'Spread Healing' is an unacceptable weakness

Not only that, it really only shows that Holy Pallies were even more overpowered than shamans.
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Yeah, I don't think DS is any good way to measure what Shaman could ever do in stack-fest scenarios given how broken Holy Radiance was back then.

That aside, how Holy Radiance was modified considerably (going from an AoE heal centered on the paladin with a CD, to a spammable targetable AoE with HP generation) so that Paladins would have suitable AoE for the tier is an example of how mechanical changes CAN be done mid-expansion, even if just for the last tier. Whether they are willing to do so or not, that is another consern. In Totemspot's interview with GC some weeks ago, it was clear that he had no intention at all to give Shaman a way/tool to cope with spread AoE healing, and even for the next expansion he said that it was just a big "maybe" to do so. Hopefully the situation in ToT opened their eyes to how something like this should really be addressed soon, and not just a "maybe some day".
Edited by Korghal on 4/3/2013 1:14 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
8570
I have read the OP three times it's that good. It is a false niche that only exists at the bottom of the encounter barrel. The next thing they will say is that they enjoyed DS for it's "rich denseness", or some other BS.

Mechanical changes are what we needed before the buff and what we need now. Mechanical changes can have a much larger impact on our numbers that just buffing spell outputs.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7110
That is exactly why looking at top parses is not useful when looking at heals. It is quite frequently nothing more than an indication of a gimmicky log: for example, who has solo healed a boss, or which raid group has (accidentally or deliberately) taken a lot of damage so their healer can rank.


I tend to disagree with this, as i pointed out it's not like shamans were narrowly beaten by a holy paladin. in some cases paladins hold nearly or over 50% of top parses rankings. to me it's clear that holy paladins have almost always been near the top of the pack. furthermore DS is used as a shining example of the quote other end of the spectrum to Throne of Thunder. almost all of the fights involved a lot of stacking, and so you would expect that shamans would be dominant if not very common in the rankings. since most normal people don't keep logs of all different level of raiders we have to look at the logs f rom people who actually care to keep logs. the upper end of raiding groups

saying don't look at top parses is like saying major league baseball statistics aren't worth looking at either, we should be looking at kids T=ball for what's really going on.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7110
Not only that, it really only shows that Holy Pallies were even more overpowered than shamans.


to be fair disc priests and restoration druids both held more top rankings then shamans did.

I know, I know not supposed to be looking at the supposed top 100 parses, because people intentionally throw them off. I too would spend time trying to make myself look better who wouldn't.

That being said on some level i think top players are just that top players you could hand them whatever class you want and they would probably find a way to make some pretty amazing stuff happen with it. however, it seems clear they like to play paladin wonder why that would be certainly not because there always super awesome now would they.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
saying don't look at top parses is like saying major league baseball statistics aren't worth looking at either, we should be looking at kids T=ball for what's really going on.


No, it's actually nothing like that at all. Whether you like it or not, a hefty number of top parses from Dragon Soul were fights being deliberately cheezed for the purpose of having a healer rank. Seriously, it's true. People one healing, people's raid members deliberately standing in fire so their healer could rank. More importantly, top parses are only a handful of examples, and don't provide much information about overall class performance. Anecdote does not equal data.

I'll also note that, contrary to the implication of your baseball analogy, I did not say folks should never look at healing statistics of any kind. It's just that some statistics are provide a useful measure of overall class performance as a whole, whereas other statistics are not as helpful.

Generally speaking, a comparison of the average or median healing done between all classes in Throne of Thunder for each fight will provide us with at least a snapshot of current relative performance; whereas looking at a handful top Dragon Soul parses tells us almost nothing.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10440
Dragon soul parses don't really matter. Only parses that are worth looking at are those during progression while content is relevant to gear lvl.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7110
No, it's actually nothing like that at all. Whether you like it or not, a hefty number of top parses from Dragon Soul were fights being deliberately cheezed for the purpose of having a healer rank. Seriously, it's true. People one healing, people's raid members deliberately standing in fire so their healer could rank. More importantly, top parses are only a handful of examples, and don't provide much information about overall class performance. Anecdote does not equal data.

I'll also note that, contrary to the implication of your baseball analogy, I did not say folks should never look at healing statistics of any kind. It's just that some statistics are provide a useful measure of overall class performance as a whole, whereas other statistics are not as helpful.

Generally speaking, a comparison of the average or median healing done between all classes in Throne of Thunder for each fight will provide us with at least a snapshot of current relative performance; whereas looking at a handful top Dragon Soul parses tells us almost nothing.


Generally speaking is one way of putting what you just said. I think the data whether you believe it was cheesed or not clearly shows what many of us have known quite well for a while.

