Noob Rogue needs help with spec/rotation/gear

90 Worgen Rogue
3050
Hi Everyone,

I am new to level 90. I am really trying to get geared up, but I have been putting out low DPS in dungeons since I can remember. I know I am doing lots of things wrong, but I'm not quite sure how to identify/solve my problems.

I was using the sub spec shown below for a while - http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/rogue/subtlety/talent-build-and-glyphs

Then I saw this on wow insider - http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/03/13/encrypted-text-how-to-play-a-rogue-in-patch-5-2/#continued

To be honest, I have no idea what I'm doing. I know that I need to get my spec and roations down before anything else. I'm just not sure where to look for most updated info on PvE. I'm just used to using copying other peoples builds as I'm not terribly familiar with MMO RPG's in general.

I also looked through this sticky {http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6758626681}, but I'm having a hard time understanding the terminology and the breakdowns. I would like to be able to contribute to my guild's raiding efforts, but I'm not even doing well in Heroic Dungeons so raiding is out of the question.

I have no problem switching specs or trying new playstyles. I need help with everything.
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90 Human Rogue
3930
I find anticipation kinda pointless. Try out marked for death?

are you keeping rupture and slice n dice up? theyre pretty important in keeping your energy and damage up.
Edited by Velexin on 3/29/2013 11:50 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
3930
single target sin priority for dmg should look something like this:

open with ambush>dispatch when possible>mutilate to build cp and blindside procs> keep rupture up on as many mobs as possible>keep slice n dice up, refresh with envenom>envenom when your capped on cp and rupture still has a while left

for aoe, i believe its just rupture and fan of knives?

what poisons are you using?

subtlety is mediocre for pve, in my limited experience. stick with assassination or even combat
Edited by Velexin on 3/30/2013 12:02 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
8650
03/29/2013 11:50 PMPosted by Velexin
I find anticipation kinda pointless. Try out marked for death?
Anticipation's utility comes from your sudden inability to waste cp, and the ability to "bank" cp for when buffs proc.
It's more useful for Mut than the other two. Mutilate generates two cp and Seal Fate gives extra cp on crits making it's cp generation very plentiful but not very predictable.

TL;DR Anticipation lets you always use 5cp finishers without risking losing cp due to overflow.
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90 Orc Rogue
16760
Use Anticipation for Raiding or bosses in 5mans. MfD is great for questing/dailies/leveling/trash mobs.

Try Combat for dungeons... its probably the easiest 5man dungeon build, especially for starters. But you need an axe or mace or fist or sword weapon in your main hand. Mandatory combat glyph would be the Adrenaline Rush one. For spec; shadow focus, leeching poison and Anticipation. Granted they're all somewhat "up to you", but highly suggest shadow focus and anticipation for sure.

You need more expertise and hit. 7.5% is the cap for both expertise and hit. (but that is against raid bosses and level 93 mobs. 5man heroics are level 92 I believe. So not quite 7.5% for those).

Reforge into expertise/hit first. After that the order for Combat typically is: Haste > Mastery > Crit. So, if you have a piece with crit - ALWAYS reforge it into exp/hit first. Once you are near the hit and exp caps, reforge that crit into haste. Items without crit, reforge out of mastery.

You need to enchant and gem your gear. Even if its the cheaper gems/enchants, just do it. Enchants and gems are better for your character at the start of an expansion, then they are at the end.
Edited by Whiteytighty on 3/30/2013 12:34 AM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
3930
TL;DR Anticipation lets you always use 5cp finishers without risking losing cp due to overflow.

if you get in the habit of dumping cp with envenom, your damage will only thank you for it. I can kinda tell ahead of time when im about to go into a big cp generating burst, and act accordingly
im really just shooting in the dark here, but it would seem like having MfD is to good to pass up. having a reliable way to put up a 5 point rupture, right of the bat, seems pretty important.
Edited by Velexin on 3/30/2013 12:25 AM PDT
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90 Orc Rogue
16760
03/30/2013 12:22 AMPosted by Velexin
TL;DR Anticipation lets you always use 5cp finishers without risking losing cp due to overflow.

if you get in the habit of dumping cp with envenom, your damage will only thank you for it. I can kinda tell ahead of time when im about to go into a big cp generating burst, and act accordingly


Its better to always use 5point envenoms/Rupture. Can't do a mutilate at 4 points, as that is a DPS loss. Just use anticipation to "bank" those extra points. Use a mod to help track how many extra points you have.

Putting up a 5 point rupture at the start of a 5+ minute fight and only being able to use MfD once every minute does not compare to Anticipation.

I should also add - boss fights with LOTS of adds, MfD could come out ahead. And - as I've mentioned before... MfD is great for doing dailies. Lots of fun.
Edited by Whiteytighty on 3/30/2013 12:36 AM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
3930
Putting up a 5 point rupture at the start of a 5+ minute fight and only being able to use MfD once every minute does not compare to Anticipation.

