Monk DPS

It's been quite the curve switching from my mindset pre-5.2

I think we can all agree that one item, off the final boss in a tier, is aggravating to deal with. My raid spot is in jeopardy. Partly because of my own curve coming back from a break, partly because even when I do things right, I come up short of expectations.

Why take me instead of a rogue? Well... I have Zen med? My chi wave is substan..... er... I'm sexy right?

Joking aside, I don't mind the way the class is designed as much as I hate our dps being balanced around a trinket. Intentionally or not.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
10260


I raid in both, but due to comp issues my time spent as DPS this tier has been limited, and a good deal of it hasn't been logged. Though you're welcome to look up the countless fights that were logged last tier. I'm fairly confident that I've played my DPS spec despite being a mainspec tank more than you.


What about this log...
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zyhlegcnfi63gp4n/sum/damageDone/?s=3059&e=3663

Its pretty pitiful, in fact when looking at it. You didn't RSK enough, not enough FoF, and definitely not enough Chi Wave. Your dps is below even my guilds tanks on horridon. You did get more dps then our Disc priest should make you happy.


lol, you have one log when the patch first dropped with the wrong reforging where I was trying to figure out how to use SEF. Why don't you go back to the previous tier where I have way more than one log as DPS and compare our performance.

Also you're an idiot because chi wave was broken and wasn't bouncing properly when that log occured.

March 14

Classes
Monk
Chi Wave should now correctly bounce between targets that are in range.
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90 Human Monk
16560
lets all keep flaming each other.


I"M GONNA MAKE SOMEONE TAKE LOGS SO I CAN MAKE FUN OF UR ALLS DPS
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100 Blood Elf Monk
10260


lol, you have one log when the patch first dropped with the wrong reforging where I was trying to figure out how to use SEF. Why don't you go back to the previous tier where I have way more than one log as DPS and compare our performance.

Also you're an idiot because chi wave was broken and wasn't bouncing properly when that log occured.




Sure... but when you only use chi wave 2-3 times an entire fight... you are still using it too little. You still only averaged one FoF per 1.3 minutes which is lower than even in 5.1 ideal FoF usage, in 5.2 it should be 2 per minute ideally. Keep making excuses its ok we all believe you when you say you are godly and know everything about every class.

Funny you say to compare the logs from t14 since they all seem to be expired for the raids you were in, but I did catch some interesting finds like you best DPS on Elegon 10m normal in 5.1 was 91k... My best in same tier same patch was 133k. I am sure you will say that its something blah blah blah for why so bad so lets go with Will of the emporer both in febuary (5.1) less than a week apart and compare numbers shall we. You did 73k dps mind you this is after your guild was already doing heroics so I assume you were close to 500 ilvl at the time. Now me I did 81k and my guild never did heroics for t14, and I was at most 492 ilvl before 5.2 hit. Whats the excuse now?


Yes, what a shame that you were never doing meaningful content that tier to compare damage on. How adorable that you and your guild's general incompetence is limiting your exposure to meaningful comparison on real content.

Also I switched from my paladin to my monk halfway through the tier so whatever assumptions you've made about what gear I had were probably wrong. But hey why don't you go look at our respective rankings for protectors 10m normal hardmode. You know, the one where your ranking is a full month after mine, and explain why you got so thoroughly demolished by comparison.

Edit: Forgot to mention that when chi wave is only making a one-way trip, to the mob, it becomes pretty stupid to use it during a fight.
And incase you forgot my WW set is my offspec, which means that brewmaster gets deferential reforging, which meant that in the interest of having two functional sets for both specs, my WW set frequently ate way more haste than would have been ideal, which is why I don't FoF much in most of those logs. Not because I don't want to, but because I'd be energy capping in all but a few circumstances.

Edit2: I would also love to hear why your dps was bottom of the barrel on both of your most recent progression kills if WW are fine and you're so amazing. Guess it's difficult to do mechanics -and- be as awesome as you are? idk that there's even an excuse on lootmordius.
Edited by Pinuppanda on 4/3/2013 10:19 AM PDT
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100 Human Monk
21070
Good excuses Pinup, not.

Stick to BM and just !@#$.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11530
Edit2: I would also love to hear why your dps was bottom of the barrel on both of your most recent progression kills if WW are fine and you're so amazing. Guess it's difficult to do mechanics -and- be as awesome as you are? idk that there's even an excuse on lootmordius.


Are you talking about Durumu and Primordius? Where I went with some friends and not my guild. These friends are closer to your raids ilvl. I mean understandable I would be low compared to them. Its cute how defensive you are. I mean even with your switch to monk half way through the tier you were raiding on monk before my guild even started the tier. My guild is a casual guild and you are taking so much time and effort to try and make me look bad what does that say about you?
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100 Blood Elf Monk
10260
04/03/2013 10:47 AMPosted by Qinling
Edit2: I would also love to hear why your dps was bottom of the barrel on both of your most recent progression kills if WW are fine and you're so amazing. Guess it's difficult to do mechanics -and- be as awesome as you are? idk that there's even an excuse on lootmordius.


