'Spread Healing' is an unacceptable weakness

90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
03/31/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Practical
Practical, are you really saying that Ancestral Vigor and ELW make Chain Heal amazing? Really?


No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.


But you're overlooking the fact that the spells basic throughput make it not all that great of a use of the cast time even if they did buff the range.

I raid 25 mans and basically always have max bounces on any chain heal I cast, meaning the improved range is basically a mute point for me. But guess what, I hardly ever use it because it's terrible compared to a couple GHWs.
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No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.


But the things baked into it are TINY. How could you possibly abuse 10% max HP? What's more, those same things are baked into every other shaman spell.

Let's take this from the other direction. In order for a spell to be abused, it has to be the best option in a broad range of situations, particularly ones for which it was not designed -- such as HR being a good option even when it only heals a single target. If Chain Heal became a good option for single-target healing, that would be abuse of the spell, but that's a very simple thing to prevent -- just keep the expected HPS below that of GHW, like it is now.

Increasing the range of Chain Heal does exactly one thing: it allows it to be a FUNCTIONAL spell for 10-man raiders in ToT.
Edited by Heartsings on 3/31/2013 12:00 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
zZq
17390
No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.

Why aren't you addressing the other people posting about this in 25m? In 25m you can hit all 4 targets most of the time. It's currently not spammed in 25m, and those benefits you list are negligable. So if it's not currently OP in 25m, why would a range increase suddenly make it OP?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
The issue to me isnt chain heal really. The issue is too much healing tied up in one spell that requires stacking. If you were to buff the healing of chain heal and take that healing directly out of healing rain shaman would be in a much better spot. Having your weakness be spread out healing is fine. The issue is that the difference between spread out healing and stacked up healing for shaman is too large.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/31/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Practical
Practical, are you really saying that Ancestral Vigor and ELW make Chain Heal amazing? Really?


No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.


ELW is a tiny component of Shaman output - generally 3%-7%. It's free supplemental healing, but it is marginal. It is also far more marginal than supplemental output mechanics that are tacked on to other AOE heals without a 12.5 yard jump limitation, like Divine Aegis, Echo of Light, and Druid and paladin masteries. Also, it only has a 10% chance to proc per CH jump on targets above 35% HP and a 50% chance to proc on targets below 35% HP. A 10% chance to proc a HoT that heals for around 20k (and typically has 50%+ overheal) is hardly even remotely OP or a valid argument against a CH range increase. You are reaching here to a ridiculous degree.
Edited by Tiberria on 3/31/2013 12:20 PM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
14390
Posted by PracticalPractical, are you really saying that Ancestral Vigor and ELW make Chain Heal amazing? Really? No, I'm saying that if you were to increase CH's range you would have a spell that has too much baked in it. People would abuse, or find a way to abuse it.


Seriously, you have no clue how Shaman mechanics work, or any experience actually healing fights this tier or Shaman experience at all.


Lol I have done 0 of the new raid but from the first post he/she made I could tell he didnt know anything about shaman .He really just needs to leave these threads because atm even when he try's to make a point . He/she has no idea what they are talking about
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80 Troll Druid
5670
What I don't understand is why they'd rather design an entire raid tier around said weakness, considerably hampering their options when creating the mechanics of said tier, then to just throw shamans a bone, they did for H pallies.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
I don't know why this got derailed into yet another argument about increasing CH's range. That's a red herring.

1) Increasing CH's range without any other changes would not fix shaman spread healing issues, because CH is a terrible multitarget heal.

CH is pretty bad even by shaman standards. It's well below HR on 3 targets, HST, and Riptide on their priority list. After the recent buff, it's now a better choice than HW and GHW if you can actually hit all 4 targets with it. But not by a whole lot. The case for CH is that you basically get the HPM of HW and the HPS of GHW, if you can meet a set of rather restrictive conditions.

It's downright awful by everyone else's standards, because other healers don't suffer the Healing Rain penalty to the rest of our toolkits.

A comparison I like to do when I'm thinking about the relative strength of a spell is to imagine that it were given to holy priests, keeping all of its secondary effects from the original class and not gaining any of our secondary effects. So, imagining that holy priests get CH, with Shaman mastery, Ancestral Vigor, and the Earthliving proc: When would I use it?

Well, the total heal of CH, post-hotfix, is roughly 19,225 + 174.2% of spellpower. It has a 2.5 second cast time (minus haste) and costs 4.5% of priest base mana. On a target at 50% health, it gets equivalent Mastery benefit to EoL; if the target is almost dead, it goes up to double Mastery.

In Serenity:


Serenity Renew5 is 13,450 + 129.4% of spellpower. It has a 1-second fixed GCD and costs 2.6% of priest base mana, and gains essentially no benefit from Mastery.

