OOM Podcast Episode 9; CALLING ALL SHAMANS!

I don't know what this fight is about but I'm just explaining her PoV because I feel like people are missing the point of what she's saying.


The point is people want to hear/be a part of conversation, not "stand here do that". I do *not* mean that in an insulting way, but if you really can't see the difference between listening to/partaking in a conversation between peers vs one between a teacher and a student, I really don't know what else can be said.
Edited by Morenn on 4/2/2013 9:10 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17815
I mean if we're talking about boss strategy, there's not a lot of conversation to be had. It's pretty clean-cut.

I should probably read this thread before I keep talking, but Fleurs has a point in saying that highly progressed players can easily help people with all difficulties if they so wish. I personally see very little conversation when it comes to say, boss strategy.

When it comes to healing strategy, sure. But boss strategy is straight forward.
Edited by Mist on 4/2/2013 9:11 PM PDT
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I mean if we're talking about boss strategy, there's not a lot of conversation to be had. It's pretty clean-cut.

I should probably read this thread before I keep talking, but Fleurs has a point in saying that highly progressed players can easily help people with all difficulties if they so wish. I personally see very little conversation when it comes to say, boss strategy.

When it comes to healing strategy, sure. But boss strategy is pretty clean cut.


Yeah, you should probably read before you speak because what you are saying is not even *remotely* similar to what she said. No one -ever- mentioned anything about boss strategies.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17815
I mean technically it applies to healing strategy as well because healing strategy across the board is very similar.

I, as a heroic raider can easily have a discussion with an LFR monk and point out things that can be done to heal properly. I do not see what disqualifies me from it specifically because LFR is not my end-game.

I'unno. This is all stupid. This whole argument is stupid.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
The problem I think many see here is that those people clearing heroic raids at a competitive rate already have the experience of what it's like to be "working on normal" or "just getting their feet wet in LFRs". There's really no interest to listen to some random person-guest come give their PoV on something only one demographic can relate to.


Oftentimes, players who raid competitively become out of touch with the trials and tribulations of normal mode and LFR raids/raiders. They lose the unique perspective brought by working almost exclusively at a lower level of gameplay.

It's not just about strats, but mentality and individual gameplay.

You have to realize, too, that the largest demographic in WoW—and almost certainly the largest demographic listening to OOM—is the casual player. As someone who raids more progressively, you may not find the stories or advice of an LFR raider or NM raider particularly compelling or informative, but you're the minority.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
04/02/2013 09:44 PMPosted by Elethia
You have to realize, too, that the largest demographic in WoW—and almost certainly the largest demographic listening to OOM—is the casual player.

This is very true, I think this may be the heart of everything in the end.

But this was all in response to Vero's reply to Tiberria, saying that all skill levels of shaman should partake in this discussion, whilst from what I understand.. This topic is about the current state of shamans. Of which, what Tiberria said is kind of a big deal...

And basically I'm just trying to say, even though it was a generalized statement, that this sort of topic a heroic raider can answer all questions to. There's really no benefit to having anything less than that unless it's for personal reasons. Because a heroic raider does know all about the trial and error periods of gameplay and learning your class.

We deal with the same woes, minus learning what spells do what-- I'd like to think we already know those, for the most part :P
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Fleurs, irc quick please... or add me to bnet. Joanna#1419
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
I dunno about dealing with the same woes. There's a reason some guilds can push progression and others can't, and it's not just about the hours put in. Many normal mode raids, and all LFR raids, deal with more internal issues (ie: player issues).

You also see players filling abnormal roles in NM/LFR settings—roles that they don't fill in progressive raids because it's not ideal.

I'm also going to reiterate that many, if not most, heroic raiders have forgotten what it's like to be an "LFR hero" or normal mode raider. And while I think everyone should strive to play as well as possible, and encourage their fellow players to play as well as possible, there are limitations to what you'll see change in the average LFR scenario or casual raid.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
What Fleur's is saying is that those of us who are in heroics can explain every aspect of raiding from heroic to LFR quite easily if we sit down and say things other than "just dps harder" or "just heal harder."

Just because LFR is not my end game does not mean I cannot give you a detailed in depth strat of how to do something on LFR

Er...sort of.

("you" here applies generally to competitive HM raiders as a group, not to anyone in particular, and obviously there are many exceptions on every point.)

You'll be able to explain the correct way of doing things, obviously. But unless you're unusually insightful and able to step out of your own personal experience, you won't know (or be motivated to come up with) workarounds for when the raid isn't capable of executing the correct strat. These workarounds are what's usually needed, because non-HM raiders typically have little control over their raid group's composition and performance.

You tend to assume that if people just understood a mechanic, they'd be able to execute it correctly. You ascribe poor performance to ignorance, stupidity, or laziness. You find it hard to understand how a bright, motivated person could struggle with a game mechanic even after it's explained to them, and that affects both your tone and the helpfulness of your suggestions; you tend to just repeat the same explanation over and over instead of actually trying to come up with a different way of approaching the problem. Even though you might be great at thinking 'outside the box' to overcome intended game mechanics, you rarely apply that same sort of thinking to the human-generated issues that lower-caliber raiders often encounter.

