'Spread Healing' is an unacceptable weakness

MVP
100 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
13150
I know you can't speak for the devs and can't be expected to be an encyclopedia of historical class nerf/tweaks/buffs/whatever, but that's why I'm trying to provide the best examples I can of how that would not be the case. Can you explain to me in more detail why you think that a Shaman would cast CH exclusivity with a baseline ranged increase when 25M raids do not do so now and the CH spread problems do not exist there? Is that based on your opinion or just what you remember Blizzard saying?


Think about Chain Heal for a second, then think about what Shamans bring. If you buffed it's range you would have a heal that:

-Increases your health size.
-Gives you a HoT (To be perfectly fair it's on a chance).
-Has a ridiculous range.
-And is a smart heal.

While it's not Healing Rain, buffing the range on CH would just make it stupid efficient to use a lot. The limitations of CH currently are technical and mechanical ones (as far as we know barring the glyph - I can ask GC though), but even they weren't there the developers still probably wouldn't increase the range any more than it is because it would be ridiculous.

I get that people feel like Shaman spread healing isn't where it needs to be at. And for all intents and purposes it's not - but buffing the range on CH isn't going to happen because there's already so much baked into the spell. You have your stacked heals, and then you have ones that are more flexible to be spread around the raid.

And out of all of those heals you want the one that's not only a smart heal but spammable to be your choice? Sorry, but I strongly believe that the developers would be against that.

Sensations suggested to change the RT Glyph to be tweaked a bit so you guys had a better answer to it.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/30/2013 03:26 PMPosted by Practical
The limitations of CH currently are technical and mechanical ones (as far as we know barring the glyph - I can ask GC though),


I don't understand why you keep saying this when there is a Glyph that completely negates that statement. If there were technical and mechanical limitations that prevent CH from having the range extended, why in god's name would they make a Glyph that does just that?
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
It's just a bunch of nonsense leftover from years ago. The devs gave that excuse a long time ago, but the fact of the matter is it no longer applies and the glyph is evidence it isn't true.

Apparently it is also something to add to a comment to make it seem like the comment has more content than it does.

What I find more amusing is citing to earthliving and ancestral vigor as additional reasons a bump in the range of CH would be so OP than shaman would spam it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/30/2013 03:26 PMPosted by Practical
I know you can't speak for the devs and can't be expected to be an encyclopedia of historical class nerf/tweaks/buffs/whatever, but that's why I'm trying to provide the best examples I can of how that would not be the case. Can you explain to me in more detail why you think that a Shaman would cast CH exclusivity with a baseline ranged increase when 25M raids do not do so now and the CH spread problems do not exist there? Is that based on your opinion or just what you remember Blizzard saying?


Think about Chain Heal for a second, then think about what Shamans bring. If you buffed it's range you would have a heal that:

-Increases your health size.
-Gives you a HoT (To be perfectly fair it's on a chance).
-Has a ridiculous range.
-And is a smart heal.

While it's not Healing Rain, buffing the range on CH would just make it stupid efficient to use a lot. The limitations of CH currently are technical and mechanical ones (as far as we know barring the glyph - I can ask GC though), but even they weren't there the developers still probably wouldn't increase the range any more than it is because it would be ridiculous.

I get that people feel like Shaman spread healing isn't where it needs to be at. And for all intents and purposes it's not - but buffing the range on CH isn't going to happen because there's already so much baked into the spell. You have your stacked heals, and then you have ones that are more flexible to be spread around the raid.

And out of all of those heals you want the one that's not only a smart heal but spammable to be your choice? Sorry, but I strongly believe that the developers would be against that.

Sensations suggested to change the RT Glyph to be tweaked a bit so you guys had a better answer to it.