So I'd need to be gaining well over 40% Mastery benefit (40% for the base heal, 49% for the spellpower portion) at 25% haste for CH to match the HPCT of Renew. In other words, the targets need to be below 20% health. But that's the red zone; I'm not casting a 2.5s base cast time spell that won't get any of them out of danger. There's already Renew on the targets and I'm casting HW: Serenity, Flash, or Binding Heal.

I only need 21% Mastery for CH to beat the HPM of Serenity Renew, so the target only needs to be below about 60% health. So that's something, right? But I actually need the weighted average of all four targets to be below about 60%. And then I have to factor in that I can roll the Renews, but I can't roll the CH heal. So...nope. Still prefer Renew for HPM at any health level where I'd be considering either spell. Hell, I'd cast PoH in Serenity on 3 targets first.

In Sanc:


Sanc PoH heals for 10860 + 104.8% of spellpower per target. It always gains the full Holy Mastery benefit (so roughly 25%) and has the same mana cost and cast time as CH.

So CH on 4 targets at 50% health is somewhat worse than PoH on 2 targets. CH on 4 near-dead targets is marginally better than PoH on 2 targets at low spellpower values, but falls behind at high spellpower values.

So when do I cast it? Well, it's definitely lower-priority than PoH on 3 targets, because it costs the same and does less healing. At sub-50% target health levels it's about equivalent to (possibly slightly better than) a PoH on 2 targets, but I'd rather have the PoH, with guaranteed hits, guaranteed EoL on the other 3 targets, a chance at a DI proc, and a chance of a third target getting hurt during the cast time, rather than an itty bitty tiny amount of AV and a chance of getting an Earthliving HoT on some of the targets.

So the only time that I might consider using it would be if there were at least 4 people hurt, none of them were in the same group, I could be sure that I'd hit all of them when the cast went off, and CoH and PoM were on cooldown. So I'd never cast it in a 10m (if there are 4 targets hit in 10m, at least two of them are in the same group); I'd only consider it once in a blue moon in 25m. Even then, I probably wouldn't actually cast it, because I'd be better off saving the mana for a PoH later.

CH gets filed away with HW: Sanctuary as "useless." It's really, really bad. As a holy priest, using a bunch of different spells in niche situations is kind of my thing, and I can find a niche for almost anything. I think the only other spells from any healer that I would never find a use for are Nourish, Healing Touch, and glyphed Riptide. All the rest would be useful for something, assuming I had the appropriate supporting spells to make use of their secondary effects. But CH is useless. You could give it a 100 yard jump range and it still wouldn't be good.
Edited by Kaels on 3/31/2013 2:15 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
2) CH can't be buffed to be non-terrible because it would be too strong on top of Healing Rain.

Basically, shamans can't have any spammable spells with much higher HPS than TW GHW/HS or much higher HPM than HW, because then in situations where Healing Rain is actually functional, they'd be ridiculous.

But in order for CH to be even an adequate spread healing tool, its healing would have to be roughly doubled in addition to the obviously necessary range increase. It would have to be competitive with PoH on 4 targets in order for the complete shaman kit (factoring in HST and Riptide) to almost match what a priest can do in the sort of non-optimal circumstances you usually get when the raid is spread. Right now CH is barely competitive with PoH on 2 targets.

So you'd need to be asking for the equivalent of a 100% buff plus a 100% range increase. But the 100% buff alone would be absurd on top of Healing Rain. It would never, ever, ever happen.

It is therefore completely impossible to fix shaman spread healing issues by tinkering with CH alone, and you should all stop arguing about it. A range increase would neither solve your problems (@shamans) nor cause the sky to fall (@Practical). The sort of buff that would solve your problems would also cause the sky to fall, and will therefore not happen.

What needs to happen is that shamans need a spread healing tool that (1) has roughly double the HPS and HPM of current CH, and (2) cannot be used on top of Healing Rain. That is all.
Edited by Kaels on 3/31/2013 2:02 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
What needs to happen is that shamans need a spread healing tool that (1) has roughly double the HPS and HPM of current CH, and (2) cannot be used on top of Healing Rain. That is all.


or includes a massive healing rain nerf.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
or includes a massive healing rain nerf.

That would also work. Problem is then you have to put the compensatory healing somewhere, and the only place you can put it without causing PvP issues is CH. Which means a sky-is-falling never-cast-any-other-spell level of CH buffage.

The best solution I've been able to come up with is a massive CH buff that lasts 10 seconds and shares a CD with Healing Rain. Balance so that HR+CH/HW is still preferable when 6 or more targets are stacked.
Edited by Kaels on 3/31/2013 2:19 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
Practical is correct - some of you really, really need to get your heads out of spreadsheets, and start thinking on your own.

If you increase the jump range on Chain Heal too much, without otherwise restricting the spell (like the current glyph does...) then two things happen:

1) The first restriction on the power of the spell is removed. That restriction being getting 4 targets, every cast, pretty much regardless of raid size.

