Dream of Cenarius [non-Feral]

90 Troll Druid
14580
Something needs to be down about this talent. It's unpopular in PvE and "meh" in PvP (and only in Arenas at that). DoC is definitely one of the hardest spellcasting mechanics to learn and play properly. The issue becomes that is added difficulty provides a literal hinderence in actual play. While it doesn't require a robot to play, there a few simple, yet often, PVE mechanics that ruin spellcasting (such as forced movement). Because DoC is so tied to hardcasting Healing Touch, is simply the worst choice for Guardian and Balance, regardless of the the fact a Guardian has to hardcast a 2.5sec Healing Touch, out of Bear Form, possibly while tanking a boss that auto-attacks for 400-500k on non-tank players.

Look at these numbers, updated very often. 2+/13H players only.
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statspve-talents-11-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
(March 29)

Balance - 0%
Feral - 45%
Guardian - 0%
Resto - 0%


The ONLY reason why Feral is viable with DoC is because Predatory Swiftness makes your next Nature spell instant and not drop Cat Form. While it does require a lot more focus and precision than other builds, it's still very hard to play and performs very well when executed properly. Even then, for DoC's intended purpose of off-healing the raid (somewhat) is just adding difficulty to the build. Honestly now, no one trying to maximize their damage will Healing Touch the raid. It's either macroed to themselves or a tank.
The issue is how strict DoC spellcasting truly is. If you're casting Healing Touch, then Cosmic Barrage is being cast in your direction -- well you got interrupted! There goes that 2sec of hardcasting, try again! It would take you nearly 5sec to get your rotation back in order. As a Balance druid, if you lose 5sec like this, it's probably during Nature's Grace as well (losing 33% of Nature's Grace is awful)...and with nothing to show for it. When the little disruptions start to add up, you begin to realize just how flawed this "off-heal the raid and deal damage" becomes.

Heart of the Wild (HOTW) is better passive damage. Nature's Vigil (NV) is stronger burst with passive healing to the raid through damage output. These talents are simple to use. They have a clear intended usage (use NV with your big cooldowns), use HOTW to pop a ridiculously strong Tranq, or DPS for a little while when not tanking/healing. Above all, there really isn't much to pay attention to. You can focus on your core abilities. You cannot do this with DoC. As a Balance druid, I'm used to the idea I need to be in a particular Eclipse at a certain time, sometimes I need to adjust my spellcasting to speed up or slow down. I'm trying to predict where I will be in Eclipse, and where I need to be 30sec in advance. Certainly not something that can be called "easy" or "faceroll." With the added complexity of DoC, DoC becomes too difficult to use for it's reward. I know I can pull the same DPS with HOTW or NV, so why would I purposefully subject myself to such a brutal spellcasting system, such as DoC?

Below are a few suggestions to DoC. Having four (4) specs completely different from one another does not make DoC easy to balance. Making DoC tuned to each spec will simply bring better end results.

Guardian:
Whenever you use Mangle, you gain Ursoc's Resolve, causing Mangle to deal an additional 2% damage. Stacks up to 5 times. Whenever you reach maximum stacks you gain Blessing of Ursoc; the stacks of Ursoc's Resolve are consumed. Blessing of Ursoc allows your Healing Touch to be cast in any form and reduces the cast time of Healing Touch by 100%. Healing Touch cast this way will always be a critical hit. Stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 60 sec.

Restoration:
Your Wild Growth, Rejuvenation, Lifebloom, and Tranquility will grant the druid Blessing of Cenarius each time they are applied to friendly targets. Stacks up to 20 times. Every time 20 stacks are reached, Blessing of Cenarius will be consumed. Up to 3 nearby friendly targets are healed for [2041 + 45% of Spell Power] individually. Blessing of Cenarius also helps to cleanse the area around you, dealing [6045 + 54% SP] to enemies.
(WG only applies one stack per cast, Tranq applies 1 stack per HOT application)

Feral:
Your Healing Touch grants your next 2 melee abilities 25% additional damage. In addition, Healing Touch is duplicated to 2 nearby friendly targets for 50% of the original amount.

