Haste Breakpoints

90 Human Warlock
8100
Do i need to hit these breakpoints unbuffed or should i factor in spell haste buff? Thanks.
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90 Orc Warlock
6170
Commonly used breakpoints already factor in the spell haste buff.
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90 Gnome Warlock
12620
Hit them but don't drown yourself into haste. At your ilvl you should be very comfortable with either 4717 or 6637. Some people will tell you haste breakpoint are useless due to how pandemic works but these people clearly doesn't take into account the moment where letting an UA drop to channel MG/DS or simply refreshing other targets is a DPS increase. You should use Reforge Lite to help you reforge.
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100 Goblin Warlock
16660
I am firmly in the screw the threshold camp. (When I run affliction) Don't let your dots fall off. Ever. Uwse an addon called AffDots to ensure you are recasting them at the correct time.
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90 Orc Warlock
6170
I am firmly in the screw the threshold camp. (When I run affliction) Don't let your dots fall off.

Thresholds don't have anything to do with letting your DoTs fall off. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? In a previous thread you said thresholds don't effect DoT ticks...

Seriously... just... stop.
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100 Goblin Warlock
16660
03/29/2013 11:57 AMPosted by Noxidus
I am firmly in the screw the threshold camp. (When I run affliction) Don't let your dots fall off.

Thresholds don't have anything to do with letting your DoTs fall off. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? In a previous thread you said thresholds don't effect DoT ticks...

Seriously... just... stop.


I stand by what I said. Int > Hit > Haste = Mastery > Crit (being worthless)

Yes the dots tick faster, but if they never fall off you will never get an extra tick. If a dot falls off you're doing it wrong.

Edit:

I sac my pet.
Edited by Twinkielock on 3/29/2013 12:42 PM PDT
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100 Orc Warlock
HC
12250
....please go learn how pandemic works and then realize that extra dot ticks are always beneficial regardless of how horrible your uptime is.
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90 Orc Warlock
6170
Yes the dots tick faster, but if they never fall off you will never get an extra tick. If a dot falls off you're doing it wrong.

For the last time, that is not how ticks work.

Stop being bad.

Research your class.
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90 Human Warlock
11940


Thresholds don't have anything to do with letting your DoTs fall off. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? In a previous thread you said thresholds don't effect DoT ticks...

Seriously... just... stop.


I stand by what I said. Int > Hit > Haste = Mastery > Crit (being worthless)

Yes the dots tick faster, but if they never fall off you will never get an extra tick. If a dot falls off you're doing it wrong.

Edit:

I sac my pet.


Lemme explain how haste effects dots (even if they never fall off). These numbers are completely made up and are just used as examples of what haste does for you.

I am going to use UA as an example.
At 0 haste UA will tick 7 times in 14 seconds. Thats a total of 150 ticks every 5 minutes.*
At the first haste breakpoint you gain an extra tick of UA. This means that every 14 seconds UA will tick 8 times. Thats a total of 171 ticks over 5 minutes.*
At the 2nd haste breakpoint you gain an additional 2 ticks of UA. This means that every 14 seconds UA will tick 9 times. Thats a total of 193 ticks over 5 minutes.*

Assuming an average 28,000 damage per tick of UA:
UA is doing 4.2 million damage over 5 minutes (or 14,000 DPS) with 0 haste.*
At the first haste breakpoint UA is doing 4.8 million damage over 5 minutes (or 15,960 DPS).*
At the 2nd haste breakpoint UA is doing 5.4 million damage over 5 minutes (or 18,013 DPS).*

*Assuming 100% uptime.

So by hitting the first 2 haste breakpoints for UA (6,637 haste), you are gaining 4k DPS. This isnt counting the extra tick you get from hero/bl/tw, and isnt counting the other 2 dots, or the damage gain you get from DS and MG.

The only time haste breakpoints don't matter for affliction is when a mob isn't going to last the maximum length of your dot's.