2) The second restriction is related to the first - CH is a smart heal, and if you open the range large enough, it will hit 4 targets very reliably, regardless of raid size.

If you think that I just said the same thing twice...it's no wonder you can't see past pointless numbers to how this could become very broken, very quickly. Chain Heal is very deliberately resticted, and for very, very good reason.

Riôt
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Practical is correct - some of you really, really need to get your heads out of spreadsheets, and start thinking on your own.

If you increase the jump range on Chain Heal too much, without otherwise restricting the spell (like the current glyph does...) then two things happen:

1) The first restriction on the power of the spell is removed. That restriction being getting 4 targets, every cast, pretty much regardless of raid size.

2) The second restriction is related to the first - CH is a smart heal, and if you open the range large enough, it will hit 4 targets very reliably, regardless of raid size.

If you think that I just said the same thing twice...it's no wonder you can't see past pointless numbers to how this could become very broken, very quickly. Chain Heal is very deliberately resticted, and for very, very good reason.

Riôt


Riot, you seriously need to actually go play a Shaman and come back. People have explained, repeatedly, how little healing Chain Heal actually does. They've explained how it is NOT spammed in 25 man content, even though it consistently hits all 4 targets there (there are enough people for jumps). There's a reason for that. And it's a reason that you and Practical can't seem to get through your thick skulls. The spell isn't overpowered in 25 man, and it would not be overpowered in 10 man if you increased the range without a CD.

This isn't the Chain Heal from Wrath. It isn't the one you remember, not even remotely. It's a very, very weak spell.
Edited by Tiriel on 3/31/2013 2:20 PM PDT
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44 Troll Druid
0
This isn't the Chain Heal from Wrath. It isn't the one you remember, not even remotely. It's a very, very weak spell.


Considering it's less hps than single target heals when stacked... I'll agree. TT.TT
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Practical is correct - some of you really, really need to get your heads out of spreadsheets, and start thinking on your own.

If you increase the jump range on Chain Heal too much, without otherwise restricting the spell (like the current glyph does...) then two things happen:

1) The first restriction on the power of the spell is removed. That restriction being getting 4 targets, every cast, pretty much regardless of raid size.

2) The second restriction is related to the first - CH is a smart heal, and if you open the range large enough, it will hit 4 targets very reliably, regardless of raid size.

If you think that I just said the same thing twice...it's no wonder you can't see past pointless numbers to how this could become very broken, very quickly. Chain Heal is very deliberately resticted, and for very, very good reason.

Riôt


I disagree. You still have to use a little planning with positioning to keep your heal bouncing to all 4 targets, and it already often hits all 4 targets in 25, yet you don't see it being absurdly overpowered in that raid size. Priests can very reliably hit 5 targets with Prayer of Healing and 6 (glyphed) with Chain Heal, Druids can hit 6 with Wild Growth, etc., why should Shaman be crippled by spreading? Why have Chain Heal at all when Healing Rain covers the niche of stacked healing, and does it much better than Chain Heal ever could?

Maybe your points were true in the past, but right now, the restrictions are pointless. Other healing classes don't share the restriction and at a 2.5 base cast time and a 30% healing decrease per jump, we won't see it suddenly becoming the only thing Shaman cast. Right now, the glyph's cooldown, when combined with the already slow cast speed, means that you go a minimum of 6 seconds between Chain Heal casts, and that's unacceptable.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
You're all wound up about CH being a smart heal.

1) Yes, it's a smart heal. But only about 60% of it (vs. 80% for PoM, 80-83% for CH, 80-100% for WG, and 100% for Atonement and LoD) is actually smart. Initial target selection for CH is much more important than for any other smart heal except PoM, even without considering range issues.

2) It's 'less smart' than other smart heals, aside from PoM. At a 12.5-yard range, it only considers targets in a 490 square-yard area for each jump, vs. 2826 square yards for CoH/WG/LoD and 5024 square yards for Atonement. Even if you doubled the range to 25 yards, the area of each smart calculation would only be 1962 square yards, or roughly 2/3 of the area included by CoH/WG/LoD. The caster also only gets to control the center of the calculation for one of the heals (vs. all of them for CoH/WG/LoD/Atonement).

3) It's really, really bad. Even if you pretend that "smart" plus "25 yard jump range" means "100% guaranteed to hit for 100% effectiveness every time", a shaman carefully casting CH on well-selected targets would be less effective than a holy priest in Sanc closing their eyes and rotating through groups while facerolling a keyboard bound to PoH. Dead serious. PoH will hit at least 2 injured targets on average even when cast at random with no concern for health levels (a la Disc from 4.2 through 5.1); fights with heavy raid damage can push that average up to 3 or 4. CH at full effectiveness can't even quite match PoH on 2 targets.

