Atonement Nerf, No buff to compensate? (PVE)

I am saddened to see Atonement's nerf. I still use my entire toolkit, but Atonement is something that has done great amount of help. I don't enjoy using my heal spell when Smite is right there, when I kill two birds with one stone.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15835
This really sucks for priests who used primarily atonement this patch... it's between 30-50% of my healing on most fights and higher than 50% on damage modifier fights.
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Seems we'll only be doing atonement for the 25%boost now. It's a shame that they want to destroy the dpshealer =/ I was having so much fun.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Even with this nerf, I don't think the rest of our toolkit will be better for random damage. We're still going to be using Atonement, and don't forget that it WAS buffed with the buff to Penance.
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100 Human Priest
17450
What's interesting is on my spreadsheet, the numerical change makes it such that from a healing perspective, heal spam is edging out smite spam, even after accounting for grace/evangelism.

From a mana standpoint, heal spam is still twice as mana efficient as smite spam.

Doing heal spam with PW:S not getting a rapture proc is more healing per mana than using an atonement rotation. At my haste level, every other pw:s (assuming all heals go on the same target) will be a rapture proc.

Using the two hard hitting atonement spells (hf/penance) but still doing heavy strength of soul is the biggest single target hps rotation.

The biggest total numbers you can push when accounting for both HPS and DPS is still obviously from atonement spam.

I think I'm going to look at scaling from gear this tier under the assumption that you want enough spirit to reach "mana neutral" breakpoints. Like say for example, you can push 47613 hps with atonement, 48311 hps with heal and strength of soul play, 62051 with fdcl and strength of soul, 66902 with divine insight and strength of soul play. But those rotation consume mana at different intervals. What if you raise and lower spirit and allocate that spirit into other stats based on a fixed time until oom? I'm not going to test this yet, but if I were a betting man, I'd say the heal strength of soul play will scale the best with more secondary stats simply because you need really low spirit with that rotation.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/02/2013 01:56 AMPosted by Twistedmind
From a mana standpoint, heal spam is still twice as mana efficient as smite spam.


I have trouble believing this even matters at the level of gear we have right now.

What's more, even if Heal is "more efficient" than smite spam, smite spam also contributes damage to the encounter, whereas heal spam just contributes overhealing.
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100 Human Priest
17450
Wai r u awake brah? Get some sleep!

But no in all seriousness, I know that's the first reaction that comes up every time we think of that heal button that most took off our bars.

But the way I think of heal is yes, it's pitiful compared to other spells, but just because we have gear doesn't mean it didn't scale too. If heal is 1.024*sp and nerfed smite is 0.6848*sp, then that heal spell is actually going to go up in power faster than smite is (just talking about filler spells here). Also, from a super scaling standpoint, that smite is a 1.5 sec cast so it's going to haste cap at 50% whereas heal will keep scaling better.

One more interesting thing about heal vs. smite is that heal is at base 2280 spent mana per second and smite is 5400 spent mana per second. Which means that the spirit required to make heal mana neutral will be half of what's required to make smite mana neutral (before evangelism is considered). This also means that you will have more mana gained if you cast a heal instead of a smite. As long as you aren't mana capped (like at the start of the fight), then the extra mana gains can add up to be other spells later in the fight. Like say for napkin math's sake, casting heal during this light damage portion of the fight is good because every 5 heals I cast now instead of say 8 smites means I can cast 2 more shields later in the fight. That might not sound like a big deal, but dropping a hard boss is all about the min/maxing for numbers. If you can go ape at the end of a fight with really expensive heals, that stability may allow for say your resto druid partner to go use his second Heart of the Wild, which will ultimately net more damage and healing from the both of you, and will be better for dropping the boss. And as we know, things are more hectic at the end of the fight, so having a mana reserve for that is often the different between a 1% wipe and a kill.

The drawbacks though are the slow cast time which creates unevenness. And maybe the smart healing from smite will be better at picking a target than you are manually with heal because the tank isn't the only one in a raid who takes damage. But pw:s on a tanks is the most effective button we have for tank healing, and heal can make us press it on them more thanks to strength of soul. It kind of comes down to one of those read into the situation type of things. And at the end of the day, this kind of thought process isn't really relevant because the min/maxing of numbers for most encounters are really generous unless you're pushing world firsts.