Except you are ignoring the following shortcomings of CH.
1. The throughput of the spell is awful for a smart heal. Healing Wave is more efficient. Until the most recent buff, HS and GHW were both higher HPS.
2. Prayer of Healing completely dominates it in terms of effectiveness. I realize that PoH is not a smart heal, but with smart raid group setup, it is pretty much as good as one. PoH heals for about the same amount as the first jump of Chain Heal (on a RT target), hits 1 extra target, has over twice the radius, doesn't have a ridiculous 30% degradation on every hop. On top of that, it has the same cast time and mana cost as CH. It also doesn't have the rampup of requiring another spell with a cooldown and high mana cost to be first cast on the target you want to use CH on for it to be remotely effective.
3. Even if they made it so that the range was large enough that it would always hit 4 targets, it still would not be spammed. We would not use it over several other abilities that should generally be used on cooldown
4. The smart heal component of the spell is balanced by how difficult it is to use, how easy it is for the chain to get messed up after you have started casting it, and how long the ramp time is. While it is a smart heal, it doesn't have the same level of smart heal based strength that something CoH, LoD or WG do.
5. With a range increase, the most a typical Shaman would cast Chain Heal is probably 2-3 times every 15 seconds. In other words, it would be used no more often than CoH/WG, and is significantly less effective than those spells. If you consider that overpowered, then CoH and WG are also both over the top.
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
Not saying that CH is good, but CoH...isn't really that good. It's more of a spot AoE heal than burst.

WG is a much better example, though.
Edited by Restorata on 3/30/2013 3:55 PM PDT
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86 Tauren Shaman
14225
Thanks for trying to clarify Practical, but that doesn't really answer my question regarding the 25M raid. I'll try to explain it as best as I can since maybe I'm not giving enough detail myself.

-Increases your health size.
-Gives you a HoT (To be perfectly fair it's on a chance).
-Has a ridiculous range.
-And is a smart heal.


Basically, CH does all the things you listed already except for the range, correct? Now, let's examine what would happen if *only* the range increased and nothing else changed for raiding purposes, since this is where the main concerns come into effect.

In 10s: It would have a much higher chance of hitting the maximum amount of targets more often.

In 25s: Little to no impact, as the maximum amount of target are already hit a considerable amount of the time.

Now, going by the tooltips on this website, when CH heals a single target for 6432, GHW is going to heal for 15,438, more than double on single target. Assuming the tooltip has not been properly updated to include the 20% increase yet, CH will heal the first target for 7718, which is still half. Thus, CH would still need to effectively hit 3-4 targets to be "better" than GHW. And if the person *is* hitting 3-4 targets, then that is precisely when they should be expected to use multi-target healing spells. The numbers are placeholders obviously but since I am using the Blizzard tooltips they should effectively scale to match current 90 Shaman theoretical numbers.

This is also not counting for the facts that:

GHW is affected by Tidal Waves and would be faster than CH while under them, would possibly proc AA for an additional smart heal (CH can't proc AA), and chain casting CH would waste TW procs. Consider also that Riptide and HRain are both more efficient and effective than GHW are, and used more often. HS is also considered to be "on par" with GHW depending on circumstances.

This is the math aspect I was talking about, feel free to correct me if you notice an error.

As for the 10 vs 25, as I mentioned, basically nothing changes for 25 man raiding with a baseline range increase alone, as the spell already hits the maximum amount of targets the vast majority of the time there. So by your logic, if boosting the range would make the spell overpowered, it should already be overpowered in 25s because this buff would effectively be meaningless there. But it isn't overpowered there, because not only was it rarely used there over single target healing pre-buff, but Blizzard seems unconcerned with the spell's 25 man performance, even following a very recent 20% increase to effectiveness.

I hope I explained myself well enough. And based on the information I provided you, I simply cannot agree that a CH baseline range increase would make the spell overpowered or used to the exclusion of the rest of the kit.
Edited by Gumshoe on 3/30/2013 4:15 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Woops, sorry for the potential confusion in the convo, posted on my Shaman by accident due to looking up tooltips and spell clarification on him. He's back in his corner.
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90 Troll Shaman
0
I'm talking about how CH would be the go-to spell for everything if it were buffed to some ridiculous degree (any more than it would be now, barring technical limitations).Back then, I think that it's hard to gauge just what was really "abuse" when everyone had a go-to spell, but the reason why Blizzard was so adamantly against CH getting buffed to that point again is because it's literally a spammable smart heal.


