Shadow needs more love in PVE

90 Undead Priest
12065
I feel stronger on single target fights than I did last patch, thanks mostly to PI and Insanity. I may not be topping the charts as I do in multi target fights, but I generally find myself appearing in the top 5-8. Which is much better than fighting to stay above tanks or with the bottom 12-17.

I am also completely fine with our damage on the move. The mobility of casters is stupid, and I am glad for the fact that when they DO do their overhaul in the next expac and gut everyone's mobility, they won't even have to touch us. And at that point? We will be better than average, I'd wager.

What we do have for mobility isn't even all that bad. It is just different:

- SWP spamming.
- The option of FDCL for multitarget helterskelter, or Mindbender for a single target with heavy movement
- Divine Insight for helterskelter, such as Durumu.
- Shadowy Apparitions are still a factor often overlooked, especially since they have been fixed.
- Lvl 90 talents, obv.

The above toolkit, in a pre MoP world, would actually be considered a decently mobile class.

Edit:

Also I think I see what your problem is. Your gear, while a decent ilvl, is largely healer gear. It is very light on baseline haste. Once you start to shift to a more haste heavy setup, you will see a huge difference.

I know I cringe every time I win a piece of gear that doesn't already have haste on it.
Edited by Erebos on 4/4/2013 9:24 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
04/04/2013 09:07 AMPosted by Slant
their single target needs buffing. every fight that is 1 boss and no adds they are bottom of the barrel.

You're supposed to perform better on some fights than others. That's generally OK, as long as overall you're in the middle of the pack.

There are some fine points to it; if a spec is middle of the pack for all of normal modes and most of heroics but terrible on heroic Lei'shen and Ra-den and your guild is blocked on those bosses, you'll be hurting.

But we don't have heroic data yet, and it seems unlikely that we'll ever have enough data on heroic Lei'shen or Ra-den while they're current content in 5.2 and 5.3. So that's a difficult call to make.


Did you know there are specs better than shadow in aoe and single target. there are specs only a little worse in aoe but roflstomp them in single target. are you saying its ok to be great in aoe but absolutely terrible in single target. But again yes you can say "its gotten stronger". But only more data will tell but so far based off the first heroic boss (should have good data and i pointed out before that it had much more data than the data mages had on first week) its not looking good. But again i did say they were preforming really great this tier because it favors multi-doting.

I feel stronger on single target fights than I did last patch, thanks mostly to PI and Insanity. I may not be topping the charts as I do in multi target fights, but I generally find myself appearing in the top 5-8. Which is much better than fighting to stay above tanks or with the bottom 12-17.

I am also completely fine with our damage on the move. The mobility of casters is stupid, and I am glad for the fact that when they DO do their overhaul in the next expac and gut everyone's mobility, they won't even have to touch us. And at that point? We will be better than average, I'd wager.

What we do have for mobility isn't even all that bad. It is just different:

- SWP spamming.
- The option of FDCL for multitarget helterskelter, or Mindbender for a single target with heavy movement
- Divine Insight for helterskelter, such as Durumu.
- Shadowy Apparitions are still a factor often overlooked, especially since they have been fixed.
- Lvl 90 talents, obv.

The above toolkit, in a pre MoP world, would actually be considered a decently mobile class.

Edit:

Also I think I see what your problem is. Your gear, while a decent ilvl, is largely healer gear. It is very light on baseline haste. Once you start to shift to a more haste heavy setup, you will see a huge difference.

I know I cringe every time I win a piece of gear that doesn't already have haste on it.


Its stronger but bear in mind that everyone elses is stronger as well.
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91 Draenei Shaman
4410
04/04/2013 12:06 PMPosted by Fayte
are you saying its ok to be great in aoe but absolutely terrible in single target.

Yes, if that means you perform well overall in current raid content.

If the next tier has less opportunities for AE or multi-dotting, it's suddenly not OK.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
04/04/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Slant
are you saying its ok to be great in aoe but absolutely terrible in single target.

Yes, if that means you perform well overall in current raid content.

If the next tier has less opportunities for AE or multi-dotting, it's suddenly not OK.


Thats cool but why does dk do better than Spriest on both aoe and single target than?

Better yet, why does aff lock do about the same as shadow on aoe and better than them(by leaps and bounds) on single target.

Double standard?
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91 Draenei Shaman
4410
Because balance is hard.
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90 Human Priest
9180
I honestly think some classes need nerfs rather then buffs to shadow.