Edit: I figured I would throw this in there. Sitting between haste breakpoints (i.e. 4200 haste instead of 4717 haste) is actually a DPS loss. The reason is, at 4200 haste your corruption spell is nearing the next haste breakpoint. The closer you get to a haste breakpoint, the less time that dot will remain on that target, meaning you will need to refresh that dot more often. The duration of the dot reduces until another dot can fit into the base time of the spell

For instance, at 0 haste corruption lasts for 18 seconds. When you near a haste breakpoint without crossing it, the duration lowers by almost 2 seconds. After you reach the haste breakpoint, the duration returns to 18 seconds, adds another tick and continues to decrease in duration until you hit the next breakpoint. So instead of wasting a GCD every 18 seconds to refresh at 4717, you are refreshing corruption and spending a GCD every 16 seconds. For the math nuts, that's nearly 17 GCD's (or 25 seconds over 5 minutes) refreshing corruption at 4717, or nearly 19 GCD's (or 28 seconds over 5 minutes) refreshing corruption at 4200 haste.

Hope this clarified it a bit more for those unsure what the point of hitting haste breakpoints with pandemic was.
Edited by Whyzlock on 3/29/2013 2:50 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
5350
owned.
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100 Undead Warlock
16935
^ There's a lot wrong in there.

Every point of Haste lowers the time it takes for your dots to tick. More Haste will always mean more dot ticks over the course of a fight, Haste is always a DPS increase.

All the breakpoints do is increase the duration of your dot.
At 4716 Haste, one cast of Agony will give you 10 ticks over the course of 17.143 seconds. Each tick will be about 17.143 seconds apart.
At 4717 Haste, one cast of Agony will give you 11 ticks over the course of 18.85719 seconds. Each tick will be 17.1429 seconds apart.

So, that one point of Haste likely won't give you any extra ticks of Agony over the course of the fight, but it will give you a longer duration on Agony, giving you more time to channel MG and letting you get more empowered dot ticks if you game refreshes.
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90 Human Warlock
11940
^ There's a lot wrong in there.

Every point of Haste lowers the time it takes for your dots to tick. More Haste will always mean more dot ticks over the course of a fight, Haste is always a DPS increase.

All the breakpoints do is increase the duration of your dot.
At 4716 Haste, one cast of Agony will give you 10 ticks over the course of 17.143 seconds. Each tick will be about 17.143 seconds apart.
At 4717 Haste, one cast of Agony will give you 11 ticks over the course of 18.85719 seconds. Each tick will be 17.1429 seconds apart.

So, that one point of Haste likely won't give you any extra ticks of Agony over the course of the fight, but it will give you a longer duration on Agony, giving you more time to channel MG and letting you get more empowered dot ticks if you game refreshes.


Haste decreases (not increases) the duration of your dot, until it reaches a breakpoint. Take my gear for instance. It is currently optimized for Demo, not affliction, so I only have 2361 haste in affliction spec, which is just below the haste threshold of 2367 (without the 5% raid buff) for corruption. With 0 haste, the tooltip reads "Does X damage over 18 seconds". With 2361 it reads "Does X damage over 17.06 seconds". Now if I equip just a bit more haste, and hit 2396, it reads "Does X damage over 18.93 seconds". I gained almost 2 seconds of a duration of corruption by adding 35 haste and passing the threshold to add an additional tick.

As far as additional ticks are concerned:
You are looking at it wrong, for agony, the ticks are defaulted to 1 tick every 2 seconds (or 2000ms), not one tick every 17 seconds (or every 17000ms). When you add haste, the reason the duration decreases until you add another tick, is because the tick speed (which is at 2000ms at 0 haste) lowers until you hit that threshold. So if your ticks are hitting once every 1714.3ms apart, over the course of 5 minutes (300,000ms) it will tick 174.99 times but its duration will only be 17.143 seconds. At a tick speed of 1714.2, it will tick 175.00875 times over 5 minutes, but its duration will be increased by almost 2 seconds (18.86 seconds). Yes you only gain one additional tick over 5 minutes with 1 point of haste assuming 100% uptime, however comparing that to 0 haste you are gaining 25 ticks over 5 minutes, which is substantial. The main reason for not sitting between breakpoints are the lowered durations, lost GCD's, and additional ticks you gain from channeling MG, and not so much the additional ticks you gain from the base dot.
Edited by Whyzlock on 3/29/2013 4:31 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warlock
0
To answer your question:

Unbuffed - Unless you KNOW you will have the spell haste buff EVERY time you raid. And even then, there will be times you wont. eg. PUGs
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100 Undead Warlock
16935
Haste decreases (not increases) the duration of your dot, until it reaches a breakpoint. Take my gear for instance. It is currently optimized for Demo, not affliction, so I only have 2361 haste in affliction spec, which is just below the haste threshold of 2367 (without the 5% raid buff) for corruption. With 0 haste, the tooltip reads "Does X damage over 18 seconds". With 2361 it reads "Does X damage over 17.06 seconds". Now if I equip just a bit more haste, and hit 2396, it reads "Does X damage over 18.93 seconds". I gained almost 2 seconds of a duration of corruption by adding 35 haste and passing the threshold to add an additional tick.

You are looking at it wrong, for agony, the ticks are defaulted to 1 tick every 2 seconds (or 2000ms), not one tick every 17 seconds (or every 17000ms). When you add haste, the reason the duration decreases until you add another tick, is because the tick speed (which is at 2000ms at 0 haste) lowers until you hit that threshold. So if your ticks are hitting once every 1714.3ms apart, over the course of 5 minutes (300,000ms) it will tick 174.99 times but its duration will only be 17.143 seconds. At a tick speed of 1714.2, it will tick 175.00875 times over 5 minutes, but its duration will be increased by almost 2 seconds (18.86 seconds). Yes you only gain one additional tick over 5 minutes with 1 point of haste assuming 100% uptime, however comparing that to 0 haste you are gaining 25 ticks over 5 minutes, which is substantial.


This is all correct, but does not contradict what I posted.

The main reason for not sitting between breakpoints are the lowered durations, lost GCD's, and additional ticks you gain from channeling MG, and not so much the additional ticks you gain from the base dot.


Here's what's wrong. While you're between thresholds, more Haste does not cost you GCD's. Though the duration of your dots decreases, you also decrease the tick time on MG, the GCD, cast time on all spells, et cetera. You're still getting the exact same amount of MG ticks in between dot refreshes, since MG is also affected by Haste at the same rate as your dots. When you hit a threshold, you get extra GCD's, but Haste after that threshold is still a DPS gain.
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90 Troll Warlock
20435
To answer OP's questions, haste breakpoints are generally the unbuffed amount you need to hit the DoT threshold. 99% of the time they're under the assumption that you'll have 5% Haste from a Shadow Priest, Ele Shaman, Boomkin or Hunter.

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=44

Using this as a guide, to get your 9th tick of UA, you'll need 21.4% haste.

With zero haste buffs, you'll need 9,094 haste rating to hit it.
With 5% Haste, you'll need 6637 haste rating to hit it.
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90 Orc Warlock
12710
I am firmly in the mediocre dps camp. (When I run affliction) Don't let your dots fall off. Ever. Uwse an addon called AffDots to ensure you are recasting them at the correct time.


Had to fix that a bit for you.
Edited by Zeedrate on 3/30/2013 11:26 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
11940
Haste decreases (not increases) the duration of your dot, until it reaches a breakpoint. Take my gear for instance. It is currently optimized for Demo, not affliction, so I only have 2361 haste in affliction spec, which is just below the haste threshold of 2367 (without the 5% raid buff) for corruption. With 0 haste, the tooltip reads "Does X damage over 18 seconds". With 2361 it reads "Does X damage over 17.06 seconds". Now if I equip just a bit more haste, and hit 2396, it reads "Does X damage over 18.93 seconds". I gained almost 2 seconds of a duration of corruption by adding 35 haste and passing the threshold to add an additional tick.

