PTR build: Glyph of Unleashed Lightning

90 Draenei Shaman
8755


They have a good reason to call people Huntards because you fit the description perfectly with that statement.

You want to share on the idea that ranged should not be able to move whatsoever? Ok, fine then. Mages, priests, boomkins, and elementals can't move while casting. Then the same should go for both locks and hunters. Your instant spells now have a 0.5 sec cast time.

I'd say give to all instead of give it to none.

Most warlocks agree, notice agree, that KJC gives them a boost a vast majority of the classes do not have. Most warlocks agree, notice again AGREE, that KJC will not be with us next expac.


Wow getting personally attacked. Feels weird since I'm always the one keeping things constructive.

They're going to axe them. Ghostcrawler has even stated many times via the Twitter feed that you obviously don't keep up with that he hates the amount of ranged mobility atm, mainly at Warlocks, Shaman, and Hunters. Even Aspect of the Fox got removed and us being able to be fully mobile with the reasoning of "we heavily dislike doing this but don't have another workable solution yet."

Come next expansion, our mobility is going to be borderline nonexistent. Ranged mobility is going to be the target of many a nerf akin to the mass AoE nerfing in the Cata beta. My point, before you idiotically started insulting me, is that Blizzard is just not going to bother balancing around Unleashed Lightning mobility, much like they gave up on Aspect of the Fox vs Hawk, until the next beta rolls around and they can start axing mechanics.

Ranged being completely mobile is BAD and exacerbates the arms race between melee and range. Hunters should not be as mobile as they are. Neither should Shaman. Or Warlocks. It's a better solution to make us more uniform with mobility instead of adding the same level to everyone else as suddenly that means more instant casts are needed, more melee gap closers/CC, and would make being a melee DPS in PvE more of a disadvantage. As more emphasis on dots, instant casts, and mobility have creeped up in the design of range, melee DPS have becoming more and more obsolete unless they're some massive outlier doing tons of damage (Assass Rogues, Unholy DKs currently.) They make us less mobile, they can start pruning some of the CC and gap closers and making PvP less of a mindless CC fest.

Ghostcrawler is going to gut our mobility. It's coming. And it honestly needs to in order to keep the balance between melee and ranged DPS and keep both with pros and cons.


A class can't be reduced to zero while mobile.

A Hunter always had instant shots and auto shoot + pet damage
A Druid always had moonfire
A Mage can currently spec for scorch
A Warlock had Felflame (which, did the job perfeclty fine BTW) + pet damage
A Priest was mostly screwed.

If our Shocks were on CD, and we had no LS procs at the time Shaman were reduced to zero without the glyph. Every class should have a weaker alternative to go to when on the move, but I don't think there's anyone that will disagree in saying there's too much mobility within ranged classes right now. Getting Bolt castable while moving baseline is the least of the evils, really all these patch notes should say is we got 5% haste with Lightning Bolt and 10% more passive DR.

We only need it because Blizzard refuses to give us something that wouldn't reduce us to zero. I'd be fine with a weak spammable instant cast like Felflame, or an okay spammable attack like Scorch (they are a big difference because in PvP you can get school interupted with the latter and not the former). The only difference is right now we've always been able to cast LB on the move, giving us what we SHOULD have would be a sizable nerf for a spec that's not doing well in PvP (only decent ratings are in RBG's) and we're currently one of the lowest DPS specs in PvE.

I perfeclty 100% agree this should go away at next expansion. It would just be beyond moronic to nerf a spec that's already struggling. This change is nothing more than a small band-aid. If anything, Blizzard is screwing up and giving Elemental too much PVE reduction. We were fine with just Stone Bulwark/Astral Shift, last patch Elemental got Shammy Rage, and now we're getting 10% for pretty much free (RE: A glyph slot that was mandatory anyway). If anything, they're attempting to bandaid the ever loving crap out of the spec because they realized just how much they screwed up our offensive and defensive capabilities.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12345
04/01/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Ponderous
"Nice things" ? Casters do NOT need to be basically moving turrets. We don't, period....and i'm playing the most turret spec in the game currently, and I still don't want to be able to smite on the move. No sane caster wants this....hell, even locks have been saying against KJC.


Elemental shaman are not "moving turrets." Outside of RNG procs, we hard cast a lot. We are one of the easiest casters to lock down. I agree that overall, mobile casting is a bit out of hand, but trying to point to this and elemental shaman as the problems is silly. And it's not like Lightning Bolt even hits that hard in PvP.

