'Spread Healing' is an unacceptable weakness

90 Blood Elf Priest
11125
Another awesome Kaels post. Upvoted.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Yep, what Ceddya is actualyl saying is (if I'm reading correctly) that shamans should be fixed, but MTT should be converted to a personal CD.

I can agree with that.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
"Can't heal burst damage" is worse.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
Holy crap. Fantastic OP.


If only you would actually read then. I've always said to fix Shaman's issue with spread healing and bring them up to par, but that such a buff would necessitate a rebalancing or removal of raid wide MTT.

I've actually never once said that Resto Shaman healing should be crippled by MTT.


Many Shaman would probably be ok with that if their personal mana regen did not suffer as a result. Blizzard have said over and over again that there shouldn't be "utility tax" anyway, so if they aren't getting buffs because of MTT being too good and keeping a raid spot for them, then that's pretty hypocritical. You are consistently comparing utility across specs when you really shouldn't be, because you can't "prove" with any kind of absolution that Shaman utility is objectively superior.

Saying that MTT needs to be rebalanced implies that you think Shaman are lower because that singular CD justifies it, though. That's quite the claim, and i don't think I've ever seen it properly backed up, or seen Blizzard say anything to that effect, so I am gonna so "no" to that for now. Lots of classes have buffs that are considered "strong" for various situations, so Resto Shaman shouldn't be the only spec with this burden. The spec shouldn't be penalized for things they didn't ask for, especially when it is directly going against Blizzard's most recently stated overall class-wide design intent.

All they have to do is fix glyph of riptide, pretty sad they refuse to.


I'd rather Glyphs not cover up class dysfunctionality if Blizzard is going to continue to parade them as optional choices. The Glyphs do suck, but I think a better solution isn't too much to ask for. If Blizzard considers Glyphs to be even more optional than talents, then they probably aren't going to (intentionally) make them powerful enough to cover something like this anyway.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470
I'd rather Glyphs not cover up class dysfunctionality if Blizzard is going to continue to parade them as optional choices. The Glyphs do suck, but I think a better solution isn't too much to ask for. If Blizzard considers Glyphs to be even more optional than talents, then they probably aren't going to (intentionally) make them powerful enough to cover something like this anyway.


I'd also rather not be homogenized, I like our weakness but it's too prevalent. Having a glyph to help diminish that by a small amount is the best possible case. We don't need every healing class being able to do the same things.

Making riptide glyph "good" for spread healing would fit their glyph design, situational and optional.
Edited by Sensations on 3/29/2013 9:28 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
I'd rather Glyphs not cover up class dysfunctionality if Blizzard is going to continue to parade them as optional choices. The Glyphs do suck, but I think a better solution isn't too much to ask for. If Blizzard considers Glyphs to be even more optional than talents, then they probably aren't going to (intentionally) make them powerful enough to cover something like this anyway.


I'd also rather not be homogenized, I like our weakness but it's too prevalent. Having a glyph to help diminish that by a small amount is the best possible case. We don't need every healing class being able to do the same things.

Making riptide glyph "good" for spread healing would fit their glyph design, situational and optional.


Class identity comes after there's a solid foundation already in place, or that identity does not turn out to be positive. Shaman can and will always have some type of identity that makes them "special", and no one or two spells to deal with this problem are going to change that.
Keeping the class dysfunctional for homogenization's sake is the wrong way to preserve "class feeling". Shaman aren't going to suddenly stop dropping totems or stop casting water based healing magic because of a pathetic "niche" that Blizzard pulled out of their butt a few years ago.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470


I'd also rather not be homogenized, I like our weakness but it's too prevalent. Having a glyph to help diminish that by a small amount is the best possible case. We don't need every healing class being able to do the same things.

Making riptide glyph "good" for spread healing would fit their glyph design, situational and optional.


Class identity comes after there's a solid foundation already in place, or that identity does not turn out to be positive. Shaman can and will always have some type of identity that makes them "special", and no one or two spells to deal with this problem are going to change that.
Keeping the class dysfunctional for homogenization's sake is the wrong way to preserve "class feeling". Shaman aren't going to suddenly stop dropping totems or stop casting water based healing magic because of a pathetic "niche" that Blizzard pulled out of their butt a few years ago.


The class isn't dysfunctional, far from it...
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165


Class identity comes after there's a solid foundation already in place, or that identity does not turn out to be positive. Shaman can and will always have some type of identity that makes them "special", and no one or two spells to deal with this problem are going to change that.
Keeping the class dysfunctional for homogenization's sake is the wrong way to preserve "class feeling". Shaman aren't going to suddenly stop dropping totems or stop casting water based healing magic because of a pathetic "niche" that Blizzard pulled out of their butt a few years ago.


The class isn't dysfunctional, far from it...


Parts of it are. You want to fix a broken arm, not take pride in it or label it one of your special traits. I 100% disagree that adding spread healing options outside of "optional" talents or glyphs will cause the class to lose anything worth keeping.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17095
03/29/2013 07:05 PMPosted by Riôt
I do not agree with your implied assessment of Shamans in spread or movement situations.


??

You are pretty much literally the only person on the face of the earth that thinks shaman are fine in spread situations.

And let's be clear: to the extent you believe they have no problems in such situations, you would be flat wrong.
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90 Troll Shaman
13300
Remove that op healing tide.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/29/2013 11:04 PMPosted by Taymage
I do not agree with your implied assessment of Shamans in spread or movement situations.


??

You are pretty much literally the only person on the face of the earth that thinks shaman are fine in spread situations.

And let's be clear: to the extent you believe they have no problems in such situations, you would be flat wrong.