You want to be top healer all the time ( Roll a paladin)
You want to be the meter toping DPS ( Roll a Mage)

you can go average all the healing statistics you want. I personally don't care whether they cheesed it or not everyone on the list had ample and equal ability to cheese. there is no logical reason that more paladins than druids, or more priests than shamans would choose to try to rank deliberately. it still doesn't account for why paladins show up so much more often than shaman or any other healing class.
Edited by Shaambulance on 4/4/2013 12:00 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7110
Dragon soul parses don't really matter. Only parses that are worth looking at are those during progression while content is relevant to gear lvl.


I think they show pretty clearly that paladins have been top of the pack since well before DS, but then that's just my own conclusion you all are free to make your own conclusions.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
04/04/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Shaambulance
You want to be the meter toping DPS ( Roll a Mage)


Hahahaha. Good one.
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88 Human Mage
8645
Original poster, you touched on each point perfectly. I hope the devs are reading
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10440
04/04/2013 11:59 AMPosted by Shaambulance
Dragon soul parses don't really matter. Only parses that are worth looking at are those during progression while content is relevant to gear lvl.


I think they show pretty clearly that paladins have been top of the pack since well before DS, but then that's just my own conclusion you all are free to make your own conclusions.


Resto shaman were just fine in DS why does being the top parser matter though? Healers job is to keep the raid alive, if they live and you healed, good job.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7110
i enjoyed DS i didn't play it as a shaman I was a disc priest then and looking back i rather wish i'd kept up with my disc priest. my shamans i was enthralled with an inscription staff on my shaman though took me forever to get it.

as for top parser no i don't think it matters that much. I try to do as best i can but your right keeping people alive is the end goal.

I still look at who's reaching the top 10 to try to get a feel of what top ranking shamans may be doing or not doing and see how there working there gear. as an example not necessarily a forced guide.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10440
Discy p's were so good in ds. Yea the problem lies in ppl getting too caught up in the parses at times and it puts blinders on the real issue of our lack if ability to aoe heal a spread raid group, especially in 10m. It's not my personal opinion that we are too weak and need to be able to top meters, I just want the glyphs fixed that were designed to enable us to heal such damage. They arent working so well in thier burrent state, its its painfully obvious in a 10m setting where two healing fights is necessary.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7110
i'd settle for another instant heal over time i could cast. i know people don't like that idea. but i mean maybe they are afraid we will become like druids too much. just a watery druid.

either way something needs to be done i agree
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
04/04/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Taymage
More importantly, top parses are only a handful of examples, and don't provide much information about overall class performance. Anecdote does not equal data.


This, to me, is the biggest reason to not point to top parses of *any* fight when trying to assess how a class is performing. Even "top 100 healers of any class, fight by fight in ToT" is... not a large enough data set to draw actual conclusions.
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90 Human Warlock
17000
Resto shaman were just fine in DS why does being the top parser matter though? Healers job is to keep the raid alive, if they live and you healed, good job.

I believe the argument is that if a Shaman's weakness is spread phases, it better be really good at the alternative; if Paladins (or anyone) are beating Shamans in stack fights, how do you justify the weakness? It's not like it's a weakness to mechanics on specific fights (like a Necrotic Strike debuff and Disc), spread healing occurs a lot.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10405
Would it be bad to have HR operate like Holy Radiance? Let us cast it on people so as they move the rain moves with them? These spread fights render half my toolbox ineffective. I'm at a loss for how to make myself viable for encounters I feel like I'm working twice as hard for half the results. Whats the answer here? A previous poster was right its like deja vu all over again, Blizz does nothing to improve shaman, over time we become more of a liability to a raid and the Dev's totally ignore anything we are saying. It's getting old that we have to wait 2 to 3 patches for fix and the track record proves it.

Wrath we started out awful does anyone not remember how bad we were? In Uldar they buffed the hell out of shaman after maintaining for months that shaman were fine. In Cata we are again awful out the gate, then we get a huge buff to purification coming out of the first tier after a couple patches. The dev's are doing an awful job with resto shaman, I know GC says they work on the classes as a team but I just don't believe it. It really seems like they eitheir dislike the class or are too stupid to understand how to fix it. Eitheir way they aren't doing their jobs.
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04/09/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Dalistar
Would it be bad to have HR operate like Holy Radiance? Let us cast it on people so as they move the rain moves with them? These spread fights render half my toolbox ineffective.

Holy Radiance suffers the same problems as Healing Rain in spread situations, so I don't see how making HRain 'like' Radiance would help. Holy Radiance makes Paladins solid in stacked healing because it increases HoPo generation, which they can turn into more healing; however, unlike us, they have tools to deal with spread healing while ours are much more limited that theirs.
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