Yes, some specs have way too much mobile casting, but elemental isn't one of them.
Edited by Odomus on 4/2/2013 5:52 AM PDT
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04/02/2013 05:51 AMPosted by Odomus
"Nice things" ? Casters do NOT need to be basically moving turrets. We don't, period....and i'm playing the most turret spec in the game currently, and I still don't want to be able to smite on the move. No sane caster wants this....hell, even locks have been saying against KJC.


Elemental shaman are not "moving turrets." Outside of RNG procs, we hard cast a lot. We are one of the easiest casters to lock down. I agree that overall, mobile casting is a bit out of hand, but trying to point to this and elemental shaman as the problems is silly. And it's not like Lightning Bolt even hits that hard in PvP.

Yes, some specs have way too much mobile casting, but elemental isn't one of them.


Yeah, Unleashed Lightning might seem like too much at first glance, but without it, Elemental's mobile dps drops almost to zero; all you can do is have Flame Shock tick on the target for pathetic damage, use a weak Shock spell on a cooldown, having Searing Totem tick, and pray for a Lava Surge proc. You can also use SWG every 2 minutes, but that doesn't solve the problem. Before Unleashed Lightning, Elemental were dead last on any fight that requires movement.

Some people are saying that no caster should be able to be mobile, but then we need to design encounters around that. So many encounters require movement and it's unacceptable for ranged dps to suddenly lose 90% of their dps because they have to avoid boss mechanics.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8755
@Disagreed,

The thing that separates alot of those abilities is that they were movement spells or pretty much fillers.

Comparing scorch and felflame is bit misleading. FF is just a spell that is instant that just extends the duration of dots, we spammed it while moving last expac.

Scorch is a similar mechanic but it serves another purpose. It helps proc pyroblasts through heating up. Now that got backed into the fire spec entirely and is no longer a talent due to arcane using it.

Whereas FF is just a spammable spell, scorch adds a sense of mobility to fire in the sense that they can still do their rotation and generate procs with a slightly weaker nuke than fireball. I believe they had scorch in cata but I am not sure if it worked in a similar manner as today.

I say with classes that have dots such as locks, boomkins, and spriests, give them some sort of spell that works in a manner to scorch. Has the chance to proc haunt, starsurge, or mind blast. These are in the game but are tied to a specific set of dots and RNG.


They kind more or less do the same thing when you think about it though.

Old Fel Flame used to extend DoT duration, which was no where near optimal while standing still but still a decent enough ability to have while being mobile. Scorch uses that same mentality (for fire at least). I'm not saying the DPS numbers are fine where they are at, personally I think the direct damage segment on FF was a little high, but it's the concept of it.

Not that it would work today, but let's assume a spell like this.

Electric Shock
Instant Cast
Does 2/3 the damage of lightning bolt, generates Fum charges but can not proc Echo or Lightning Overload (Mastery)

That is a perfectly balanced spell. You'd still generate Fum charges but be penalized for having to be mobile. You're DPS would be cut down in over half due to it not being able to work with Echo or our Mastery. The problem is, too many other classes like Hunters and Warlocks right now have even to this point on the Lightning Bolt being baseline, WAAAY better damage while being mobile than Elemental.

The kicker is, they can't touch any ranged's OP movement right now without first taking stabs at melee's gap closers. Both have to happen at the same exact time. Melee should learn to love their OP movement as should ranged, they all really need to go away drastically. I'm not even sure if Spiritwalkers Grace should survive through next expansion, and if it does it might need to be Resto only.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8480
@Disagreed,

The thing that separates alot of those abilities is that they were movement spells or pretty much fillers.

Comparing scorch and felflame is bit misleading. FF is just a spell that is instant that just extends the duration of dots, we spammed it while moving last expac.

Scorch is a similar mechanic but it serves another purpose. It helps proc pyroblasts through heating up. Now that got backed into the fire spec entirely and is no longer a talent due to arcane using it.

Whereas FF is just a spammable spell, scorch adds a sense of mobility to fire in the sense that they can still do their rotation and generate procs with a slightly weaker nuke than fireball. I believe they had scorch in cata but I am not sure if it worked in a similar manner as today.

I say with classes that have dots such as locks, boomkins, and spriests, give them some sort of spell that works in a manner to scorch. Has the chance to proc haunt, starsurge, or mind blast. These are in the game but are tied to a specific set of dots and RNG.