You typically have poor judgment regarding how difficult something is, relatively speaking, for the person you're suggesting it to. When everything is 'easy', it's hard to see the subtle variations in relative difficulty. I have that problem myself when trying to give advice to LFR/5m healers.

You rarely actually understand the damage patterns that a normal-mode healer is dealing with. You're accustomed to approaching healing in an environment where damage is fairly predictable and where your other raiders' play is fairly consistent. You don't fully understand how the encounters are different when your raid is doing unpredictable things inconsistently; if you've experienced this at all recently, it's been in an alt or pug raid where you could just write everyone off as bad and leave. You don't understand why someone would want to find ways to deal with the damage and beat the encounter.

Your thoughts on game and class balance are predicated on the assumption that people are playing correctly. You believe that a class is balanced if it can defeat all of the encounters with a raid at the intended gear level executing all of the mechanics properly. You refuse to even entertain the possibility that there are class balance issues in normal modes, because you don't believe that 'Class X can deal with unnecessary damage and unpredictable raid behaviour more effectively than Class Y' is a balance issue.

That's all coming from a normal-mode/light heroic perspective. Like I said, I don't really know what it's like to have LFR as my endgame, so I wouldn't presume to speak for the people in that position.
Edited by Kaels on 4/2/2013 10:36 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
That's all coming from a normal-mode/light heroic perspective. Like I said, I don't really know what it's like to have LFR as my endgame, so I wouldn't presume to speak for the people in that position.


I sort of do, because that's essentially all I do on my alts. You go in predicting that everyone will mess up, no one will understand the fight, and you'll not only have to try to herd cats but bend over backwards when they spontaneously combust.
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90 Tauren Shaman
15790
If you are a Resto Shaman, and you want to try to get this chance to Co-host on either thursday or sunday at 7pm EST


It's about 10am my time, but I'd be happy to help out. How are we making contact? Skype?

Contact me on my battletag Convictfish#1889
Edited by Convictfish on 4/3/2013 12:57 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13170
Think this was all resolved in IRC, but I was trying to say is bring the player not the progression :P

I know that someone that has fully cleared heroic modes can explain how to heal in normals or LFR.
Edited by Veroicone on 4/2/2013 11:13 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12580
04/02/2013 10:19 PMPosted by Elethia
I'm also going to reiterate that many, if not most, heroic raiders have forgotten what it's like to be an "LFR hero" or normal mode raider.


I remember being the best-geared Holy Paladin on my server, pushing HM's, being part of our 10-man if we had to drop to that size to get something down. I remember sitting in that (comparitive) lofty perch...and what it did to me. How it changed my views on the game, the people playing it, and what it caused me to become.

Kaels and Elethia both said it better than I ever could have. If the demographic of the listeners for the podcast consists mostly of those outside of HM/Hardcore progression raiders, then those are the perspectives that matter, because those perspectives are the closest thing to what their own experiences might be like.

I'm not discounting the high-end perspective, but at the same time, I see people throw down the progression card quite often in the various threads, and if an *LFR/Normal endgame hero* can't understand what the healing is like in *Hard Mode endgame,* well...you realize that the opposite is also true, right?

Riôt
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
if an *LFR/Normal endgame hero* can't understand what the healing is like in *Hard Mode endgame,* well...you realize that the opposite is also true, right?

I disagree but we resolved this :P
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100 Goblin Shaman
8720
The problem I think many see here is that those people clearing heroic raids at a competitive rate already have the experience of what it's like to be "working on normal" or "just getting their feet wet in LFRs".

No, actually, you don't.

You have no idea what it's like to have LFR as your endgame. Your experience does not inform you about the interests and concerns of players for whom LFR is designed. (Neither does mine, but at least I recognize that.)

And you absolutely do not have the experience of "working on normals" in MoP. You have the experience of "getting normals out of the way." And maybe "farming normals" and "fooling around in normals on an alt." You have never worked on MoP normals in the same sense as someone who heals a group that took 30+ wipes to down Horridon.

If you ever had the experience of working on normals in a group for whom they were appropriately tuned, it wasn't in this expansion. For many if not most of you, it was all the way back in BC when "normal" was all there was and everything beyond Kara was effectively "heroic" anyway. Not only does your normal experience (what there is of it) have absolutely no bearing on the current state of the game, it's far enough in the past that you probably don't even remember it accurately anyway.


Sorry Fluers but I agree with Kael here.

Mainly: healing LFR is completely different than healing a normal and mainly healing heroic is a different ballgame than healing normal.

In LFR- for example- I can get away with the riptide glyph and chain heal, HTT/Ascendance spam.

In normal, it all depends on the fight at hand on how I'm healing/what glyphs/talents I'm using. Same goes with heroic (you have to figure in the mechanics between normal modes and heroic modes are different, as are the healing aspects).