Are you talking about Durumu and Primordius? Where I went with some friends and not my guild. These friends are closer to your raids ilvl. I mean understandable I would be low compared to them. Its cute how defensive you are. I mean even with your switch to monk half way through the tier you were raiding on monk before my guild even started the tier. My guild is a casual guild and you are taking so much time and effort to try and make me look bad what does that say about you?


What does it say about me? That I don't like people who come in here and make blanket statement and sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people based on their extremely limited anecdotal experiences.

I thought that was clear. Was that not clear? I was pretty sure we covered that a few pages ago.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11530


Are you talking about Durumu and Primordius? Where I went with some friends and not my guild. These friends are closer to your raids ilvl. I mean understandable I would be low compared to them. Its cute how defensive you are. I mean even with your switch to monk half way through the tier you were raiding on monk before my guild even started the tier. My guild is a casual guild and you are taking so much time and effort to try and make me look bad what does that say about you?


What does it say about me? That I don't like people who come in here and make blanket statement and sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people based on their extremely limited anecdotal experiences.

I thought that was clear. Was that not clear? I was pretty sure we covered that a few pages ago.


Yet I didn't do that. I simply said in the current state monks aren't bad dps, there are plenty doing good numbers every week. There are too many bad players who jumped on the monk fotm since its new and have infected its perception to the rest of the community. We are fine, and we are balanced with the rest of the dps, there are a few specs who are higher than expected and a few lower but we are in the middle pack area where blizzard balances around. You want us to be the end all dps spec, if we aren't top then we are in a bad place. You are the very definition of a fotm bad player. Even when DKs came out in wrath tons cried claiming DKs were bad dps (even though at their launch they are OP).

Bottom line, me and a few others tried to show evidence (real parses of logs, not just sims) and you the instant you see they don't agree with you start trying to attack them personally in some freudian way to compensate for your own inadequacies. Even with your attempt to derail the conversation about monk dps the general conciseness is still showing up. We aren't bad, we aren't top, we aren't bottom, sure many of us would like to see it higher, but its still not way down like some people on these forums attempt to make it appear.

And with that I am out /thread
Edited by Qinling on 4/3/2013 11:26 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Monk
10260


What does it say about me? That I don't like people who come in here and make blanket statement and sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people based on their extremely limited anecdotal experiences.

I thought that was clear. Was that not clear? I was pretty sure we covered that a few pages ago.


Yet I didn't do that. I simply said in the current state monks aren't bad dps, there are plenty doing good numbers every week. There are too many bad players who jumped on the monk fotm since its new and have infected its perception to the rest of the community. We are fine, and we are balanced with the rest of the dps, there are a few specs who are higher than expected and a few lower but we are in the middle pack area where blizzard balances around. You want us to be the end all dps spec, if we aren't top then we are in a bad place. You are the very definition of a fotm bad player. Even when DKs came out in wrath tons cried claiming DKs were bad dps (even though at their launch they are OP).

Bottom line, me and a few others tried to show evidence (real parses of logs, not just sims) and you the instant you see they don't agree with you start trying to attack them personally in some freudian way to compensate for your own inadequacies. Even with your attempt to derail the conversation about monk dps the general conciseness is still showing up. We aren't bad, we aren't top, we aren't bottom, sure many of us would like to see it higher, but its still not way down like some people on these forums attempt to make it appear.

And with that I am out /thread


03/31/2013 03:07 PMPosted by Qinling
Too many baddies who can't dps, or too many people trying to cling onto the almost never using FoF method of 5.1. Good monks are hard to beat dps-wise,


With that statement you said that anyone who's being beaten dps-wise isn't good. And said that there's "too many baddies who can't dps"... why am I even dissecting this? It's all right there. Someone even pointed it out to you WRT why you were getting attacked, and said "It's probably because you came in here and called people bad" ... why this confuses you is beyond me.

I was with monks, and WW, from the start. I was with WW when my entire guild said they were going to suck. I was with them when they were under-represented on raidbots and in top guilds (at first) and I stayed with them right up until the point where my gear was nearing the same ilvl as the rest of our mainspec DPS and started embarassing people on the meters. (Back when we still had 1tank fights) I'm by no stretch of the imagination a "fotm" player. And "attacking" you has nothing to do with compensation on my end, and everything to do with the fact that frankly you don't have the proper qualifications to talk about class balance.
Edited by Pinuppanda on 4/3/2013 11:45 AM PDT
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90 Human Monk
12685
it's the fact that our damage was gutted and we were given a gimmicky cleave to compensate


To be fair, this is kind of an untrue statement. At the time we were given our cleave it was much needed, in some capacity (still dont 100% care for it's current design).