Well, he's not (there are other people who seem to believe spread healing for Shaman is "fine"), but he's never actually come out and explained what exactly he thinks Shaman should be doing. It would be nice if he would do that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Once again, this is an issue for casted heals like PoH, moreso with the group only restriction. There's no reason why a Resto Shaman cannot cast a RT on the move, stop to cast the CH and then move again. It's what most other healers with casted heals do.

The issue with CH isn't quite the same as the issue with PoH.

With PoH, yes, sometimes you can't cast it because you, the priest, are moving. That's a standard, expected weakness of spells with cast times and part of the challenge of playing a ranged class.

But CH is disrupted not only by the shaman's movement but by everyone else's movement. If anyone in the intended chain takes even a few steps, the chain breaks. When you line up a chain on a high-movement encounter, by the time the cast goes off, there's a solid chance those people won't be chainable anymore. Maybe you get lucky and it hits some people anyway, but you can't depend on it.

It takes a lot more movement to disrupt a PoH to the same extent. The raid has to be really spread and/or moving a whole freaking lot, and even then, it's pretty likely that you'll hit at least 3 targets if you chose a good central target. CH can easily - through no fault of either the shaman or the targets - go from a 4-player chain to a one-player Beam of Fail in the time it takes to cast it, just because of normal/necessary movement.

And that's all on top of losing ~80% of the healing from Healing Rain in that sort of situation.

That's the thing - when shamans talk about having problems dealing with high-movement encounters, they're not talking about their own need to stand still and turret. That can be dealt with. Plenty of classes need to turret, and movement encounters typically give enough breathing room for a skilled player to get a decent amount of casting done.

Shamans are talking about the fact that their tools break when other people have to move.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
But CH is disrupted not only by the shaman's movement but by everyone else's movement. If anyone in the intended chain takes even a few steps, the chain breaks. When you line up a chain on a high-movement encounter, by the time the cast goes off, there's a solid chance those people won't be chainable anymore. Maybe you get lucky and it hits some people anyway, but you can't depend on it.


Is CH's chain decided when the cast starts or as it goes off? Because it sounds like pretty retarded design if it's the former.
Edited by Ceddya on 3/29/2013 11:51 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/29/2013 11:51 PMPosted by Ceddya
But CH is disrupted not only by the shaman's movement but by everyone else's movement. If anyone in the intended chain takes even a few steps, the chain breaks. When you line up a chain on a high-movement encounter, by the time the cast goes off, there's a solid chance those people won't be chainable anymore. Maybe you get lucky and it hits some people anyway, but you can't depend on it.


Is CH's chain decided when the cast starts or as it goes off? Because it sounds like pretty retarded design if it's the former.


You target a person, and cast the spell. When it goes off, the jumps are determined by where your targeted person is at that moment, and where everyone else is at that moment. But if they moved between when you started casting, and when you finished casting, the chain can (and probably will) break.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
You target a person, and cast the spell. When it goes off, the jumps are determined by where your targeted person is at that moment, and where everyone else is at that moment. But if they moved between when you started casting, and when you finished casting, the chain can (and probably will) break.


Ah, I'm not going to comment on this since I've never actually had hands on experience with healing on the Shaman, but I certainly can understand the frustration of having your main raid heal be disrupted by one person moving out of position of the group/raid.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Well, he's not (there are other people who seem to believe spread healing for Shaman is "fine"), but he's never actually come out and explained what exactly he thinks Shaman should be doing. It would be nice if he would do that.

Well...I would like a response to my hypothetical.

Suppose that there is some way for shamans to keep up on spread/movement encounters. Doesn't really matter what it is, just assume it exists. Assume shamans are fine at spread healing.

Then how in the nine thousand hells can they even remotely be balanced in a stacked encounter where they get to do all of the same stuff and have access to the single most powerful non-3-minute-CD healing spell in the entire game?

There's really no way around it. If shamans are balanced without Healing Rain, because they can get the job done with glyphed Riptide and Healing Surge or whatever, then when you add Healing Rain, they're absurdly overpowered. They can use all of the exact same spells, but replace a HS/GHW with a HR every 10-15 seconds, and that single spell will do as much effective healing as 4 or 5 of the spell they're replacing. Maybe more on a good fight.

To say it a little differently, the following four statements cannot all be true at the same time:

1) Shamans are balanced on spread/movement fights.
2) Holy priests are balanced on spread/movement fights.
3) Holy priests are balanced on stack fights.
4) Shamans are balanced on stack fights.

The difference between spread shaman and stack shaman is roughly 40% from simply replacing one ST heal with Healing Rain every 10 seconds. The difference between spread Holy and stack Holy is roughly zero. Therefore, at least one of the above statements is false. Pick one.
Edited by Kaels on 3/30/2013 12:29 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
It's not the answer you're looking for, but GC's comment that started this whole thread pretty much directly addresses that. They're not balanced at both - they are, in fact, weaker at spread healing.

Yeah, I should have been more clear: I was addressing the question at Riot, who has said that he doesn't believe shamans are all that bad at spread healing (he thinks that there's some way for them to be adequate, although he hasn't been entirely clear on what he thinks that way is).

I think shamans are that far behind on spread healing, which is why I made the thread explaining why I think that's unacceptable.

But in the above post, I'm just trying to get Riot to explain how he sees the state of healer balance.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14235
Yeah, I should have been more clear: I was addressing the question at Riot, who has said that he doesn't believe shamans are all that bad at spread healing (he thinks that there's some way for them to be adequate, although he hasn't been entirely clear on what he thinks that way is).


Yeah, I saw that when I went back over the stuff I skimmed. Guess you got to my post before I did. >>
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