There are a couple fights that allow us to pad meters that stops us from being on the bottom on overall charts. But if you take those fights out and look at them indvidually you will see we are scraping along toward the buttom a lot.

Are there other specs out there that are worse? Of course, but also being that we only have 1 DPS tree we don't have a lot of options.

Shadow is not horrible but its not close to great either. Its just... ok... I do find it frustrating that even if I play perfect and I am in better gear then another player its hard to make number one. It didnt feel that way in past expansions except for BC, and not until later tiers thanks to frostweave tailoring.

When people say "Shadow is really strong" I can't help but stratch my head. Its not really strong, its really just ok.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Because balance is hard.


worst part is that shadow is in a position where the only way to buff their single target without any drastic change is buff mind blast and DP. if they buffed those pvpers would Q.Q.. If they tried to buff anything else than it would effect their multi-Doting.
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90 Undead Priest
12065
*shrugs* IDK, I may not be a god on single target, but I still feel stronger now than I did before. I know other classes have scaled up as well, but I feel that at least now I can match up with them instead of watching from the gutter waiting and hoping for more fights like Elegon to crop up.

As I said, I often find myself in the #5-8 spots in my raid on single target, and while none of us are God's gift to raiding, there seem to be some pretty knowledgeable people here. I've gone a bit higher when RNG and cooldowns lined up properly, but yeah. Still better than previous raids where without a dramatic abusal of ToF we were left behind.
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91 Draenei Shaman
4410
worst part is that shadow is in a position where the only way to buff their single target without any drastic change is buff mind blast and DP. if they buffed those pvpers would Q.Q.. If they tried to buff anything else than it would effect their multi-Doting.

I don't PvP, but does shadow Mind Flay much in PvP? Couldn't they buff Mind Flay (and nerf Insanity to compensate so that talent isn't suddenly OP).
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90 Human Priest
9180
I think they could buff the damage to VT and if they thought it necessary restrict how many targets it can be on. This dot has a cast time so its not as easy to multi-dot with.

Honestly, there is a million different things they could do, they just don't want to at this time. Perhaps after they finish balancing us in PVP they might buff our damage.
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90 Undead Priest
12065
They aren't in the habit of buffing middle of the pack DPS (especially when it is only situationally middle of the pack, and top of the herd in other areas)

If we were dead last on single target, then maybe. We aren't that unfortunate though, and the only people I see claiming they lag behind also appear to be either picking up gear not itemized for shadow, or not following the gemming recommendations on H2P.

I feel there is a correlation there.
Edited by Erebos on 4/5/2013 11:13 AM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
17860
We're functional enough on this tier that we're going to remain untouched. Settle in til 5.4 rolls around.
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90 Troll Priest
3095
04/04/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Erebos
- Shadowy Apparitions are still a factor often overlooked, especially since they have been fixed.


Yours are fixed? Why do mine still not work? Getting sick of these clone tea parties making it so new ones can't spawn until the lost ones despawn.... Stupid mechanic is stupid and our tier is tied to it :(
Edited by Trëize on 4/5/2013 4:32 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
12075
Shadow Apps are working great in Raids.

Outside of that they don't matter.
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90 Undead Priest
12065
Shadow Apps are working great in Raids.

Outside of that they don't matter.


^this

The only time I have issues, is when I have one trigger on an add that immediately dies.

That makes up a very small percentage of my SA procs.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
04/05/2013 05:26 AMPosted by Slant
worst part is that shadow is in a position where the only way to buff their single target without any drastic change is buff mind blast and DP. if they buffed those pvpers would Q.Q.. If they tried to buff anything else than it would effect their multi-Doting.

I don't PvP, but does shadow Mind Flay much in PvP? Couldn't they buff Mind Flay (and nerf Insanity to compensate so that talent isn't suddenly OP).


If they buffed mind flay, it would make Insanity even more desirable than it already is and from my understanding they wanted talents to be a preference/situational use as oppose to being mandatory. Maybe the Spriest pvp nerfs may allow them to buff there single target.

On an unrelated note, since i quit Spriest i was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me. The tier set bonus(4) lets VT proc SA but if only 4 can be out at a time, wouldn't you have an endless supply anyways because of how often SWP procs and can crit? Correct me if im wrong i feel like 2pc is great but 4pc is useless or maybe there is a hidden effect i am missing.
Edited by Fayte on 4/5/2013 7:20 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
12075
Outside of Unerring procs and intense multi-DoTing your queue is rarely very long.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Outside of Unerring procs and intense multi-DoTing your queue is rarely very long.


oh i see thanks
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