A more appropriate statement would be that our damage was gutted as a result of changing how our mastery worked to appear as a buff that was really unnecessary that resulted in our overall burst being gutted.

There were many other changes they could have made to the class to improve things. And on paper, at the time the new Mastery was introduced it was promising. I would trade it back in a heartbeat to get our original 20% stance back.

But we needed a cleave regardless. The nerf had nothing to do with it.
Edited by Ro on 4/3/2013 2:20 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
13570
03/31/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Pinuppanda
Too many baddies who can't dps, or too many people trying to cling onto the almost never using FoF method of 5.1. Good monks are hard to beat dps-wise, with the exception of maybe 2-3 other dps. We are actually near the top of dps according to real world logs. Sure there are a few other classes and spec that top DPS much easier but that will change like it always does. Just remember Blizzard is taking it slow with monks because they don't want another DK fiscal. When it comes to pvp the way our class operates we are pretty screwed. But in PVE we are up there with the others, maybe not top but far from bottom.


Here:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5ag5igfxuau12wnb/sum/damageDone/?s=766&e=948
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5ag5igfxuau12wnb/sum/damageDone/?s=3793&e=4380

Since you're only killing two normal mode bosses, these are our two most recent kills on those bosses.

For Jinrok, your dps would be below every mainspec dps on our run, the exception being a woefully undergeared spriest who normally heals but goes dps when we've got funky comps. We have 2 10m groups so comps and tank/dps/healer ratios can be a bit off sometimes.

For Horridon you'd be below everyone but the tanks.

Allow me to pay you a backhanded compliment: You may be one of the less-bad players in your guild.

But honestly you're not amazing or anything, and your dps really isn't that good, in fact it's pretty mediocre. Jinrok for instance could be easily explained by standing in more pools, for longer, than the rest of your guild.

Good anything are hard to beat. Class disparities usually don't manifest in significant ways until higher levels of play. For you to come in here and call people "baddies" because you think your DPS is awesome and you think you've got the reasons for people's low DPS pegged without ever having spoken to them is ridiculous. My guild isn't the best guild ever, or even on the server, we're not amazing players, but a lot of us are pretty good, and you're nothing special and you don't know anything special and you haven't figured out the magic reason for WW dps being low.


Gawtem
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90 Blood Elf Monk
CIA
5115
/flexes monk dps power

I wouldn't mind having a burst CD though. Tony the tiger just doesn't do it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13525
man you guys are way too angry at each other : /
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90 Pandaren Monk
15575
Our DPS sucks.

Blizzard ruined the class with he 10% "oh noes lets do something drastic" "fix" day 1 of 5.2....

2 Wind Walkers in the top 300 on Jin'rokh 25 Heroic Fights
0 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Horridon 25 Heroic Fights
0 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Council 25 Heroic Fights
6 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Tortos 25 Heroic Fights
4 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Megaera 25 Heroic Fights
5 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Ji-kun 25 Heroic Fights.

Here is great post describing heroic raiding monks frustrations from one of Midwinter's officers who plays/played a WW as his main.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197742222?page=1
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100 Blood Elf Monk
10260
Our DPS sucks.

Blizzard ruined the class with he 10% "oh noes lets do something drastic" "fix" day 1 of 5.2....

2 Wind Walkers in the top 300 on Jin'rokh 25 Heroic Fights
0 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Horridon 25 Heroic Fights
0 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Council 25 Heroic Fights
6 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Tortos 25 Heroic Fights
4 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Megaera 25 Heroic Fights
5 Wind Walkers in the top 300 Ji-kun 25 Heroic Fights.

Here is great post describing heroic raiding monks frustrations from one of Midwinter's officers who plays/played a WW as his main.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197742222?page=1


What would a top player in a top guild possibly know about the state of class balance? He clearly needs to just l2p. There's a few posters in this thread he can whisper in-game for tips if he needs it.

</tongueincheek>
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Dps is fine, lack of raid utility is the main problem if you're in a halfway decent guild. Which usually makes us have to sit for fights when 1)you're undergeared as a guild and pushing content early into a release cycle. 2)When the fight has very heavy raid damage it is almost better to stack dps classes that have strong raid utility of some form.

We also typically lack the ability to pad on certain fights via cleave or tab dotting which makes us parse lower than other classes that can do that, parsing doesn't matter our single target is still superb we just lack the raid utility to make us worthwhile in most situations.
Edited by Invection on 4/4/2013 6:58 PM PDT
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90 Orc Monk
8375
Sorry but our single target is not superb - look at where we sit on Jinrokh, Ji-Kun, or Durumu as examples. For Jinrokh we are competitive being within 10% of those above us with the exception of sin rogues which is hardly superb but more decidedly average (and I'd guarantee we are working harder than the majority of the pack).