I see
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90 Undead Rogue
10005
Just wanted to post in the rogue forums and this is a good place to do it.

Assassination spec with Anticipation- Deadly poison, Leeching poison(PvE)
1. Open with Ambush, Garrote or Mutilate (Muti).
2. Use Slice and Dice (SnD), then Mutilate until 5 combo points (CP).
3. Rupture those 5 CP, then Mutilate for 5 more.
4. Envenom those 5 CP. Rinse and repeat.

Use cooldowns and trinkets once Rupture and poisons are up, always keep Rupture and SnD rolling, only Envenom will refresh the SnD, nothing will refresh Rupture.

Deadly poison should be 35%+ of your total damage, check your meter to be sure and always have it applied for PvE.

AoE use Fan of Knives (FoK) while swinging on a target thereby generating 5 CP, SnD those 5, FoK 5 more CP, and Crimson Tempest those 5. Rinse and repeat.

Always Tricks of Trade (ToT) the worst trash talker on the boss pull in LFR.

ALWAYS USE 5 COMBO POINTS.

When shopping for a Japanese motorcycle, be sure your feet can touch the ground close to flat-footing, and look for a bike with less than 20k miles.

Have a nice decade=)
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90 Worgen Rogue
5775
I wasn't sure if I was doing my priorities when it comes to my rotation right. Ty guys for reassuring me :)
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90 Worgen Rogue
3050
I'm very happy to see all this new info. Thanks to everyone for posting helpful responses so quickly.

03/29/2013 11:50 PMPosted by Velexin
are you keeping rupture and slice n dice up?

Yep. I keep the s&d and rupture going, using envenom to refresh s&d (dispatch when available).

what poisons are you using?

Deadly and leeching

... stick with assassination or even combat

I saw the article (that I linked to in the OP) on wow insider " Encrypted Text: How to play a rogue in patch 5.2" and that's when I decided I wanted to try out combat.

@Kiljagen
Anticipation's utility comes from your sudden inability to waste cp, and the ability to "bank" cp for when buffs proc.

I've noticed this and I really like the extra points.

I hate to ask this... What does "cp" stand for?

It's more useful for Mut than the other two. Mutilate generates two cp and Seal Fate gives extra cp on crits making it's cp generation very plentiful but not very predictable.

You can say that again. I never knew how it worked, but I did notice the extra points.

Anticipation lets you always use 5cp finishers without risking losing cp due to overflow.

So good. I love using a finisher only to find I have another one right around the corner.

03/30/2013 12:20 AMPosted by Whiteytighty
Try Combat for dungeons...

Sounds great!

For spec; shadow focus, leeching poison and Anticipation

That is interesting.

Any reason you'd recommend leeching over elusiveness?

Any thoughts about the build listed in the article I linked to from wow insider?

Like I said, I really dont know much about this, but I'm really trying to understand what makes a good DPS spec and why. I'd like to try different pay styles and see which fits me best. I gotta crawl b4 I can walk (I want to be sprinting :P) That's why I ask so many questions.

Reforge into expertise/hit first. After that the order for Combat typically is: Haste > Mastery > Crit. So, if you have a piece with crit - ALWAYS reforge it into exp/hit first. Once you are near the hit and exp caps, reforge that crit into haste. Items without crit, reforge out of mastery.

That's really good to know. I'll get on that right away. I thought I had to get my valor point gear b4 I needed to start reforging, gemming, and enchanting my gear.

Its better to always use 5point envenoms/Rupture. Can't do a mutilate at 4 points, as that is a DPS loss. Just use anticipation to "bank" those extra points. Use a mod to help track how many extra points you have.

Which mod/addon do you use to keep track of that?

@Prickly
Just wanted to post in the rogue forums and this is a good place to do it...When shopping for a Japanese motorcycle, be sure your feet can touch the ground close to flat-footing, and look for a bike with less than 20k miles.

Have a nice decade=)

Zing!

Assassination spec with Anticipation- Deadly poison, Leeching poison(PvE)
1. Open with Ambush, Garrote or Mutilate (Muti).
2. Use Slice and Dice (SnD), then Mutilate until 5 combo points (CP).
3. Rupture those 5 CP, then Mutilate for 5 more.
4. Envenom those 5 CP. Rinse and repeat.

Use cooldowns and trinkets once Rupture and poisons are up, always keep Rupture and SnD rolling, only Envenom will refresh the SnD, nothing will refresh Rupture.

Is that what you have been using lately?