There are a lot more raiders these days doing normals then there are folks doing heroic modes. There's guilds- like mine- that seem to be stuck in tier 14 still (and trust me, we've had long talks about this little fact recently).

Heroic mode raiders generally do normal once, then go off to heroic mode. Whereas you have guilds like mine that prefer staying at normal mode- I know more guilds like mine than I do heroic mode folks.

You also have to remember that healing changes depending on if you are doing 10's or 25's. If it stayed the same across the board healing experience wise, then I'd share your opinion.
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/3/2013 3:12 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


I'm not discounting the high-end perspective, but at the same time, I see people throw down the progression card quite often in the various threads, and if an *LFR/Normal endgame hero* can't understand what the healing is like in *Hard Mode endgame,* well...you realize that the opposite is also true, right?

Riôt


I disagree. HM raiders clear normal modes, generally clear LFR, if not on mains and on alts, and see everything that non-HM raiders see. The only real argument is that doing normal modes with a heroic guild doesn't really give you the perspective because you are generally playing with other healers and raiders of a higher skill level, which could influence your perspective.

I would counter argue that I think a lot of NM/LFR only raiders on these forums don't really see the perspective of class balance properly, because the fact that they are actively on these forums means they are probably at a higher skill level than most of the other players in their raid, which skews their perspective as much or more than HM raiders. As a result, they dismiss concerns with class design (the "well if I can top healing meters in LFR, all of you HM raiders that are complaining about this mechanic must just not know how to play your class" type arguments) or suggest strategies that may work for them, but aren't mechanically sound, and probably would not work for other players, especially playing with others that are close to or above their skill level.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
I would counter argue that I think a lot of NM/LFR only raiders on these forums don't really see the perspective of class balance properly, because the fact that they are actively on these forums means they are probably at a higher skill level than most of the other players in their raid, which skews their perspective as much or more than HM raiders. As a result, they dismiss concerns with class design (the "well if I can top healing meters in LFR, all of you HM raiders that are complaining about this mechanic must just not know how to play your class" type arguments) or suggest strategies that may work for them, but aren't mechanically sound, and probably would not work for other players, especially playing with others that are close to or above their skill level.

Nobody claimed that normal or LFR players see the whole picture either. We don't.

The point is precisely that no one subset of raiders can see the game from every angle; there are many different perspectives, and including several of them is valuable when you're speaking to a broad audience like OOM does.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Some times the most progressed are the least open minded. And sometimes the other is true.

Listening to everyone and making an informed decision for yourself is always the best route.

I listen to your guys and gals pod cast. Not so much for learning purposes but more to hear others pov's.

Keep up the good work.
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Some times the most progressed are the least open minded. And sometimes the other is true.

Listening to everyone and making an informed decision for yourself is always the best route.

I listen to your guys and gals pod cast. Not so much for learning purposes but more to hear others pov's.

Keep up the good work.


Thanks! That means a lot :)
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
So I read this thread in it's entirity because the OOM Podcasts are something I truly value.

This will be long block of text, but please bear with me.

I'm the new kid on the block. Look at me, my gear, my achievements. In the raider social circle, I'm a nobody. I've been playing for a matter of months. I'm both an LFR hero and a normal mode raider.

The OOM podcasts tailor to not only the casual healers, but the community itself. While they could include more about heroic progression, they first and foremost speak to the community of healers.

Not to heroic raiders. Not to normal raiders. Not to LFR heroes. Not even to people below level cap.

The false stratification of our community is a terrible thing. Is someone superior for being a heroic mode raider? No. Is someone less than you for being an LFR hero? No.

The assesment of the quality ofthe player should always rest on the individual. And I feel that OOM reaches out to the individual instead of a mass clump. Because they're healers, just like all of us. They see the stupid, the silly, and the strong. They are US.

It will be difficult to cater to each individual taste, and that's not an issue exclusive to OOM podcasts. It's something that every broadcasted content, well, ever, has had to deal with.

In my humblest opinion, perhaps there could be a bi-weekly heroic special ep, maybe only 30-45 minutes long, that addresses current healing issues for heroic progression. Or even 20 minutes at the end of a podcast.

But in general, if you want advice about heroic progression, you're going to want it from a direct source. Honestly, a podcast will not give you the tools you need. That's why as a community people here tend to send out battletags, and the OT is always welcoming to all of us.

From that we can ask people one on one about their experiences, from that-- heroic raiders will get the most benefit. Just like high level atheletes or academics, no one is going to the youtube short about what to do. No, people go to their peers, their mentors, and their friends.

I see OOM as a backbone towards building a stronger community. Right now, we all know people are leaving for whatever reason, from the game. The one thing we all could use right now, is a stronger cirlce of peers.

Together, we are strong. Together we can put ideas from all the backgrounds together. Together we can mentor the new healers and help them beocme productive members of the healing community, and of the WoW community.

Pointing fingers at lfr heros and heroic raiders won't fix anything. Nor will it teach anyone anything, from the most progressed to the least.

Thank you OOM for providing a tap into the community of healers. While you may be a minority, I greatly enjoy your podcasts.
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