Durumu and LFR

90 Goblin Hunter
11845
Again, take 25 random people who are not going to research videos on the internet before queueing and tell me how we are supposed to just "know"?


They aren't. They are supposed to die and learn from their mistakes and improve. I see nothing wrong with this model, even in lfr.
100 Troll Priest
13765
You guys must be doing a different fight than I am because it's really easy to see the maze and the safe zone at the beginning.
100 Night Elf Hunter
18235
04/03/2013 10:40 AMPosted by Bashiok
I'm personally ok with it if I'm not able to roll over every fight the first day it's available on the LFR.


Are you personally ok with groups deciding to wipe on purpose to get 10 stacks of the Determination buff? I'm not sure if that was the developers design purpose....no offense. But the way YOU play the game has little to no affect on anyone else. Having a majority of people trying to get the entire group of 25 to 'get naked and wipe over and over' is not okay by any stretch of the imagination.

I personally think a sense of progression can be had, even in a group of 25 strangers.


I think you're right, but the actuality is that it just does not usually happen that way.

04/03/2013 10:40 AMPosted by Bashiok
The fight has been available for 1 day to most of the people attempting it. I'm not sure that's enough information to claim that it's too hard for LFR.


Fair enough, but it's still probably a tad much for 25 strangers to coordinate. Not everyone is going to enjoy it the way you did and a lot of people will be scared out of doing it again for a very long time.

2 different LFR groups of mine had massive issues with the maze.

I finally figured it out, but by the end quite a few people were saying they were 'afraid' to see that fight on Normal.

I'm not sure if the point of LFR is to scare people away from raids, but the new one certainly has. There is far too much here for a group of 25 strangers to deal with. Honestly those two groups, for the first time in the history of me doing LFR....became almost like regular groups. It felt like all we were missing were Normal mechanics and Vent. By the time we got to the last boss, someone had to afk....but did not want to, asked if it was possible for us to hurry. The response was one I've never seen in LFR before....

"Well, we've been in here for like 3 hours. Maybe we should just call a 5 minute break?"

So many people were okay with this! I've never seen an entire LFR group agree to take a 5 minute break! An LFR break!?

Unfortunately we had enough people have enough trouble on all the bosses that we really were in there for 3 hours (my second time through, on this Hunter...my first group was in there for about 2 hours). I'm not sure if an LFR that consists of three bosses should take anyone 3 hours to complete. I realise Normal modes take about that long for 10 people...and that's fine. I'm wondering why casual players who are queueing for LFR for fun are stuck in a 3 hour time sink though. I liked it, but I don't think all the people that had to leave before we downed the first boss liked it.

The repair bills are hefty, not everyone has Jeeves so we kept having to teleport out and back in. Loot is unreliable at best at the moment and going through LFR in such a way (hiking up repair bills because no matter how much you do the right thing, other people in the group will mess up) costs more gold than it is worth to some people.

When there is an insta kill mechanic in LFR happening at the same time the entire room is filling up with color and sound and other damage dealing effects...it makes it hard to coordinate yourself....let alone 24 other people. They don't know what to do and I can't explain it and hey....there aren't always 15 people to make up for the work of the others....sometimes there's only 5 people who actually know what they are doing.

But maybe it really is too soon to tell. I'll see next week if this LFR is still scaring off more casual players.
Edited by Amberlynh on 4/3/2013 1:03 PM PDT
90 Goblin Hunter
11845


They aren't. They are supposed to die and learn from their mistakes and improve. I see nothing wrong with this model, even in lfr.


WHat actually happens:

They don't improve. They rely on determination to zerge the boss so that he only does that wipe phase once instead of twice, and hope that 10 people live.


If that is what people want to do then let them. Don't ask for a nerf to fights because of a failure to adapt and improve though.

The coloring on the ground did take me some time to get used to on normal but eventually did get it down in melee most of the time. I did eventually just go to the outer ring though because it is a lot easier and the path is incredibly clear. I understand the desire to ask for changes to that, just not the fight overall. I also don't think you should change animation just for lfr, people should be able to practice mechanics like that in lfr before doing it on normal if they want to.
Edited by Sayne on 4/3/2013 1:03 PM PDT
Community Manager
No offense, but you're not really engaging the substance of his post, which is that the "maze" mechanic is incredibly difficult to distinguish. You have a dark floor with a dark purple overlay, with a dark purple fog over that overlay. I had to TURN DOWN my settings to distinguish the maze in normal.