P.S. - Anyone know why some of the quotes associated the correct profile names and most of the others didn't? Found that weird becuase I just highlighted the text and clicked the quote button that appeared. Did all of the quotes the same way, but only a few quotes were properly labeled...
Edited by Venquix on 3/30/2013 9:28 PM PDT
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90 Orc Rogue
16760
cp = combo points

Elusiveness is a good talent to use over leeching. I just think leeching is better for those starting to learn a rogue. Leeching requires no extra buttons... you simply attack and get small heals. While Elusiveness requires "feint" to be used, which costs energy. If you know how to time it right for certain fights/encounters, it will be better than leeching. Otherwise - I'd stick with leeching until you feel more comfortable.

It has no impact on dps - but if you use feint during your rotation, it is a dps loss. Though a dead rogue does 0 dps.

I personally use IceHUD to track the extra points from anticipation. I've been using the mod since wrath. However; it puts a HUD up in the middle of your screen, which you might not like. Plus I had to make a custom tracker for anticipation points. This could be bad if you don't know how to work with mods. Perhaps another person will suggest another easier add-on for anticipation. Or just try google'ing it.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
03/30/2013 09:25 PMPosted by Venquix
Any reason you'd recommend leeching over elusiveness?
Depends on the fight, really. Leeching provides healing based on your damage, which is a nice constant bit that will keep your health going up steadily (though you'll still need heals). Elusiveness is good for fights where you need to curb incoming damage, as in, Ultraxion (if you raided in Cata). Cheat death is meh. Not totally useless in all situations but you'll generally want one of the other two

Any thoughts about the build listed in the article I linked to from wow insider?

Like I said, I really dont know much about this, but I'm really trying to understand what makes a good DPS spec and why.
Blizzard has made talents more for utility than DPS; i.e., there is no longer a cookie-cutter spec (well, there is, but changing your talents won't kill your DPS; even losing anticipation entirely is only 6k DPS for Cloaked). Tiers 1 and 6 are the only ones that directly affect DPS; tier 4, our mobility tier, does help get us around (particularly shadowstep in PvE), and the longer we can attack, the more damage we are doing, obviously.

That said, the spec listed is by no means end-all be-all. Everything with talents is situational.

To get you on the right track, here's a bit o' info:

Tier 1: Nightstalker is awful DPS. Why? It only works on the first attack out of stealth, and it's only a 25% damage increase. That may be good for lower levels, but it's almost nothing for us; it isn't even taken for subtlety which is the spec with the most focus on openers. Shadow Focus, by comparison, gives us a free attack (you will just about regenerate its low energy cost over the global cooldown), which is great for starting a rotation up. Subterfuge is good for subtlety, but it's fickle. Rather, Shadow Focus is simpler, so Cloaked has always liked it.

Tier 2: None of this affects DPS. Deadly throw, however, is an extra interrupt, which allows us to interrupt more often (at a cost of DPS). Besides that, there isn't much that helps on boss fights. Combat readiness is not going to keep you alive long (bosses hit like trucks, we are in low armor and not crit-immune), nor is it good for you to be tanking the boss. Nerve strike, well... there aren't too many mobs that can be stunned (though there are some, see Horridon adds), but when there are, it could help reduce damage on the raid/tanks.

Tier 3: Healing/damage reduction tier. Leeching provides healing-per-attack, so it's a nice choice because we don't have to do anything. Elusiveness is nice for reasons listed above: on-demand damage reduction. Cheat death sucks. It hardly even works in PvP. Anyway, you'd generally take leeching unless you specifically need to reduce damage (feint alone reduces aoe damage, and that 50% reduction is often enough).

Tier 4: Mobility. Shadowstep is great! Its range is kinda low though. BoS is pretty nice, especially since it gives you something to do with the energy that you won't be using because you're not on the boss; however, if you're not on the boss this much (or constantly switching targets which you are far away from) you may want to take Shuriken Toss.

Tier 5: Control! Don't even think about paralytic poison in PvE. Just don't. Don't do it. Cloaked is serious. Anyway, Prey is the only damage increase here--when it actually works. When there's a stunnable mob, the whole raid gets 10% more damage. That's probably why they took it. The gouge/blind joint ain't worth it 99/100 times it just ain't.

Tier 6: Cool stuff! Now... ST you would only use if there's significant downtime where you can't be on the boss; but in its current state, using ST/deadly throw can actually do some nice DPS. EX Cloaked sustains about 70k on the heroic training dummy as melee, but with only ST/DT, Cloaked can stick it out at about 50k DPS. 50k DPS. From range! Wow! MfD isn't really good if its duration runs out. It's best when it gets refreshed like POW POW POW POW POW! On a fight where you focused on adds it'd be cool. Otherwise go for anticipation.

Speaking of UIs, Cloaked wonders if Blacksad's UI tracks anticipation CPs.
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90 Worgen Rogue
3050
Thanks to whitey and cloaked for all the input. Im much closer to understanding the little details and how everything works together. That said, I know I have a long way to go...

cp = combo points

...If you know how to time it right for certain fights/encounters, it will be better than leeching. Otherwise - I'd stick with leeching until you feel more comfortable.