They kind more or less do the same thing when you think about it though.

Old Fel Flame used to extend DoT duration, which was no where near optimal while standing still but still a decent enough ability to have while being mobile. Scorch uses that same mentality (for fire at least). I'm not saying the DPS numbers are fine where they are at, personally I think the direct damage segment on FF was a little high, but it's the concept of it.

Not that it would work today, but let's assume a spell like this.

Electric Shock
Instant Cast
Does 2/3 the damage of lightning bolt, generates Fum charges but can not proc Echo or Lightning Overload (Mastery)

That is a perfectly balanced spell. You'd still generate Fum charges but be penalized for having to be mobile. You're DPS would be cut down in over half due to it not being able to work with Echo or our Mastery. The problem is, too many other classes like Hunters and Warlocks right now have even to this point on the Lightning Bolt being baseline, WAAAY better damage while being mobile than Elemental.

The kicker is, they can't touch any ranged's OP movement right now without first taking stabs at melee's gap closers. Both have to happen at the same exact time. Melee should learn to love their OP movement as should ranged, they all really need to go away drastically. I'm not even sure if Spiritwalkers Grace should survive through next expansion, and if it does it might need to be Resto only.


SWG is fine imo. It's a CD, and would be used when necessary. What you said here is what i've been saying this entire time, so 100% agree.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
This kind of stuff is going away eventually. Hopefully completely and totally with the next expansion. I think that the hints the devs have given about spell casters regarding movement dps, instant cast spells and cast time spells are clear. We are supposed to hard cast. Movement is supposed to be a penalty for ALL of us. It was mind boggling to see a blue post basically laying out this vision for ranged dps (yes, that includes hunters) and then have hunters totally freed from it.

I don't really see the problem with mobility. Our dps is balanced around our mobility, which is one thing all the butthurts don't seem to understand. Just because we have good mobility doesn't mean we are somehow dominating the meters. Hunters are the most mobile ranged class in the game right now yet look at where we are on the meters...
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55 Worgen Mage
11525
04/02/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
This kind of stuff is going away eventually. Hopefully completely and totally with the next expansion. I think that the hints the devs have given about spell casters regarding movement dps, instant cast spells and cast time spells are clear. We are supposed to hard cast. Movement is supposed to be a penalty for ALL of us. It was mind boggling to see a blue post basically laying out this vision for ranged dps (yes, that includes hunters) and then have hunters totally freed from it.

I don't really see the problem with mobility. Our dps is balanced around our mobility, which is one thing all the butthurts don't seem to understand. Just because we have good mobility doesn't mean we are somehow dominating the meters. Hunters are the most mobile ranged class in the game right now yet look at where we are on the meters...


And you'll be balanced around low-medium mobility next expansion when Blizzard takes the nerfbat to all mobility and the billion gap closers.

I'm resigned to bein decidedly worse than Warlocks and Hunters any time mobility enters the equation this expansion and entirely look forward to the horrid nashin of teeth and cries of despair when everyone, includin my lovely Frost Mages, have to deal with standin still in the next expansion.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8755
04/02/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
This kind of stuff is going away eventually. Hopefully completely and totally with the next expansion. I think that the hints the devs have given about spell casters regarding movement dps, instant cast spells and cast time spells are clear. We are supposed to hard cast. Movement is supposed to be a penalty for ALL of us. It was mind boggling to see a blue post basically laying out this vision for ranged dps (yes, that includes hunters) and then have hunters totally freed from it.

I don't really see the problem with mobility. Our dps is balanced around our mobility, which is one thing all the butthurts don't seem to understand. Just because we have good mobility doesn't mean we are somehow dominating the meters. Hunters are the most mobile ranged class in the game right now yet look at where we are on the meters...


Did you even read what people are saying, or even think about what you were posting before you posted?

There isn't a single person that say's in the current model that high mobility isn't absolutely required, people are saying that model is beyond stupid and needs to go away.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
There isn't a single person that say's in the current model that high mobility isn't absolutely required

So every single raid group is absolutely stacking elemental shamans and hunters then? What the hell does "absolutely required" even mean?

And you'll be balanced around low-medium mobility next expansion when Blizzard takes the nerfbat to all mobility and the billion gap closers.

