight, and you have a 12/12 normal progression, which means your raid team has better execution than someone that is 2/12 (like myself) or 1/12.

In my case, this fight is shield spam starting at the end of gate 2, so for me: Mindbender, Power Infusion, Cascade.

Mindbender is not for mana. It helps to get rid of this stupid add on me, or some other stupid add. And, honestly, I won't be able to use Solace on cooldown. When I casted Cascade, I mostly had no idea where the raid is, other than within or not within healing range, so Halo would be totally uneffective. And, I prefer the on-demand burst from PI. (You don't have ToF procs in the linked log. Maybe you didn't spec into it for that fight?)
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
10955
You dont get an add in normal though do you?
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
18650
Those guys on the 3rd gate that follow a person around. They apply the stacking disease debuff: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=69184 These guys I believe, is what Jesminia is referring to.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17210
04/02/2013 06:15 AMPosted by Ashleycakez
Jin'rokh is not a boss. He is simply trash on the way to the bridge boss and the triceratops

I'm sure you didn't mean this in a condescending manner, but there are some groups out there who do have problems on this boss. Perhaps including talent choices for it would be nice to help them out :)

But I meant in the most condescending, harsh, evil tone I can express for I hate all teh humans and wish to see everyone groveling beneath my super epeen of might for I am the all powerful great Twisted, decimator of bosses, and occasionally throw a noob a bone, unless it's a sunday through saturday because I'm raiding but still you should listen to the little advice I dish out because it's mathematical and sorta of awsome and I'm the king of....................................
............................
......................
................
...........
........
...
Okay, I edited it. I try not to sound like a douche but my collar flipped up when I was typing that up this morning because I was propping my head up with staves in an effort to stay awake. I edited the original but requoted myself so people can still see my initial first impression of the encounter.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/2/2013 12:22 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
18650
Just felt a little harsh for a guide :) Otherwise, well done. Hope it helps out many Priests in ToT.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17210
Also the halt in our normal progression was Horridon, Megaera, and Durumu. So some extra tips for those:

Horridon Tips:
- We started with 3 heals and bumped it down once the dps got really good and focused.
We don't do aoes, cleaves, or multidots. We /assist the add tank and blow up the priority add to reduce all the other noise.
- We found it best to loosely group at the left of the door and slowly move to our right because each door has some kind of junk on the ground.
- You always want to switch to the add that just came from the sky. Add tank needs to grab aggro quickly. I started spirit shell and aoe rolling as the 2nd sky add came down for all doors.

Megaera Tips:
- We 3 heal it and the heads die faster than 1.5 minutes, so we have each healer use their big 3 minute in a 3 rampage rotation.
- Try just going christmas at first and see if you can get away with ignoring blue. This requires much more tank and healing gear, but it minimizes movement and opens up the room. If it doesn't work, that's fine. Just try to be smart about where you dispel cinders and where you place ice if you're kiting.
- Show all the debuffs and immediately bubble the person who gets cinders (spec body and soul and call out in vent) so they don't die, you stop the damage, and they can get away faster.
- Try to get one healer each casting a big slow nuke prior to the tanks taking a breath. As disc, I pad them up and top them off while my partners are cancel casting on either tank.

Durumu Tips:
- We found it best to put raid markers up before hand and assign people to stand in a quadrant we made so they can call out "there's a red in between purple and green," etc.
- The tanks need cd's for the 3rd debuff and onwards. They taunt swap right as the 3 beams come out so a fresh tank doesn't need as much attention during beams phase. The one that isn't tanking the boss during the beam phase (with the stack of mortal strike debuffs) runs with the yellow beam along with one other person (usually a healer).
- Have the better spell tank (in our group, a dk) have the boss during the 3 colored beams part. You still need to stop the aoe heals and cast a big slow nuke with the timer on Hard Stare because if you get behind on that mechanic, you're just going to get so far behind healing everything.
- We needed to save brezzes for the purple maze because of bad latency/graphic card crashes. This graphics thing is an acknowledged problem from the devs.
- The more people in beams, the less raid damage goes out. But the people in beams take more damage over time. So we kind of started with less people in the red at first and as time went on ranged and healers started running with them. Big healer cd's go closer to the end.
- There is little you can do for that last part of the purple going down because you have to guess where the open spot is (*Edit: open spot should be visible during the precast). I spirit shell during the beam precast because of the raiders taking one or two unavoidable ticks of damage while they scurry into the clear spots.
- Make sure a mortal strike debuff is on the boss (from a melee dps usually) because you're going to fail at the drain life mechanic for sure. Try to switch at 2-3 stacks of it.

*Edit: I also linked a log of me doing horridon with twist of fate. It was at a lower ilevel so I didn't include it in my test results because I was trying to keep all of that stuff the same.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/12/2013 4:12 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
13045
04/02/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Loratabb
You dont get an add in normal though do you?


I think he means door 3 adds that have no aggro table. But its just a assumption


Yes, the warriors and champions on the 3rd door are untauntable. Root+Bender could get them off me (or someone else), and probably keep them busy rather than chasing another raid member.

It could also be, "Look, Enfusion. We don't have another interrupt. Kill it quick!"
Reply Quote
On Horridon we started with 3 heals and bumped it down once the dps got really good and focused.
On Horridon, we don't do aoes, cleaves, or multidots. We /assist the add tank and blow up the priority add to reduce all the other noise.
On Horridon we found it best to loosely group at the left of the door and slowly move to our right because each door has some kind of junk on the ground.


