Atonement Nerf, No buff to compensate? (PVE)

90 Troll Priest
17210
I believe this is moreso to offset our gear scaling. As we gain a ton more ilvls atonement is getting carried away and with 5.3 also comes item upgrades. If anything atonement healing will still be about the same as it is currently.


But.. they already gutted our scaling. That's what the Divine Aegis change did. Do we really need our scaling to get nerfed every major patch?
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90 Human Priest
9055
Atonement healing is overpowered, so this makes sense. And no, nerfing the damage instead does not make sense. We already do less damage than holy in order to offset the healing of atonement.

During heroics, you can just use atonement. That's not a good situation.

During raids, I use holy attacks primarily to build and then use evangelism, so this will make little difference.


The nerf Damage but increase healing was in response to a PVP post someone had. Please read the whole thread.
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90 Draenei Priest
18070
I took the liberty to look at your logs, Scotters.

For your latest Jinrokh - Dark Animus kills, Atonement made up 20% of your healing. Now nerf that by 20%. In the bigger picture, it only nerfs your overall heals by 4%. I noticed you run with a off healer monk.

While I do understand that his off set is obviously not going to be as strong as your or your paladin's heal set, so let's just use the Megaera, Ji Kun, and Durumu kills, where the healing was somewhat close between you and the monk.

Let's look at Megaera first:
You did 33.2M healing
The Monk did 29.2M healing
Let's assume Atonement made up 20% of your healing that fight (it didn't, it was only ~13%)
With the nerf, you now did 31.9M healing, still more than the Monk

Ji Kun:
You did 10M healing
The Monk did 8.7M healing
Now I'm going to give you the benefit here and use the actual number for your Atonement healing: 43% of your heals. With the nerf, you'll do 9% less healing overall on that fight.
You still would do 9.1M in healing

Durumu:
You did 19.4M in healing
The Monk did 16.2M in healing
Now let's also give you the benefit and use the actual number of your Atonement healing: 25% of your heals overall. With the nerf, you'll do 5% less healing.
You'd do 18.4M in healing

What's my point in comparing only these fights? Well, these were the only fights that the Monk even came close to matching your Disc numbers, so even with the nerf to Atonement, you would still easily beat him in numbers.

As GC said about the SWP nerf: SWP only does a percentage of your damage and nerfing that spell by another percentage only equates to about a 3-4% nerf overall.

If you think Disc will not be in a "good place" after this nerf, take a look at this:
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111
Disc is one of the top specs for healing right now. Even with the nerf, do you think theyd fall to Monk or Holy Priest level? Even so, Disc would be a viable spec to play. However, I think that they will realistically fall only slightly behind Holy Paladin to between Holy Paladin and Monks.
Edited by Jessaurus on 4/1/2013 5:07 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
17210
Jessaurus, you're ignoring the fact that Atonement triggers Divine Aegis. It's a bigger nerf than your numbers suggest.

Looking at one of my parses where I ranked on Durumu 10N:
24.9% Atonement
19.2% Divine Aegis
13.9% Cascade
11.9% Power Word: Shield
9.1% Atonement
4.1% Power Word: Solace
<More irrelevant spells>
2.4% Power Word: Solace

That's 40.5% of my Healing from Atonement. Assuming a minimum of 40.5% of my Divine Aegis was caused by Atonement, that's another 7.776%.

A minimum of 48.276% of my healing came from Atonement. Keep in mind, I ranked on this fight (#19), I wasn't just screwing around. A 20% nerf to 48.276% of my healing is HUGE.
Edited by Lothrik on 4/1/2013 5:13 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
4240
I don't want to worry about fighting players. I was enjoying my independence.

Damn you Activision! Stop crippling my fun!

Even when you destroy this portion of my gameplay as Disc. . . I will find another way to stop everyone else from defeating my teammate in BGs!
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100 Night Elf Priest
13405
This atonement nerf makes sense.. and is a good thing for good-gameplay. I mean you are seeing far too many people just sit in one spot and mash smite the entire fight, 'steal' heals (which would have come in from other sources-- ie. druid HoTs)

Disc played well is more than just smite smite smite solace, penance smite smite smite... its building Evangelism, using AA, and Spirit Shell timed around fight mechanics--- AND using Smite, and offensive/defensive Penance, Prayer of Mending, and prayer of healing.

80% isnt the end of the world either.


From what I've heard, we see "good-gameplay" far more at the heroic level this tier than in normal modes. I do think that this specific change won't be terrible (if it isn't an AFD joke, which is a distinct possibility), but I'm not enthused about the others.