It has no impact on dps - but if you use feint during your rotation, it is a dps loss. Though a dead rogue does 0 dps.

I personally use IceHUD to track the extra points from anticipation. I've been using the mod since wrath. However; it puts a HUD up in the middle of your screen, which you might not like. Plus I had to make a custom tracker for anticipation points. This could be bad if you don't know how to work with mods. Perhaps another person will suggest another easier add-on for anticipation. Or just try google'ing it.

CP=combo points.

I have used leeching most of the time in the past and will probably continue it until I learn more about how to use feint. When is the right time to use feint?

I guess I'll keep a eye out for some rogue addon guides to track the cp generation/usage in the future...

Subterfuge is good for subtlety, but it's fickle. Rather, Shadow Focus is simpler, so Cloaked has always liked it.
Please forgive me for this next one... what is cloaked?

Deadly throw, however, is an extra interrupt, which allows us to interrupt more often (at a cost of DPS).
What interrupts should I be using?

Tier 3: Healing/damage reduction tier. Leeching provides healing-per-attack, so it's a nice choice because we don't have to do anything. Elusiveness is nice for reasons listed above: on-demand damage reduction. Cheat death sucks. It hardly even works in PvP. Anyway, you'd generally take leeching unless you specifically need to reduce damage (feint alone reduces aoe damage, and that 50% reduction is often enough).
In addition to having leeching selected, I've been trying to use feint when I think about it, but I'm really not sure how and when to use this.

Tier 5: Control! Don't even think about paralytic poison in PvE. Just don't. Don't do it.
Never used paralytic poison becuase I usually have both deadly and leech or sometimes just deadly on. Is there any time that just deadly poison would used without leeching?

Anyway, Prey is the only damage increase here--when it actually works. When there's a stunnable mob, the whole raid gets 10% more damage. That's probably why they took it. The gouge/blind joint ain't worth it 99/100 times it just ain't.
Do I use kidney shot with full CP?
Edited by Venquix on 4/2/2013 2:26 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Rogue
3050
How do I know when I've reached 7.5% expertise and hit?

I'm new to http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ and I'm not sure how to see when I need to stop reforging Expertise and Hit and start working on Haste.
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89 Pandaren Rogue
10975
Please forgive me for this next one... what is cloaked?


Cloaked is there name:P There talking in third person basicly:)
Edited by Deadcolor on 4/6/2013 12:19 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10005
If you will sprint to your character panel, mouse over the Expertise stat in the melee section, you will see your chance to MISS a level 90, 91, 92, 93/skull/boss. You can miss by being DODGED or PARRIED as you can see on the section. Just looking at Expertise in the melee section will tell you how much you have gained against that miss. Each level between characters and NPCs creates a certain percentage of MISS, this percentage grows as the gap between levels increases.

Example L90 Rogue attempts to stab L93/skull/boss.
The boss dodges him 7.5% of the time, parries him 15% of the time but only from the front,
makes his dual wield miss 25% of the time and occasionally creates a glancing blow (not common). Adding expertise reduces the bosses dodge and parry chance to zero when capped to those numbers. Adding Hit to 7.5% as well allows all yellow attacks (specials-mutilate, sinister strike, backstab) to never miss at the 90-93/skull/boss gap.

This game got a little complicated back at the end of Vanilla when they started adding hit to armor. Then in TBC they added haste to complicate things more. If you want to be really confused but really informed, go read on Elitist Jerks forums how rogue should be 'performed'.
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90 Worgen Rogue
3050
04/06/2013 12:18 AMPosted by Deadcolor
Please forgive me for this next one... what is cloaked?


Cloaked is there name:P There talking in third person basicly:)


That's embarassing. Now everyone point and laugh at me for being brainless...

Thanks for sticking around to help prickly! I appreciate the advice everyone has contributed. I am seeing large improvement just from reforging. As of right now, I'm 6.66% hit and 6.5% just from reforging. Now I'm gonna go get a gem or two. After that I'm going to get some good rogue enchants to help even more. Any tips on which enchants to look at?

Any other advise about my gearing?

I was using subelty, but now I'll try the assination spec to both solo dailies and do dungeons. That will leave me room for a PvP spec.

Anyone know where I can find a good PvP spec. I have a full set of Crafted PvP gear for now...
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90 Human Rogue
13000
There's a sticky guide at the top of the forum with all the enchants that you need. You can also use shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com to help you optimize your character.

I would stick with your favorite spec until you learn the ins and out. You can do fine as assassination in pvp.
Edited by Aeriwen on 4/11/2013 4:33 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Rogue
3050
Great! Thanks Aeriwen, I'll go check out the stickies.

Sounds good. I'll just use the same assassination build for soloing dailies, dungeons and PvP.
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