I guess what I'm saying is before this atonement change, I too had very little reason to cast anything but smite. But this nerf has me revisiting the healing per second and healing per mana spreadsheets because I haven't forgotten about that long lost heal button.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/2/2013 3:00 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I honestly don't see anyone substituting Smite with Heal, even after these changes.

The main times you'll be using Smite is either as a filler when there's little damage going out or to build stacks of Evangelism. Heal, with its 2.5s cast time, high overhealing and exceedingly low HPS, simply does not have the necessary qualities to be a good tool for those situations.

Also, if you're finding mana that tight that the lower mana consumption of Heal becomes a factor, you're probably much better off not casting either Smite or Heal.
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90 Undead Priest
3455
I'd be fine with their nerfing the damage and increasing the healing to compensate or something like that. Or they could make it so we get a reduced effect on damage amp stuff such as horridon's cracked shell. Something like aton heals only benefit from 50 percent of amped damage, so every instance would add 25 percent rather than 50.

But here is the thing; currently atonment is our main source of healing. But at the same time it is much more than that. If you look at logs its doing 20-30 percent of our healing. So a 20 percent nerf would probably reduce our overall healing by only 4 percent or so. But another problem occurs here, due to the changes of 5.2 crit has become our main stat, while mastery follows right behind as they go hand in hand. So while you see aton healing doing 20-30 percent, it is also the majority of our aegis heals, which I'm assuming is around 90 percent of it. Looking back at the logs, aegis is our second biggest source of healing, and it sits at around 15-20 percent. This means the nerf is balls huge.

So from what I see, this nerf will make holy and disc fairly even on the logs, but it will probably remain a tiny bit stronger. I still feel like even with this nerf this style of healing will remain fairly competitive, but at the same time I don't think the nerf will remain this huge.

In other news, does blizzard favor paladins are something? I've quit on and off since I've started playing WoW, and I think everytime I've came back they were the healing gods. They are smashing the logs. There has to be some form of gimmicky damage buff for disc to smash like they do, and yet they haven't been touched yet so I'm going to assume blizzard favors them or some form of nerf is coming. But at the end of the day we can all be happy we aren't mistweaver monks.
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90 Undead Priest
15800
Look at it this way, a lot of times when they buff too hard, they end up hotfixing a buff that is usually over compensating. We can only hope :>


Ring ring!

Yes sir, it's Shadow Word: Pain.

e: fixed for clarity.
Edited by Theyas on 4/2/2013 3:44 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
18385
This atonement nerf makes sense.. and is a good thing for good-gameplay. I mean you are seeing far too many people just sit in one spot and mash smite the entire fight, 'steal' heals (which would have come in from other sources-- ie. druid HoTs)

Disc played well is more than just smite smite smite solace, penance smite smite smite... its building Evangelism, using AA, and Spirit Shell timed around fight mechanics--- AND using Smite, and offensive/defensive Penance, Prayer of Mending, and prayer of healing.

80% isnt the end of the world either.


Funny, I wrote a post just like this recently. It irritated other forum readers no end. I can fully understand now just why it irritated them, because I'm not blinded by my own "best intentions". I promise I will absolutely remember to endeavour to never underestimate/patronise members of this forum community in a similar fashion again.

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FWIW (in my perhaps hastily considered opinion) this nerf may come with a pvp caveat or may not come into play at all. However it does present considerations for real, non-(lol)-LFR, playstyle if it is both real and applicable to pve. I fully appreciate penance double dips in it's present form, however a lot of us utilising atonement to its fullest will be doing so to minimise net raid overheal and reconvert that would be waste to additional eDPS. Thus our dps/heals outcomes matter. Switching from offensive to pure heal penance will naturally impact our dps outcomes (given a 20% loss to penance healing is a considerable loss on a primary nuke). 100% dmg + 100% healing - > 100% dmg + 80% healing vs 100% healing. There are more numbers to consider here than just the eHPS change and a reduced healing outcome on one of our strongest heals clearly forces dynamic choices. Is the 80% variant sufficient at this moment? Do I need to go pure heals again and forego the dmg component?
I'm not sure I care about the impact of a change on smite. It's simply a filler. But I think it will impact my penance usage if it goes ahead.
Edited by Aerry on 4/2/2013 7:16 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13290
Please let me know which castable heal is better than offensive penance.
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90 Night Elf Priest
3885
What are you complaining about? The functionality of Atonement is that you will smite and penance and holy fire to deal damage so you get GET YOUR WINGS TO BOOST YOUR HEALING. The Disc Priest functionality is not intended to heal through damage. To be quite honest.. I do believe with Ghostcrawler that the Atonement healing as a bit OP anyways.
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90 Human Priest
13720
That's 40.5% of my Healing from Atonement. Assuming a minimum of 40.5% of my Divine Aegis was caused by Atonement, that's another 7.776%.