You are looking at it wrong, for agony, the ticks are defaulted to 1 tick every 2 seconds (or 2000ms), not one tick every 17 seconds (or every 17000ms). When you add haste, the reason the duration decreases until you add another tick, is because the tick speed (which is at 2000ms at 0 haste) lowers until you hit that threshold. So if your ticks are hitting once every 1714.3ms apart, over the course of 5 minutes (300,000ms) it will tick 174.99 times but its duration will only be 17.143 seconds. At a tick speed of 1714.2, it will tick 175.00875 times over 5 minutes, but its duration will be increased by almost 2 seconds (18.86 seconds). Yes you only gain one additional tick over 5 minutes with 1 point of haste assuming 100% uptime, however comparing that to 0 haste you are gaining 25 ticks over 5 minutes, which is substantial.


This is all correct, but does not contradict what I posted.

The main reason for not sitting between breakpoints are the lowered durations, lost GCD's, and additional ticks you gain from channeling MG, and not so much the additional ticks you gain from the base dot.


Here's what's wrong. While you're between thresholds, more Haste does not cost you GCD's. Though the duration of your dots decreases, you also decrease the tick time on MG, the GCD, cast time on all spells, et cetera. You're still getting the exact same amount of MG ticks in between dot refreshes, since MG is also affected by Haste at the same rate as your dots. When you hit a threshold, you get extra GCD's, but Haste after that threshold is still a DPS gain.


MG works like Dots, the channel time decreases while you sit between breakpoints (until a 5th tick can be added). Yes haste after a threshold is still a DPS gain, but when you are sitting less than 2 gems away from that break point, you are losing DPS by not reforging/gemming to hit that break point.

As far as GCD's go, the GCD with 0 haste is 1.5 seconds. You need 10% haste (4230 haste without raid buffs, non goblin) to lower the GCD by .1 second (50% for the 1 second GCD). At 6637 haste with raid haste, (the second UA breakpoint) your GCD is still ~1.3 seconds. Yes haste does lower the GCD, but not at a rate which is faster than any of our cast times. As far as cast time reduction, the only spells we have that have cast times are haunt (which is a 1.5 second cast time with 0 haste) and UA (which is a 1.13 second cast time with 0 haste glyphed, or a 1.5 second cast time with no haste and no glyph). In both cases, unless the cast time is higher than the GCD (like Chaos Bolt for destro or Shadow Bolt/Soul Fire for demo), you gain no DPS by adding haste to reduce the cast time, as you will still be waiting for the GCD even if you can reduce it to an instant cast.

The only benefit you gain from cast time reduction via haste is when you use AV or MF instead of KJC to reduce the amount of time you have to stand still while you cast. So yes, you are partially right. For demo and destro because of fury/ember generation haste is a dps increase regardless of where the breakpoints are (to a certain point), for affliction however; there is no direct DPS increase for sitting between breakpoints, and if there is, it is minimal. That said, hit the cap that is easiest for you to obtain in your gear and reforge the rest into mastery.
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100 Orc Warlock
15285
03/31/2013 12:06 AMPosted by Whyzlock
MG works like Dots, the channel time decreases while you sit between breakpoints (until a 5th tick can be added). Yes haste after a threshold is still a DPS gain, but when you are sitting less than 2 gems away from that break point, you are losing DPS by not reforging/gemming to hit that break point.


No, it doesn't. MG does not gain ticks. At 300% haste, MG will have a 1 second cast time, and you will gain zero benefit to MG from any further haste.
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90 Human Warlock
11940
MG works like Dots, the channel time decreases while you sit between breakpoints (until a 5th tick can be added). Yes haste after a threshold is still a DPS gain, but when you are sitting less than 2 gems away from that break point, you are losing DPS by not reforging/gemming to hit that break point.


No, it doesn't. MG does not gain ticks. At 300% haste, MG will have a 1 second cast time, and you will gain zero benefit to MG from any further haste.


Yeah I don't have a clue where I thought MG got another tick, sorry. Been playing my druid too long.
Edited by Whyzlock on 3/31/2013 1:46 AM PDT
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