I'd also like to point out that the Priests will be receiving a mere 30% of the healing if it hits them, which I don't like.
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90 Troll Priest
17210
I agree Elethia, I've always hated how Atonement heals you for less than it does other players. It's pretty obvious it was a nerf meant specifically for PvP, and yet it's persisted for years in PvE. I honestly don't even understand why it's still around, aren't Disc Priests doing poorly in PvP right now? Why keep a PvP-specific nerf in then?
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99 Human Priest
13560
I believe this is moreso to offset our gear scaling. As we gain a ton more ilvls atonement is getting carried away and with 5.3 also comes item upgrades. If anything atonement healing will still be about the same as it is currently.


Pretty much this. Pre-nerf, I was worth ~1.6 raiders. After I'll be worth ~1.37 raiders. Oh noes. 2 smite priest is still worth more than 1 DPS and 1 Healer. Scaling is still way high, likely to be back to ~1.6 raiders soon enough.

I wish they'd just address the biggest problems with the spec. The single most glaring problem with Atonement is that it's a really !@#$ty DPS spec. Not numerically; I mean it has huge design flaws. It's boring and easy: 3-button DPS is quite viable, and a /castsequence macro can get ~85% of optimal DPS. Haste hard-capping is extremely prevalent; the spec needs a 2.0sec+ filler instead of 1.5. It has precisely no cleave; on 3-4 targets, the single-target rotation exceeds Mind Sear damage (this would be okay if it were the only problem; it'd just be a quirk of the spec rather than an obvious flaw). It has a mandatory DPS glyph. It only has two secondary stats of any value; none of mastery, spirit and hit effect DPS at all. 4pc t14 is so good that it easily outclasses Throne of Thunder gear of the same "difficulty".

I think these are the changes the spec really needs:
  • Atonement healing should not scale with damage taken effects on the target. This would basically end the OP parses floating around on fights like Horridon, and - crucially - not break the spec on normal fights. Alternately, the scaling with damage modifiers could be capped at something like 30%.
  • As mentioned before, the DPS is very simple. Adding some complexity would add interest to the spec, and there's certainly a way this could be done without effecting the raw numbers it produces.
  • Glyph of Smite needs to be removed or nerfed, DPS specs should not have mandatory DPS glyphs.
  • The 4-piece t14 healer bonus also needs to be nerfed so that it's not better than a 4-set of t15 gear. I recommend dropping the CD reduction on offensive Penance to 2sec.
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85 Human Paladin
11310
04/01/2013 05:30 PMPosted by Espoire
Atonement healing should not scale with damage taken effects on the target.


This is what I was expecting to see in the notes, and still do at some point. A 20% nerf isn't going to make me cry.
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90 Troll Priest
17210
Espoire: The "OP parses" on Horridon and the like that you're talking about.. Atonement is already capped. If you smite for 1 billion damage, atonement will only heal for 30% of your maximum health (before healing modifiers). I think it's bugged though, and the 30% limit becomes 60% if you crit. Still, it is capped -- in a really odd way. If it wasn't capped the gap would be far more vast than it currently is.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that this Atonement change does precisely nothing for Horridon-style fights. Atonement will still be healing for exactly the same amount with any non-trivial damage modifier in play, you'll just hit that 30% cap slightly later. It is however, a significant nerf to Atonement on fights without damage modifiers, which I have a hard time believing is intentional.
Edited by Lothrik on 4/1/2013 5:49 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
9055
I took the liberty to look at your logs, Scotters.

For your latest Jinrokh - Dark Animus kills, Atonement made up 20% of your healing. Now nerf that by 20%. In the bigger picture, it only nerfs your overall heals by 4%. I noticed you run with a off healer monk.

While I do understand that his off set is obviously not going to be as strong as your or your paladin's heal set, so let's just use the Megaera, Ji Kun, and Durumu kills, where the healing was somewhat close between you and the monk.

Let's look at Megaera first:
You did 33.2M healing
The Monk did 29.2M healing
Let's assume Atonement made up 20% of your healing that fight (it didn't, it was only ~13%)
With the nerf, you now did 31.9M healing, still more than the Monk

Ji Kun:
You did 10M healing
The Monk did 8.7M healing
Now I'm going to give you the benefit here and use the actual number for your Atonement healing: 43% of your heals. With the nerf, you'll do 9% less healing overall on that fight.
You still would do 9.1M in healing

Durumu:
You did 19.4M in healing
The Monk did 16.2M in healing
Now let's also give you the benefit and use the actual number of your Atonement healing: 25% of your heals overall. With the nerf, you'll do 5% less healing.
You'd do 18.4M in healing

What's my point in comparing only these fights? Well, these were the only fights that the Monk even came close to matching your Disc numbers, so even with the nerf to Atonement, you would still easily beat him in numbers.