I'm not sure that's how you math. You'd be replacing a pretty decent amount of that atonement healing with other healing at the same crit %...

also @twistedmind: in your comparison I noticed you listed smite vs. heal before evangelism stacks. Have you also considered how simple it is to keep up a 5 stack of evangelism purely through solace/penance and the mana saved at that point as well? I know the heal will be less if this change goes through but smite is also going to be more than 0 damage as well. any damage is useful in addition to the heal it will do (especially at the reduced mana cost with 5x Evangelism)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8350
I really like attonment healing. I know low level dungeons arent' supposed to be hard, but I like being able to do more dps than some dps while heailng. Still, I can see how op this can be. It's good that they can simultaneously dps and heal, but it shouldn't be such a strong heal that it's better than pure healing spells.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
What I don't like about this heal is Atonement is our "thing". We don't have good sustained throughput thanks to the PoH and crit changes; our strength is offensive healing. After this nerf our strength will be, uh, nothing. I'm sure Disc will still be a solid spec but it's just really bizarre to see a nerf incoming at this stage when Disc is no longer an extremely overpowered healing spec.

EDIT:

And if the intent is to increase the desirability of Holy priest it's the worst way to go about doing so.
Edited by Mahourai on 4/2/2013 9:10 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
And if the intent is to increase the desirability of Holy priest it's the worst way to go about doing so.


Yep, I was talking to some of my guildies last night, and their take on the subject was that Holy might bring a lot more healing, but we don't need a lot more healing in heroic encounters outside of, like, Tortos. In every other situation, the EH + CDs that Disc brings is just...better.

(I believe their exact words were, "Why bring a Holy Priest when you can bring a Druid instead?")
Edited by Tiriel on 4/2/2013 9:16 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
From twitter:

Is atonement really that OP?

Ghostcrawler posted:

Yes. It should trade off healing for some DPS. Didn't feel like it was much of a healing loss.


It must have slipped my mind that the intent of Atonement, the central Discipline mechanic of the last three tiers, is intended to make Disc a subpar healer while performing it.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
From twitter:

Is atonement really that OP?

Ghostcrawler posted:

Yes. It should trade off healing for some DPS. Didn't feel like it was much of a healing loss.


It must have slipped my mind that the intent of Atonement, the central Discipline mechanic of the last three tiers, is intended to make Disc a subpar healer while performing it.


He started saying this about Mistweaver Fistweaving, so I don't think it's a huge surprise that he did this. On the other hand, I mean, I would cast other spells if they were worth casting. They're not. This nerf isn't going to really change that.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Yep, I was talking to some of my guildies last night, and their take on the subject was that Holy might bring a lot more healing, but we don't need a lot more healing in heroic encounters outside of, like, Tortos. In every other situation, the EH + CDs that Disc brings is just...better.

(I believe their exact words were, "Why bring a Holy Priest when you can bring a Druid instead?")


That's because Holy Priest and Monks are probably the highest output healers right now. Unfortunate, Resto Druids come no where close to the amount of sustained and burst healing a Holy Priest can bring.

There's no real advantage to having 2 Discs in the raid for most fights this tier (or even 1 Disc for the latter half of ToT, barring Dark Animus), and your other Priest will be much better off as Holy.

Still, the Atonement nerf isn't entirely unjustified as it does too much healing and damage for very little effort. Compensation in the form of modifying the T15 bonuses to benefit Disc more or by reverting IF to its older state of double healing + guaranteed DA would be nice though.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/2/2013 9:41 AM PDT
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