I'm sorry but are you really complaining about a spammable smart heal to shamans when atonement is doing so well right now. So by giving 10m shamans a chance to not be outsniped by a disc priest is a bad thing for a castable spell (barring HST as it is fire and forget). Also it isn't just people moving to far apart for chain heal to jump that is the only problem. Even if you choose the perfect person to start the chain but the second person in your chain is healed to full by another healer which happens all the time your chain breaks it does not hit him for an overheal and continue on it just stops. All the 100% increase to jump would do (mainly in ten mans) is allow for that bounce point to be skipped and hit the next bounce point and still allow chain heal to be a decent filler spell.
Edited by Trylinn on 3/30/2013 4:33 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
15530
Do you remember just how much CH was abused in...any expansion outside of Cataclysm?


Don't be silly, CH was used because it's the only tool shamans had. Or are you going to whine about how pallies 'abused' Beacon in Wrath? Or how druids have 'abused' rejuv since the beginning of WoW?

The technical limitations for Chain Heal were given as a reason at the beginning of Cata. I'm guessing that those have since been fixed as WoW's software is continually being updated and improved. The lack of communication on details like that is part of the frustration of being a resto shaman.
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-Increases your health size.

The individual heal of CH is pretty weak, moreso after the first target. Only 10% of that gets turned into AV, and we can't reliably keep AV on many targets outside of an Ultraxion scenario. Compared to DA or IH, AV is really lacking outside of rolling RT on the tanks all fight.

-Gives you a HoT (To be perfectly fair it's on a chance).

Even post buff, ELW heals for so little and is also prone to overheal like most HoTs. CH also has a much diminished chance to proc it outside of on targets with less than 35% hp, and we rarely get to hit 4 targets that are so low before instants get them first.

-Has a ridiculous range.

It has the same range as any other heal? 40 yards. Yes, you could argue that with it you can technically reach targets that are much farther than 40 yards due to the jump mechanic, but it is hardly game-breaking and even with a buff to chain jump rage we would not be spamming it all fight.

-And is a smart heal.

While smart, other smart heals in the game have equal or more power than CH. This is balanced by them having a CD of sorts (CoH, WG, LoD requiring HoPo build-up, etc) and being instant. In ideal stacked situations, CH's smart component has not made the spell overpowered compared to what other healers have; making it more viable outside of stacking scenarios would hardly push that unless it got a huge throughput buff.
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90 Troll Shaman
12525
Simple solution, remove healing tide.
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97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
03/30/2013 03:26 PMPosted by Practical
I know you can't speak for the devs and can't be expected to be an encyclopedia of historical class nerf/tweaks/buffs/whatever, but that's why I'm trying to provide the best examples I can of how that would not be the case. Can you explain to me in more detail why you think that a Shaman would cast CH exclusivity with a baseline ranged increase when 25M raids do not do so now and the CH spread problems do not exist there? Is that based on your opinion or just what you remember Blizzard saying?


Think about Chain Heal for a second, then think about what Shamans bring. If you buffed it's range you would have a heal that:

-Increases your health size.
-Gives you a HoT (To be perfectly fair it's on a chance).
-Has a ridiculous range.
-And is a smart heal.

While it's not Healing Rain, buffing the range on CH would just make it stupid efficient to use a lot. The limitations of CH currently are technical and mechanical ones (as far as we know barring the glyph - I can ask GC though), but even they weren't there the developers still probably wouldn't increase the range any more than it is because it would be ridiculous.

I get that people feel like Shaman spread healing isn't where it needs to be at. And for all intents and purposes it's not - but buffing the range on CH isn't going to happen because there's already so much baked into the spell. You have your stacked heals, and then you have ones that are more flexible to be spread around the raid.

And out of all of those heals you want the one that's not only a smart heal but spammable to be your choice? Sorry, but I strongly believe that the developers would be against that.

