Nether Tempest is fine

90 Gnome Mage
9415
"Shadow and warlocks were too strong in multidot". Nether Tempest says hello. With the difference mages are also OP on ST.

Keeping an eye on NT. We want mages to have some dot capability, not be a dot class.
(Source)

This is bull. I watch melee, huntards and especially Shamans do ridiculous damage on any multitarget fight but I'm not hearing any QQ about that. Nerf it and Arcane will be useless with frost and fire being behind almost every dps spec in the game on fights with adds.
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90 Worgen Mage
20360
Whoever wrote that tweet was biased, and he lost all credibility when he said we were OP on single-target. Though I do appreciate him bringing it to his attention.

Edit: I went back and looked through his tweets and it seems he's unhappy about the SW:P Nerf for SPriests and that Spriests were supposed to be "the" multidot class

I do agree in the sense that we shouldn't be multidotters. The damage should have been shifted to our nukes.
Edited by Digerati on 3/31/2013 7:42 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
I do agree in the sense that we shouldn't be multidotters. The damage should have been shifted to our nukes.


I think it probably should have been a straight percentage increase applied approximately equally to all spells. Just keep the percentage of damage coming from each source stable and do an across-the-board adjustment. E.g., if they were shooting for a 4% increase, buff every spell by 4%. A huge buff to just the bombs produces some weird interactions.

Wouldn't help much with AOE, but there's plenty of room to provide AOE-specific buffs in the form of increases to the secondary damage on the bombs, to Flamestrike and Blizzard, etc.
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Edited by Lhivera on 3/31/2013 8:50 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
03/31/2013 08:48 PMPosted by Lhivera
I do agree in the sense that we shouldn't be multidotters. The damage should have been shifted to our nukes.


I think it probably should have been a straight percentage increase applied approximately equally to all spells. Just keep the percentage of damage coming from each source stable and do an across-the-board adjustment. E.g., if they were shooting for a 4% increase, buff every spell by 4%. A huge buff to just the bombs produces some weird interactions.

Wouldn't help much with AOE, but there's plenty of room to provide AOE-specific buffs in the form of increases to the secondary damage on the bombs, to Flamestrike and Blizzard, etc.
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Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
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and now do that with the following:

-not affecting PvP
-keeping all 3 specs doing the same overall damage across all situations

That's why they changed the bombs and not the nukes.

It's also why the only change we're likely to see is NT being nerfed 10%
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
and now do that with the following:

-not affecting PvP


Eh, who cares.

More seriously, apply a PvP coefficient to the spells that could be problematic. They had to do this anyway with the bomb spells. Granted, they prefer to do this to as few spells as possible, but I think they need to apply this solution more liberally to avoid screwing with rotations the way the bomb buff did.

-keeping all 3 specs doing the same overall damage across all situations


A flat percentage buff to all spells would not change the relative performance of the specs.

It's also why the only change we're likely to see is NT being nerfed 10%


That seems unlikely, since it'd throw the talents out of whack on single-target encounters, something they've been very careful to keep balanced. More plausible might be a reduction in its secondary damage, or the addition of a target cap. Neither is particularly ideal, though.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 4/1/2013 5:15 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
A flat percentage buff to all spells would not change the relative performance of the specs.

It's also why the only change we're likely to see is NT being nerfed 10%

That seems unlikely, since it'd throw the talents out of whack on single-target encounters, something they've been very careful to keep balanced. More plausible might be a reduction in its secondary damage, or the addition of a target cap. Neither is particularly ideal, though.


I don't follow your logic.

You say changing the bomb buff would throw the talents out of whack.

But they already did that, and they already buffed the bombs.

All I'm saying is that what they will do with the NT buff is likely going to resemble what they did with the CM nerf. They felt CM was nerfed too much, so they increased it a little. Now, if they see NT was buffed too high, they will simply bring it down a notch.

You seem to be suggesting that they remove completely the bomb buff and instead do a static buff to ALL spells.

Frankly, I think my envisioned scenario is more likely.
Edited by Rentrenus on 4/1/2013 7:26 AM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
What they've thrown off is the niche strengths the bombs have. Their single-target strength hasn't really changed, and preserving their single-target balance has been a primary goal for the bombs from day one. That's why I find your scenario unlikely.