Balance:
Reaching an Eclipse state causes you to radiant with energy, healing up to 3 nearby friendly targets for [6071 + 50.3% of Spell Power]. When dealing damage to targets below 35% health, your Starfire, Starsurge, and Wrath will extend the duration of Moonfire and Sunfire by an additional 4 sec.
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90 Night Elf Druid
18445
I agree with what you have said, and love the suggestion for Balance.

On a whole, I think any of the healing on any of the 3 talents has to be smart healing. It should automatically take the lowest hp target in a 40 yard range of the boomkin.

And I'm not sure if the 35% --> 4 second increased uptime on a DoT will be good in the long run because we're refreshing our dots anyway at the start of an Eclipse. So it gives you one or two extra ticks maybe - come next tier, where our haste will be slightly higher too, it'll scale less.

I personally would do a +dmg dots below 35% targets instead of +duration. That's just my opinion though :)

The other side of the coin is that no matter the suggestions we bring for boomkins, it'll likely just fall on deaf ears or, rather, blind eyes. They are already removing the radius of beam which is a huge misstep in PVP. If they wanted to add glyph of Omens, they should have just added it w/out playing the size of beam.

Either way, I'm not having any more hopes for boomy fixes. Even if it is a fix, it comes more at a cost and the "buff" is mostly a compensatory buff for an initial nerf.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
04/02/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Wispurrs
And I'm not sure if the 35% --> 4 second increased uptime on a DoT will be good in the long run because we're refreshing our dots anyway at the start of an Eclipse.

Meant to be a total of 6sec on Critical strike with respective nukes. I can play around with ideas, but I'm liking the execute mechanics, it needs to be able to translate to ~15% damage for 35% uptime, and 20% for 20% executes. (HOTW/NV are ~6-7%)

How about this:

Balance:
Reaching an Eclipse state causes you to radiant with energy, healing up to 3 nearby friendly targets for [6071 + 50.3% of Spell Power]. When dealing damage-over-time with Moonfire and Sunfire critical strikes on a target below 35% health, your Shooting Stars chance is increased to 100%.
?
Edited by Cyous on 4/2/2013 7:03 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
7405
On top of being excessively clunky, DoC has the worst off-healing use of the 3 talents. Nature's Vigil actually has pretty powerful off-healing without having to sacrifice your time dpsing, with an approximately 10% of your dps being converted to smart healing. Hotw can be used at your discretion to temporarily add an extra healer to the group. DoC, on the other hand... not so well implemented.

It was amazing enough to see this talent go live in that state. It was more amazing still to see Blizzard content to leave it unchanged despite the fact that it was only viable for one of the 4 druid specs.
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90 Night Elf Druid
18445
Meant to be a total of 6sec on Critical strike with respective nukes. I can play around with ideas, but I'm liking the execute mechanics, it needs to be able to translate to ~15% damage for 35% uptime, and 20% for 20% executes. (HOTW/NV are ~6-7%)

How about this:

Balance:
Reaching an Eclipse state causes you to radiant with energy, healing up to 3 nearby friendly targets for [6071 + 50.3% of Spell Power]. When dealing damage-over-time with Moonfire and Sunfire critical strikes on a target below 35% health, your Shooting Stars chance is increased to 100%.
?


I love the 2nd idea for PVE, but for PVP, you're gonna have people raging over guaranteed SS procs from multi-target dotting in a BG. I mean considering you have dots on, say, even 2 targets below 35%, then you're likely to get 3-4 SS procs in a row quite frequently.

How do you feel it to be balanced in PVP?
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90 Troll Druid
14580
How do you feel it to be balanced in PVP?

Dynamic updating.
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90 Night Elf Druid
18445
Dynamic updating.


maybe it's too early in the morning... but how does that work. More importantly, what does that even mean? :S
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90 Troll Druid
7405
Targets healed up above 35% wouldn't proc it. Likewise, a target brought down to 35% would automatically give you a starsurge for every dot crit from dots already on it. That would increase our short-window burst pressure. I like it.
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90 Troll Druid
8670
The solar beam nerf still has me peeved. As well as the nv nerf that has made it largely dropped in favor of hotw for boomkins I wonder why we aren't a focus. We are simply not completely broken yet not being given any attention while working us around other specs and classes.