Sensations suggested to change the RT Glyph to be tweaked a bit so you guys had a better answer to it.


Before the recent buff to chain heal, it was barely worth more hps then casting healing wave with the glyph of healing wave (and that's assuming chain heal was casted on a riptided target and it hits all 4 people in its jump). Therefore, I have no idea where you got that chain heal was "stupidly efficient". Not only that, Kaels has already pointed out that chain heal is not only affected by the shaman's movement, its also affected by the target(s) movement. If at any point in time one of the target(s) decides to shift slightly during the cast time (remember, the difference between 10 and 13 yards is tiny), the chain heal I just cast will go from hitting 4 people to potentially hitting 1 person. And this is in a 25m raid environment where chain heal is not supposed to be as useless as in 10s!

Furthermore, if at any point the available chaining targets get healed to full HP, the chain just..stops entirely. Given these limitations, I do not think that its unreasonable for shamans to request an increased range so that chain heal can perform its intended role properly. At this point in time, its almost more worthwhile to cast single target heals to get a target's hp up, rather then rely on an entirely unpredictable and unreliable "smart heal" to do its job.
Edited by Fewì on 3/30/2013 11:51 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13745
Blizzard does not yet understand how the shaman abilitys work because they haven't increased chain heals Jump range yet.
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100 Dwarf Shaman
11445
The jump range isn't what worries me, rarely a issue in a 25man setting and in 10man I have no grievances glyphing for the range.

I dislike how it works with riptide and I hate the 2.5sec cast time.

A big chunk of Chain heals healing is the initial target and it is very prone to being sniped. Especially if your trying to setup a riptide -> CH. At the moment its more like I riptide whoever is a good target and if they happen to become a good CH target then great, otherwise I'm chain healing without the +25% because its not worth actively pursuing.

A cast time reduction would go a long way to fixing its shortcomings. Less likely to get sniped, less likely to have the chain broken, the +25% from riptide is easier to utilize.
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Think about Chain Heal for a second, then think about what Shamans bring. If you buffed it's range you would have a heal that:

-Increases your health size.
-Gives you a HoT (To be perfectly fair it's on a chance).
-Has a ridiculous range.
-And is a smart heal.


Practical, are you really saying that Ancestral Vigor and ELW make Chain Heal amazing? Really?

Since you seem to be a little ignorant of Shaman mechanics, I'll explain: Vigor caps at 10% of the target's health, and it doesn't heal or prevent damage. All it does is make healing slightly easier -- which is a real benefit, but not overpowered in any way. Because it's so small, and so difficult to track, it's effectively invisible. In addition, the amount of additional health added is 10% of the amount healed; because Chain Heal is a relatively small amount of healing, the amount of AV health it adds is tiny.

People have already shown the math showing that CH is NOT more efficient than single-target spells even under good conditions.

A question to shamans here: Would you give up AV for a real spread-healing tool similar to Wild Growth?
Edited by Heartsings on 3/31/2013 10:12 AM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
19310
A question to shamans here: Would you give up AV for a real spread-healing tool similar to Wild Growth?


No, because we don't need more homogenization.
Edited by Sensations on 3/31/2013 10:15 AM PDT
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MVP
100 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
13150
Practical, are you really saying that Ancestral Vigor and ELW make Chain Heal amazing? Really?


No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
10510
No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.


Chain Heal under perfect conditions barely does more HPS than a Tidal Waved Healing Wave and has drastically worse HPM...giving it the ability to hit the intended amount of targets more often will in no way make it overpowered.

If Chain Heals range is what breaks it for you, then where is the clamoring over 80 effective yard Atonement healing? It's a smart heal too. Revival is a 100 yards, you can use Uplift on targets that are out of range if they have ReM on them. Why aren't any of those things a problem? Because they don't provide Ancestral Vigor or a measly ELW? Non-sense.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
Simple solution, remove healing tide.


If they did this it would quickly become apparent how dire our situation truly is and how dependent we are on this single talent.
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