That's not to say I find my scenario likely. I'm explaining what I think they should do, not what I think they will do. Unfortunately, I find it unlikely they'll do that, either. What I consider most likely, but not very advisable, is simply messing with the secondary target damage values.
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90 Worgen Mage
20360
I'm wondering if they're afraid to buff Blizzard/Flamestrike back into viability because of Arcane's Mastery which is a flat % damage increase. What's it like for Mind Sear? How do the DPS of those spells compare? Is it in an equally poor situation? Look at the Heroic Tortos logs and you'll see Locks and Hunters doing ridiculous AOE, so I don't think we have to worry about Blizzard/Flamestrike being overpowered. It'd need an insanely huge buff to be trumping them.

And yeah, buffing all spells by a flat % would have worked too. Buffing just the nukes would make me wish Pyromaniac was removed even more, lol. They wanted a rather passive change though for a hotfix.
Edited by Digerati on 4/1/2013 10:20 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Mage
20360
Fire-related:

In retrospect, it seems like that 10% Pyro nerf wasn't needed if they were going to have to buff the bombs. Nerfing the nuke instead of CM seemed like the right approach to not punish Mages of all gear levels, but it dropped us to last on DPS.

IMO, I think the bar was set too high for tuning this tier. The devs were considering too much how Mages will be at 530+ ilvl, and that's a very, very small percentage of the population. Most of us won't even reach that point if 5.3 is just 6 weeks off and T16 just 2-3 more months after that. The fights in ToT are brutally hard, and guilds around the 12/16 heroic level last tier might not even kill half the bosses this tier and their item level might be closer to the 526 range, without factoring in item level upgrades, which I'll get into below.

They should have just went live without nerfing CM or Pyro, in retrospect. Pyros a really strong tuning knob because of how it affects Combustion too. If they had focused more on the 520-525 ilvl range, I think they wouldn't have been bothered as much by Fire's scaling and not seen the need to nerf it this tier.

Here's the problem though. Item level upgrading is coming, and we'll get an extra 8 ilvls on our gear. So we will break 530 in that sense, but it'll be at the halfway point to 5.4, which will be just 10-12 resets off at that point. Class balance changes are coming in 5.3.

They should have waited till 5.3 to address any scaling concerns. Either they thought heroic raiders would be more geared by this point, or they were trying to take ilvl upgrading into account a patch early. I don't like the upgrading system to begin with, but that's a discussion for another thread and board.

Just my two cents. I think the core of the issue is that they felt we needed a nerf before 5.2 because of scaling at high item levels, but none of us are reaching those levels due to the accelerated content release schedule and a very difficult raid tier.
Edited by Digerati on 4/1/2013 10:29 AM PDT
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90 Troll Mage
11580
That seems unlikely, since it'd throw the talents out of whack on single-target encounters, something they've been very careful to keep balanced. More plausible might be a reduction in its secondary damage, or the addition of a target cap. Neither is particularly ideal, though.


i completely disagree with this comment it has allways been blizzard motive to nerf the talent point of a mage who use it within the masses and as of right now i do not see a point in using frost bomb or living bomb on fights that have more then 3 targets and guess what havent seen any of those in tot.. seriously we had cleave stolen from us becuz oh noes fire mages use it 2 much well now every class will use vortex on fights such as council,tortos,horridon the cycle continues they will see all mages using tempest and thus we will have it either removed nerfed beyond belief or completely remodeled,
Edited by Crusix on 4/1/2013 10:51 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Mage
9415
"Wouldn't help much with AOE, but there's plenty of room to provide AOE-specific buffs in the form of increases to the secondary damage on the bombs, to Flamestrike and Blizzard, etc."

Exactly, our other AOE just doesnt cut it, almost useless in fact.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Honestly, I kind of wish every spec had a passive "(clever name here)" talent that simply had the effect: "Increases all damage dealt by abilities whose damage is not based on a percentage of the damage of other abilities by X%". They could then just tune the value of X as required without affecting rotation or playstyle.
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90 Worgen Mage
20360
Honestly, I kind of wish every spec had a passive "(clever name here)" talent that simply had the effect: "Increases all damage dealt by abilities whose damage is not based on a percentage of the damage of other abilities by X%". They could then just tune the value of X as required without affecting rotation or playstyle.


That's what I figured they were going to do with the 'hotfix passive' that had been datamined for every spec in MoP.
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