Even if we got our old 20% stance buff back that would still only make us good -> very good. The tested 30% stance buff would have put us on superb - sitting neck to neck with sin rogues (which is an easier class to play).

Too many people are going by their own experience with their own raiding crew. Unfortunately unless you are in the top tier of raiding crews that just isn't sufficient experience to go by on your own. Those who are in the top tier are saying WWs have a large problem - listen to them. Hell I don't understand why you would even be arguing against the suggestion that WW monks need help. Do you like being average? Don't you at least want to be good, let alone great?

Windwalkers need a buff - it's time for people to think beyond there own good experiences and better consider the greater position of monks. Our work output is amongst the highest of fellow dpsers yet we are not adequately rewarded for our work.

We need a 20% damage buff through some means AND we need something extra in the raid utility department.

Of the 20% damage buff we require 10% should come through easy means - reverting our stance nerf.

The remaining 10% (average, 5% for poor players, 10% for the average, 15% for the best) should come through a new ability or the reworking of our current abilities - this part shouldn't be a given and to fully realise it skill is required. Perhaps combo breaker can add FoF to the list but with an added benefit of reducing its CD to no greater then 8 seconds.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11835
Allow me to clear this up for you guys, as someone who has cleared ToT and is 6/13 Heroic, the problem with WW monks IS our dps, we sim high on simcraft because it is a 100% best case scenario, SINGLE TARGET NON MOVING BOSS MOB. In reality there are very few patchwerk style fights in the game, the last one this expansion was garajal, jinrohk kind of counts on normal but on heroic you have to dance during lightning storm which is significantly more dangerous in melee range of the boss.

Jin'Rohk - Decent Monk Fight

Horridon - Tons of adds with no real ability to cleave, SEF dies to EVERYTHING on this fight and SCK cant compete unless you use it in conjunction with TEB and it doesnt REALLY balance out well vs using TEB and hitting a single target

Council of Elders - Decentish monk fight on normal if you can SEF malakk, Marli and Sul and tunnel dps, but not all guilds have the dps to allow you to pad in that manner and dont even think about SEF on more than one target at a time while doing this on heroic and ONLY WHEN you are assigned to interrupting Sul. Otherwise this is a terrible fight for monks on heroic

Tortos - cant outpad other classes on the bats, if you look at single target damage to tortos we do alright.

Maegara - Multi-dot/Cleaves for everyone but us, complete waste to pad on this fight but everyone does anyways, our SEF is the most obvious padding tool in the world and will get spotted instantly by anyone paying attention. On heroic, short bursts of high AoE aka worthless for us due to the need to have TEB up for AoEing to be able to compete and the adds are half dead before you even get a RSK up so we end up very low. Also due to the bursty nature of the fight we fall behind.

Ji-Kun - VERY good fight for monks, we scale quite well with static +damage of the nutrient buff, even better on heroic due to the fact that you HAVE to get nutrients as often as possible and you are in a position to do so.

Durumu - great fight for monks since nobody can really pad on anything except crimson fogs which die too fast for it to matter anyways, only reason to be below others on this is if you cant keep a near perfect rotation while navigating the maze.

Primordius - decent fight again, alot of movement and bloods everywhere makes using FoF impossible which is a loss overall

Dark Animus - everyone goes crazy with the multidot/cleaving and padding, monks fall short here

Iron Qon - Decent monk fight again, single target all day long and a good tool kit to deal with the harder mechanics of this fight

Twin Consorts - Good Monk Fight, Mostly single target and stationary untill suen starts flame charging people, start to fall behind in p3 when both bosses are out and the dot classes can multidot

Lei Shen - Tons of movement so its hard to use FoF effectively, lots of low hp adds that we cant get effective AoE on, only redeeming quality is we have good cooldown for the transitional phases, overall WW performs poorly on this fight as well.

Thats my breakdown, and if you made a list like this for every other melee class you would see that we are bad on more fights than them, thats the simple truth, if FoF was castable while moving, SEF actually was useful and they removed our reliance on having TEB/RSK/RJW for having HIGH effective aoe and just made SCK static and unaffected by everything but RJW we would be in a much better spot overall. Also giving Zen Med a purpose other than a situational personal CD we might be more desired in raids, as it stands most top guilds dont even bother with WW monks, and the ones that do generally only bring one, that one more often than not is a reroll of someone who had been with the guild for a while and just has a raid spot due to being around for a while and having proven competency in past tiers/expansions.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6310
Are these simulations factoring in movement? Honestly people it isn't hard to figure out that is an issue.

That wonderful cleave ability (which I love the idea of and have a lot of fun with) takes an insane amount of work to get working properly and is WAY has the exact same problem FoF has. Great in theory but pretty bad most of the time.
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