Seriously, you could buff CH range to 100 yards. Or 1000. You could make it so that it's guaranteed to hit the 4 most injured targets in the instance at any time no matter where they are. You could make it so the shaman doesn't even have to choose the initial target, so they could just close their eyes and faceroll - turn it into a 4-target Atonement. The spell would still be bad. It would still have a long cast time, terrible output, and a high mana cost.

It's only acceptable in the context of the shaman toolkit, and only because Healing Rain is so amazing. Take HR out of the equation, or neuter it as happens on a spread fight, and CH is a pathetic excuse for a raid heal.
Edited by Kaels on 3/31/2013 3:30 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
It's only acceptable in the context of the shaman toolkit, and only because Healing Rain is so amazing.


How does HR predicate CH's healing?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
03/31/2013 02:52 PMPosted by Aurinaux
It's only acceptable in the context of the shaman toolkit, and only because Healing Rain is so amazing.


How does HR predicate CH's healing?

All shaman spells, in the current design, must be balanced with the assumption that they are used on top of HR on at least 10 targets. They have to be weak enough to keep the total output of (spell + HR + HST) low enough that it doesn't break encounters, and they have to be inefficient enough to balance HR + HST's efficiency and keep your total HPM in the same ballpark as other healers'.

Which is fine, as long as the assumption is true for enough of the fight. But it's broken when the assumption is broken, because ~40% of shaman intended output is tied up in HR.
Edited by Kaels on 3/31/2013 3:13 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Ah, I read your sentence differently than intended.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
[quote]Practical is correct - some of you really, really need to get your heads out of spreadsheets, and start thinking on your own.

If you increase the jump range on Chain Heal too much, without otherwise restricting the spell (like the current glyph does...) then two things happen:

1) The first restriction on the power of the spell is removed. That restriction being getting 4 targets, every cast, pretty much regardless of raid size.

2) The second restriction is related to the first - CH is a smart heal, and if you open the range large enough, it will hit 4 targets very reliably, regardless of raid size.

If you think that I just said the same thing twice...it's no wonder you can't see past pointless numbers to how this could become very broken, very quickly. Chain Heal is very deliberately resticted, and for very, very good reason.

Riôt


No, you and Practical are the ones that need to get your heads out of the clouds. It's obvious that neither of you have ever played a Resto Shaman in a 10H or 25H progression environment, and while it's easy to conceptually pontificate about spell selection, it is an entirely different environment when you actually start using such spells, and I don't think that either of you would be spouting off this much garbage if you actually had the experience to back up what you are talking about.

1. Chain Heal can already reliably hit 4 targets most of the time in 25 man ToT. Guess what, it isn't remotely overpowered, and you rarely see it ever hit even 15% of a competent Shaman's spell selection. Increasing the jump range would just make it also reliably hit 4 targets in 10 man raids. What makes you think that it would be any more overpowered there than it is in 25 man currently?
2. The spell itself is a steaming pile of crap even when it hits 4 targets off a Riptide target. For one thing, we already have several things that are higher priority and higher throughput than attempting to cast a Chain Heal, such as dropping HST, casting Riptide, casting HR or ULE - HR, recalling HST, dropping any of MTT/HTT/elemental totems, etc when appropriate.
3. You can theorycraft all you want about the fact that CHx4 - RT is technically the HPM of HW and slightly higher HPS than GHW. That is true in theory. In practice, you have all kinds of things to worry about like movement, like the fact that even if you have an ideal CHx4 target, if Riptide isn't on that target, you are looking at 3.6 seconds of ramp time. If you action that, the initial target could well be topped by another healer before you have 3.6 seconds, or you have to move before you can execute it, or in the 3.6 seconds it takes to get it off, one of the targets in the chain gets topped or moves, or whatever. Even if RT is on the target, those things can also happen within 2.2 seconds.
4. In spite of all the theorycraft, if you have the option between hitting a GHW or HS on a 50% HP target versus bouncing a CH off that target or off 4 other targets, you are almost always better off using the single target heal, because you get more mastery benefit, you reduce the chance of that target getting gibbed, and you can more reliably get the cast off instead of worrying about all the limitations of Chain Heal.

There is no way a baseline increased jump range would be overpowered. People that say that don't understand the current mechanics of the class and what playing the class in an actual raid environment is about.

The main problem with increasing the range has nothing to do with it being overpowered, and everything to do with the fact that it won't matter much. The spell is still as limited and weak when it hits 4 targets. 25 man Resto Shaman are still really terrible at spread healing compared to every other healer even with the ability to hit 4 targets most of the time. It would be a change that would do nothing for 25 man Resto Shaman, barely help 10 man Resto Shaman, and distract attention from the actual mechanical weaknesses of the spec.
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