This is exactly what we did (are doing). In addition to this we actually use heroism on Door 3 to help get down warlords/disease things more quickly as that was (and still is to an extent) our hardest part of the fight. We actually got our first kill (after 2 weeks of wipes) on Monday (last pull of the night). Last night we actually managed to one shot him. :)

edit: Just in case anyone is curious, for this fight I use Mindbender, ToF, and Cascade.

Last night's logs: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/nqcwvhn1z7irqnna/dashboard/?s=9535&e=10215
Edited by Morenn on 4/3/2013 7:17 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17210
Congrats on getting Horridon (and council) down, Jes. Tortos is a fun fight, I think you're going to like it.

From this thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714?page=7#129
- The Healing 2pc causes each Prayer of Mending heal to heal for 10% more than the last; it’s multiplicative. 100%->110%->121%->133%->146%->161%.
- Further clarification on the Healing 2pc: the Glyph of Prayer of Mending will only boost the first heal. The glyph effects won’t be carried over due to the set bonus. It will be 160% -> 110% -> 121% -> 133% -> 146%.

So if you're holy and taking the glyph, you could be shorting yourself on some hps if you're also using divine insight. The way I look at that talent vs. the other talents is:
- When do I need a talent in that tier? If you get twist of fate but nothing threatening is really happening, sad. If you have power infusion up for only one threatening mechanic every 3 minutes, sad. If you're running around casting instants and not PoH or Gheal for Insight procs, sad.
- What is max mathematically? Arguably, this tier matters most during AoE healing. So in my gear PoH is 354,663 healing per cast. Unglyphed PoM is 289,721. With my tier 15 bonus PoM is 372,562. Circle of Healing is 197,456 (236,947 glyphed). If you cast a priority rotation as PoM>CoH>PoH, these spells for me are ~180,741 hps (with the set bonus) before modifiers. So with Divine Insight at a 40% proc rate on a PoM, this hps goes to ~197,565-208,220 hps assuming no clipping, no delays in using the procs (or other spells, so your 90 talents will further devalue the proc rate). Power infusion allows you to fit an additional PoH into that rotation so it comes to 214,591 hps. If you start this mini rotation with a twist of fate proc (from death or solace or something), the hps is 207,852 hps.

So DI is a 9.3% to 15.2% increase in hps (but factor in a 2/3's tax on the initial in the event of a clip and a potential 0.1 seconds for interrupting your PoH cast and this talent is a realistic 1.5%-3% total healing increase, not looking at overhealing or other spell choices). If you factor in the increased overhealing done and the extreme drops in value when you cast something besides gheal/poh, this talent can look really underwhelming. But it does break through the party restriction for aoe, and it does snipe really well so it's still super effective situationally.
Power infusion is a 18.7%-22.63% depending on the rotation with your current haste level during it's cast. Obviously this drops to a meager 3.4% increase when looking at the 2 minutes cd. This drops even lower if you don't use it again right away.
Twist of Fate can be a 15% boost, but it's uptime is what really determines if it's good or not. If you can push more than a 20% uptime this averages higher than the other two talents, and that's assuming the other two are being maximized.

The way I look at these with relations to my whole spells breakdown is I rule of thumb that each of these talents should provide me with at least a 3% total boost in my healing. If one can maximize my healing more than 3%, it's probably the one I want for w/e given fight.

I think what's really confusing for most is they look on their spells breakdown page on world of logs or recount and see that Prayer of Mending made up X% amount of healing on some fight with low overhealing and conclude that DI must be the best. Well, of course the percentage for PoM is high, you're casting it more often. You'd have to compare its increase with the rest of your total healing done and see if you can push more totals with Power Infusion or Twist of Fate, and you'd have to do this under exact conditions (which isn't a repeatable scenario unless you're using sims). So at the end of the day, it's more of a judgement call. Also factor in what's comfortable for you. If targeting something or dps throws you off, maybe ToF isn't a good choice. If you forget to use cooldowns, PI isn't for you. If you hold onto procs, can't react within microseconds, or cast under a rigid rotation, you're probably losing out by picking DI.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/5/2013 11:22 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
What is max mathematically? Arguably, this tier matters most during AoE healing. So in my gear PoH is 354,663 healing per cast. Unglyphed PoM is 289,721. With my tier 15 bonus PoM is 372,562.


These numbers aren't correct though. I'm assuming that you're factoring in Crit and EoL, in which case, PoM's numbers are far too low.

Also, with a 40% proc chance per PoH cast and a ~2.3s cast time on PoH, you're looking at an average of ~6 seconds between each DI proc. On quite a few fights this tier with pulsing damage, you're looking at enough time to fully consume your regular PoM cast before the next DI proc. This is an aggregate, and it doesn't always happen if you get lucky with DI procs, but you're usually fully consuming a regular PoM more often than not. This means that your 2/3rd tax on DI may be slightly too penalizing, especially since PoM usually has 10-20% less overhealing than PoH.

Looking at these two Durumu logs where PoM is my main spell cast priority, I had 120 and 257 PoM ticks as Disc and Holy respectively, with 22 DI procs (132 PoM ticks) as Holy.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5sps895npohwmjoq/details/17/?s=1948&e=2534
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s6h57a5k0bbkuqpf/details/17/?s=13481&e=14075

Effectively, having DI roughly doubled my PoM output, and you're seeing an increase that can't be matched by PI or ToF, even if the extra GCDs that have to be spent on DI are factored in.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/4/2013 5:35 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Priest
14030
I think Halo is a little underrated for heroic Tortos, but I wish I had a successful attempt so I could compare it with Cascade.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]