Fine, that is all hunky dory, but I get tired of all the butthurt casters that get jelly of other ranged classes having good mobility with the typical attitude of "If I can't have it then nobody can!"
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13470
And you'll be balanced around low-medium mobility next expansion when Blizzard takes the nerfbat to all mobility and the billion gap closers


billion gap closers.


gap closers.


Mr. Paladin is stopping by just to wave hello for a moment.

PS: Instant movement is fun. High mobility can be balanced by simply decreasing the benefit of uptime (more resilient targets/more penalties for getting into range). The flip side is classic: range get caught, they die; melee get rooted, they die.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12790
I've been playing my Elemental shaman in PvP a lot lately. It's challenging and frustrating, but my current conclusion is that the significant strengths and weaknesses are a model for other casters; in turn, the generous amount of shutdown abilities melee possess need to be reduced, even if it's as surgical as severe DR.

The changes are ultimately in the wrong direction, but they make good sense for competition under Mist rules.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9190
This is not that big of a buff. In PvE, every shaman used the glyph, and we don't exactly have some huge DPS glyph sitting around to replace it. The 5% cast buff is nice, but it's pretty minor. If they took away casting on the move we'd need a real dot to make up for it. When we talk about dmg on the move, don't forget that dots are also dmg on the move.

In PvP, ele shaman spend so much time locked down that we use LB primarily to bait interrupts so we can freely cast LvB and Ele Blast. If we get interrupted casting Ele Blast, all our schools our locked.

Casting on the move is fun, and I think it's a good game mechanic. It's not a problem with PvP. The over abundance of CC is the problem with PvP. I'd trade a cast-while-moving LB for a strong DoT and a spammable instant. Being able to pressure your opponent while out of LoS is more beneficial than casting while running. But that would make us more like mages, and variety is important.
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90 Goblin Warlock
15430
1) For all the people claiming KJC it's pretty terrible in pvp due to the snare it applies that stacks with other snares I'm about 90% sure. Also it's use in PVE when having to move is often a hinderance considering the new version has no option other than to snare at all times if you cast while moving. So if you are in the place of omg move out or die, you cannot cast whereas let's say a mage can blink or as it stands now an ele shaman can LB without a thought otherwise.

2) To the person who claimed that fel fart used to fill the role of casting while moving I say wtf..... fel farts were always just that. They did and still do next to no damage. The only saving grace they have is they can generate embers, but if you have KJC and are not in danger of dying with movement, you can cast them I guess for that. Othewise, fel farts are and always have been only slightly better than not casting at all.

3) Shamans getting 1 spell extra that they can cast while moving is just fine. They should have however baked the haste penalty in since just about everyone else has some sort of penalty or can only cast a meh ability on the move. Claiming how hunters can do SS or CS on the move baseline is silly since they could already technically anyway and it's a resource generator. Locks self snare to cast on the move, mages only get scorch and instants, moonkin only get procs and moonfire and same goes for SP.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
They should have however baked the haste penalty in since just about everyone else has some sort of penalty or can only cast a meh ability on the move


You do know that this glyph applies to lightning bolt, right?
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90 Orc Hunter
17445
04/02/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
There isn't a single person that say's in the current model that high mobility isn't absolutely required

So every single raid group is absolutely stacking elemental shamans and hunters then? What the hell does "absolutely required" even mean?


There is this entire half of the game called PvP you know.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
04/04/2013 03:07 PMPosted by Evilmon

So every single raid group is absolutely stacking elemental shamans and hunters then? What the hell does "absolutely required" even mean?


There is this entire half of the game called PvP you know.

Yes, PvP where hunters and elemental shaman are dominating the scene.
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90 Worgen Mage
11090
04/02/2013 05:26 PMPosted by Jabawock

I don't really see the problem with mobility. Our dps is balanced around our mobility, which is one thing all the butthurts don't seem to understand. Just because we have good mobility doesn't mean we are somehow dominating the meters. Hunters are the most mobile ranged class in the game right now yet look at where we are on the meters...


And you'll be balanced around low-medium mobility next expansion when Blizzard takes the nerfbat to all mobility and the billion gap closers.

I'm resigned to bein decidedly worse than Warlocks and Hunters any time mobility enters the equation this expansion and entirely look forward to the horrid nashin of teeth and cries of despair when everyone, includin my lovely Frost Mages, have to deal with standin still in the next expansion.


Do you even know what a frost mage dps rotation requires? And how little spamming ice lance does?
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