The problem isn't the cones or the other mechanics. The problem is the maze portion of the fight which is difficult to see and distinguish. I think when you have a mechanic where you have to DECREASE your settings to be able to play. You ought to reconsider or fix those settings.


Quite right, most are not saying it's too hard as a mechanic, just that visual effect needs alteration to make it more... attemptable even. I don't think that's something we'd disagree with. The effect went through a number of changes on the PTR, including very late in the testing cycle to try to resolve some performance issues it was causing. It's certainly a doable fight, but I think it's safe to say we don't think it's perfect as-is.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16025
The mechanic isn't a bad one, but I agree the graphics representing it are horrible, and you don't get much chance to figure out what's going on before you're dead (hopefully not quite so much the case anymore w/ the recent hotfix)
Edited by Saraxia on 4/3/2013 1:09 PM PDT
100 Tauren Druid
14110
The part that bothers me when an LFR boss is too hard and requires more than a few attempts is that it begins to spiral into a Dramafest. People start fighting about strats, pointing fingers at each other, and even getting trying to get people to vote kick players just b/c they are not on an English speaking server. Recently a tank was kicked from a group I was in after several wipes on the Tortos bat trash just because his gear was xmogged into a PvP set and convinced enough people in the group that he was in PvP gear for a raid. The people that think they know everything start abusing people like their the raid leader from the Ony movie by Wipe Club. I know we have reporting tools and whatnot for people cursing and whatnot, but a LFR encounter shouldn't be so hard for a random group that people get to that point. Then half the raid bails b/c not only are they frustrated from the overtuned encounter, they get even more upset b/c for all that trouble and drama, they get a Failbag and a bonus roll of just gold.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
11425
No offense, but you're not really engaging the substance of his post, which is that the "maze" mechanic is incredibly difficult to distinguish. You have a dark floor with a dark purple overlay, with a dark purple fog over that overlay. I had to TURN DOWN my settings to distinguish the maze in normal.

The problem isn't the cones or the other mechanics. The problem is the maze portion of the fight which is difficult to see and distinguish. I think when you have a mechanic where you have to DECREASE your settings to be able to play. You ought to reconsider or fix those settings.


Quite right, most are not saying it's too hard as a mechanic, just that visual effect needs alteration to make it more... attemptable even. I don't think that's something we'd disagree with. The effect went through a number of changes on the PTR, including very late in the testing cycle to try to resolve some performance issues it was causing. It's certainly a doable fight, but I think it's safe to say we don't think it's perfect as-is.


But are you at least gonna let the developers know? Any hopes of the graphics getting addressed? Or should it be standard that
a) Change your graphic settings to low
b) Stack as many perseverance stacks in order to make the maze moot.
90 Human Rogue
12330
The lovely purple goo made my computer frame rate less then happy. I died 4 times in a LFR trying to get to that opening...it was instant death time after time. I only survived when I poped a cooldown and embraced the goo. 30k a tic dmg is nothing compared to a insta-death beam.

The changeing my camera angle trick will help me in the furture, thank you for that one. I do agree that the purple mist graphic needs to be revised. Perhaps taken down to knee height in LFR only.
100 Orc Warrior
14810
This Thread is completely ridiculous.... eye sores in LFR don't hit hard enough to kill anyone, and as long as you don't stand in the BIG BRIGHT BEAM coming out of his face you cannot die to that phase of the fight. Even with over half the raid dead yesterday from the first beam phase we still killed Durumu. If anything this fight needs buffs to the other phases so that healers actually have something to do on that fight.
Edited by Ezmaurelda on 4/3/2013 1:17 PM PDT
100 Draenei Mage
19025
The maze is definitely hard to figure out the very first time you see it (purple on purple on purple), but there are some predictable openings and safe spots to start in. You just don't have very much time once the rest of it spawns to figure that out before you're dead from Eye Sore.
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Look backwards to go forwards.

nuff said
90 Troll Priest
3095
Check out this vid of ptr durumu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1j6YMKCxA (start at about 2:40). This is what I think the maze should look like. None of this swirling garbage making even the clear path look blocked.

Just my 2 cents though.

I absolutely LOVE the maze mechanic! What I don't love, is not being able to see where I'm going because my graphics are "too good"?
Edited by Trëize on 4/3/2013 1:30 PM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
14035
No offense, but you're not really engaging the substance of his post, which is that the "maze" mechanic is incredibly difficult to distinguish. You have a dark floor with a dark purple overlay, with a dark purple fog over that overlay. I had to TURN DOWN my settings to distinguish the maze in normal.