In terms of DoC, I love your idea of having it heal upon reaching eclipse but I don't know about the execute mechanic in guaranteed starsurges. Maybe they could nix the healing touch requirement and simply make the dots stronger without having to cast healing touch. Would that be too powerful? Heal upon reaching eclipse and stronger dots passively... or maybe dots that last longer... Not great on single target but maybe amazing on multi dot fights. Then again some kind of execute mechanic might be very nice as we are already pretty good on multi dot fights, I just worry that 100% proc rate will be somewhat op (for reasons wispurrs said) if not very very fun :)
Edited by Halfatree on 4/3/2013 2:16 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
18445
Targets healed up above 35% wouldn't proc it. Likewise, a target brought down to 35% would automatically give you a starsurge for every dot crit from dots already on it. That would increase our short-window burst pressure. I like it.


Ahhh now I understand - that'd be balanced (pun intended) + unique. Not sure about the programming side of it though.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Ahhh now I understand - that'd be balanced (pun intended) + unique. Not sure about the programming side of it though.

We have spells that have updated dynmically for a very long time, DOTs didnt snapshot crit for Balance until 5.2; I would imagine the code exists, the functions following the trigger event would obviously need to be modified to the desired output.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Maybe they could nix the healing touch requirement and simply make the dots stronger without having to cast healing touch. Would that be too powerful?
If you think about it this way, HOTW is already a passive increase. NV is an activated increased. Why not make a reactive increase? It's different from the other talents through this perspective. :)
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90 Troll Druid
8670
You know, on second thought, I really like your idea. Other classes already have strong executes and this one is kind of different. Summon a blue! Come on mr. blue, send this one to the devs!
Edited by Halfatree on 4/3/2013 4:12 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
17085
I would almost rather see the balance option being sub 35% your dots are refreshed to their max duration from starsurge critical, and starfire/wrath each fully refresh their respective dots sub 35%

It would be like ferals rip, and allow balance to roll one hasted, mastery dot from each eclipse on sub 35% targets. It would not be a huge boost with the exception of trinkets like unerring vision, and would reward the use of that kind of proc.
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90 Troll Druid
8670
I was just thinking about what we lack... What about a movement dps talent? I know warlocks already have one and they don't like casters always casting on the move but how amazing would it be to have this weakness filled?
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90 Troll Druid
14580
I was just thinking about what we lack... What about a movement dps talent? I know warlocks already have one and they don't like casters always casting on the move but how amazing would it be to have this weakness filled?

Movement DPS is getting gutted soon, no point imo.
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90 Troll Druid
7405
Movement DPS is getting gutted soon, no point imo.


What's the source for this?
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90 Troll Druid
14580
04/04/2013 07:39 AMPosted by Velaniz
Movement DPS is getting gutted soon, no point imo.


What's the source for this?

Recent twitter posts, earlier twitter posts. Quite frankly, we wont be effected at all. But it would provide valid logic to why moonkin and spriest movement dps is awful is comparison. To be fair, Ele's need Unleashed Lightning because they have no instant source of damage outside SWG.
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90 Troll Druid
17085
If shaman had their shocks unlinked then they would have movement dps, 3 separate 6s CD's and I know that ele would like earth shock and flame shock unlinked.

Back on track though, DoC. SOMETHING needs changed here, and not just a numbers pass, it needs altered for different specs to make it a legitimate talent choice.

Hell, for movement DPS (for balance) Blizz could give it the effect where you are always at full stacks of lunar shower. It would be a small boost to normal damage, not having to stack the buff. That and passively boost the direct damage by 15% or so giving MF/SF a +150% modifier to the direct damage portion of the spells.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Back on track though, DoC. SOMETHING needs changed here, and not just a numbers pass, it needs altered for different specs to make it a legitimate talent choice.

Yeee-up. Still 0% for the 3 speccs in question. Not much more to add here :(
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