As GC said about the SWP nerf: SWP only does a percentage of your damage and nerfing that spell by another percentage only equates to about a 3-4% nerf overall.

If you think Disc will not be in a "good place" after this nerf, take a look at this:
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111
Disc is one of the top specs for healing right now. Even with the nerf, do you think theyd fall to Monk or Holy Priest level? Even so, Disc would be a viable spec to play. However, I think that they will realistically fall only slightly behind Holy Paladin to between Holy Paladin and Monks.


Thank you for all your hard work and research. You also have to consider that the less i heal, the more the other healers would heal. So in those cases his heals would most likely increase by at most 33%
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93 Goblin Shaman
8440
Buff already OP Shaman healing, Nerf already GIMP disc healing.

Blizz, wtf are you doing? lol


You have got to be trolling.

In PvP, okay, you have a leg to stand on; if PvE- completely different story this tier for shaman.
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90 Troll Priest
17210
Buff already OP Shaman healing, Nerf already GIMP disc healing.

Blizz, wtf are you doing? lol


You have got to be trolling.

In PvP, okay, you have a leg to stand on; if PvE- completely different story this tier for shaman.


Should be pretty obvious that a guy from Tichondrius in full PvP gear is talking about PvP when he mentions how strong Resto Shamans are.

I think these are the changes the spec really needs:
  • Atonement healing should not scale with damage taken effects on the target. This would basically end the OP parses floating around on fights like Horridon, and - crucially - not break the spec on normal fights. Alternately, the scaling with damage modifiers could be capped at something like 30%.
  • As mentioned before, the DPS is very simple. Adding some complexity would add interest to the spec, and there's certainly a way this could be done without effecting the raw numbers it produces.
  • Glyph of Smite needs to be removed or nerfed, DPS specs should not have mandatory DPS glyphs.
  • The 4-piece t14 healer bonus also needs to be nerfed so that it's not better than a 4-set of t15 gear. I recommend dropping the CD reduction on offensive Penance to 2sec.


Glyph of Smite was originally intended to make the rotation interesting, Holy Fire was actually a net loss without it. It really should just be baseline though, it's such a simple mechanic. Far simpler than stuff like Pain Suppression usable while stunned, which used to be a glyph but isn't anymore.

I agree with the T14 4-piece thing, nerfing it from 4sec to 3sec wasn't enough, it's still too powerful and makes upgrading to 522+ stuff feel like a downgrade, which is bad design. Either that or buff the T15 set bonuses for Disc so we actually want them (I mean come on, Prayer of Mending?)..

Also agree on the filler thing, Smite at 1.5sec cast is really obnoxious. Make it 2sec and make it hit harder please. Even if it's a net nerf, it's a quality of life improvement for Atonement.
Edited by Lothrik on 4/1/2013 6:14 PM PDT
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97 Blood Elf Priest
17535
If we can get blizz to scrap the grace mechanic then our single target heals would be more appealing to use.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12965
As I recall, nearly every disc priest was paranoid about the changes to SS for 5.2. Seems like we are doing just fine. As someone pointed out earlier, Disc scales very well with gear, although towards the end of Cata, Holy started to shine due to raw output.

Keep calm and keep healing.
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96 Human Priest
16945
Here's to wishing they nerfed the evangelism mana reduction instead. Either way, the ratio of our spells from both a theoretical perspective and a practical raid perspective is off. The outlier is too many atonements.

I'd like to cast heal, gheal, fheal again...someday
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12875
Atonement is about ~15% of my healing over a whole raid, so 20% of that is about a 3% overall nerf to my healing. It's not huge, I just don't think it's necessary when ignoring the fact that yes, it is possible to smite spam your way through LFR, much like it's possible to top the LFR meters in wonky specs.

Disc seems in a good place to me right now, it's hardly OP.
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90 Human Priest
8935
You could always just go holy :)
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90 Human Priest
5910
This nerf makes me sad.

But I'd prefer this to a 20% damage nerf to smite/penance.

Be cool if they buffed evangelism as compensation for this nerf, make it increase healing by 35%-40% instead of 25% or something. More burst healing for atonement would be cool.
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Having some kind of healing cd other than PS:Barrier would be cool. SS is barely a cd when its on going damage
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