The problem isn't the cones or the other mechanics. The problem is the maze portion of the fight which is difficult to see and distinguish. I think when you have a mechanic where you have to DECREASE your settings to be able to play. You ought to reconsider or fix those settings.


Quite right, most are not saying it's too hard as a mechanic, just that visual effect needs alteration to make it more... attemptable even. I don't think that's something we'd disagree with. The effect went through a number of changes on the PTR, including very late in the testing cycle to try to resolve some performance issues it was causing. It's certainly a doable fight, but I think it's safe to say we don't think it's perfect as-is.


The problem is with the maze phrase, you are expecting 25 random people to do something correct in LFR, and knowing LFR isnt the best system in the world to learn when some people screw around, or afk. But to sum up what im trying to say is that LFR is supposed to be easy and a learning experience for normal/herioc mode, it shouldnt be too hard for 25 completly random people to do. Im not trying to make it so brainlessly easy, but it is LFR and you get alot of people that dont know what to do.
100 Undead Death Knight
8380
Its LFR

The time being wasted for the majority of peeps on repeated wipes on this guy is just not appropriate for the reward of the worst pve gear of the tier

Nor is it appropriate for a group of barely coordinated strangers

Most peeps are only able to beat this guy because of the determination buff. It shouldn't be balanced around that requirement for LFR. It is OVERTUNED.

I sure don't get any sense of progression from LFR. When you enter LFR you know its for the worst gear of the tier and you are expected to complete it. Thats why it is released later than the normal/heroic versions.

I have no idea what Bliz's target time is for an LFR segment but I'm positive this is causing it to go well over that target time for the vast majority of lfr puggers.

My god man, data is already available on the average amount of wipes being spent on LFR kills on this guy. Tons and tons of kills on him. Stop wasting our time with an overtuned boss please?
90 Troll Druid
14580
Quite right, most are not saying it's too hard as a mechanic, just that visual effect needs alteration to make it more... attemptable even. I don't think that's something we'd disagree with. The effect went through a number of changes on the PTR, including very late in the testing cycle to try to resolve some performance issues it was causing. It's certainly a doable fight, but I think it's safe to say we don't think it's perfect as-is.

I think people will learn how to do the maze if you actually give them the right way to approach it.

some things guilds used during heroic progression:
- Chat Bubbles : Disabled
- Ground Clutter : Low
- Particle Density : Low
- Texture Resolution : Low

This makes it REALLY easy to see.

In addition, you need to be very patient. The beam isn't going to kill you in melee, Eye Sores will. The reasoning behind this is everyone is getting "panicy" because the Death Beam is getting close. You just sit there, not sitting in Eye Sores, and wait for the Maze's path to open.

Patience. That's really all it takes. I think if you stress this, people will learn this mechanic quickly and you will be on your way to Primordius in LFR-relative no time.
Edited by Cyous on 4/3/2013 1:35 PM PDT
100 Orc Warrior
14810
Check out this vid of ptr durumu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1j6YMKCxA (start at about 2:40). This is what I think the maze should look like. None of this swirling garbage making even the clear path look blocked.

Just my 2 cents though.

I absolutely LOVE the maze mechanic! What I don't love, is not being able to see where I'm going because my graphics are "too good"?


I honestly disagree with you here man, what's the point in even having a maze if you can see the path so easily and just run in a strait line around the room as it disappears? Now I'd agree if the path were more visible, but the maze was more difficult to navigate. Where if you made a bad choice you would have to pop a cd to get through eye sores, or back track at the risk of dying to the beam.
90 Troll Priest
3095
Check out this vid of ptr durumu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1j6YMKCxA (start at about 2:40). This is what I think the maze should look like. None of this swirling garbage making even the clear path look blocked.

Just my 2 cents though.

I absolutely LOVE the maze mechanic! What I don't love, is not being able to see where I'm going because my graphics are "too good"?


I honestly disagree with you here man, what's the point in even having a maze if you can see the path so easily and just run in a strait line around the room as it disappears? Now I'd agree if the path were more visible, but the maze was more difficult to navigate. Where if you made a bad choice you would have to pop a cd to get through eye sores, or back track at the risk of dying to the beam.


Yeah you're right. I agree with you that all that's needed is more defined safe zones and the "fog" to disappear a little faster.
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