its that time again...top 100 raidbots data

90 Undead Warlock
13800
"We're happy with where Ret is right now"

I guess blizz is happy with us being near the bottom. Not that I'd expect otherwise anymore.


Someone has to be near the bottom, and the chances of a Hybrid (with only 1 DPS spec) being there versus a Pure (which has 3 options) is much higher since the Pure could even have 2 bad specs and 1 great one.
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100 Tauren Paladin
17620
Except hunters have one meh spec. SV is played because it's okay and two at the bottom BM and MM get that spot all to themselves.

Mages would have been in the same position with hunters except they recieved a buff in a week instead of months.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
so if this data doesnt mean anything, why was raidbots data enough to adjust mages in the first week of raiding, but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

argue the data is irrelevant all you want, the devs themselves thought it was relevant enough to make changes after a single week.
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so if this data doesnt mean anything, why was raidbots data enough to adjust mages in the first week of raiding, but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

argue the data is irrelevant all you want, the devs themselves thought it was relevant enough to make changes after a single week.


They also destroyed an entire spec less than a month before the patch. They also hit the top mage spec with the hardest nerfs in two successive patches. The "buff" we got was only partial compensation for all the nerfs.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
so if this data doesnt mean anything, why was raidbots data enough to adjust mages in the first week of raiding, but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

argue the data is irrelevant all you want, the devs themselves thought it was relevant enough to make changes after a single week.


Who says Raidbots data was the only source of evidence needed for Blizzard to buff mages? Don't you think they have more comprehensive data than Raidbots?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6075
.........Fire is doing well at higher gear levels. We said this during the "sky was falling" about 3 weeks ago...... I am not surprised that it is doing well.


After being given significant multi dotting buffs.
You might have an argument if you could look past those buffs, but since you can't it's silly to say anything.
Also fire is a known higher potential variance spec, so looking at top 100 is even more biased.

Mages would have been in the same position with hunters except they recieved a buff in a week instead of months.

That quick buff was probably a lesson learned from Hunters in 5.0.

but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

I have responded to this quite a lot of times, the thing about an entire class doing poorly (With a class that's common) is that there is no spec bias(Commonly referred to as selection bias).
People aren't going to pick the worst spec at most levels of raiding, particularly heroic raiding, as such the overall data is skewed against those specs. The differences between the specs is therefore enlarged artificially.
Edited by Warping on 4/4/2013 11:11 PM PDT
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100 Gnome Mage
16080

I would think looking at the top 3000 or so would be more accurate.


Top anything is inaccurate. If you picked top 3000, you'd be comparing the top 10% of a spec with 30,000 parses (including all its top outliers, but excluding all its bottom outliers) against the top 50% of a spec with 6000 parses (same outliers problem) against all of a spec with 2500 parses (including all outliers at both ends).

How do you factor out gear differentials? You can't assume there's an equal distribution of gear levels across three such different samples. You have no was of knowing what the distributions are. Ditto with skill.

It's possible, but not simple, to extract useful information from Raidbots about some, but not all, specs. It isn't really possible to extract useful information from a Top X sample.


Where do you feel Arcane Mages are sitting right now?
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
so if this data doesnt mean anything, why was raidbots data enough to adjust mages in the first week of raiding, but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

argue the data is irrelevant all you want, the devs themselves thought it was relevant enough to make changes after a single week.


Who says Raidbots data was the only source of evidence needed for Blizzard to buff mages? Don't you think they have more comprehensive data than Raidbots?


well, surely there must be enough data to see that marks/ele are doing poorly relative to other ranged dps, for example. or ret/enhance relative to other melee, and so on.

all I want is fair treatment/consideration for all classes, cause it sucks to be "that guy" who is stuck with a dead dps spec for an entire tier. even though mages got help, now arcane is in the same boat as MM for example. fire/survival are doing decent, while arcane/mm/bm are doing much worse, relatively.

I dont like the "one spec is ok, thus it is ok if the other specs suck" ideology. it's that idea that gets specs like ret held back (because holy does well, they dont care). or since fire mages are doing well, it's ok that arcane is doing poorly.

better overall balance is needed, most definitely.
Edited by Sanctifìed on 4/4/2013 11:29 PM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
23430
The only good thing about being enh is that whenever I kill a H fight now, I rank top 5 or something lol.
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90 Worgen Mage
12575
June 1st 2013 5.3 drops

June 3rd - 8th: Major Hotfix that nerfs locks/Unholy/WW and buffs fire.

It's going to happen people. May not be those exact classes by let's be serious people. Last time they had an in between patch, it screwed over an entire spec.


You know a mage spec has been screwed over by major nerfs in each of this expansions patches right?
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
The only good thing about being enh is that whenever I kill a H fight now, I rank top 5 or something lol.


our hunter went marks on jinrokh just to rank. :p
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90 Human Warrior
15460
Did I miss the memo on something here, Arcane is doing pretty well, I thought it was supposed to be "broken"....
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
so if this data doesnt mean anything, why was raidbots data enough to adjust mages in the first week of raiding, but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

argue the data is irrelevant all you want, the devs themselves thought it was relevant enough to make changes after a single week.


because they were at the bottom overall as well. and since blizz loves mages they didnt get the traditional "wait till there is more data"
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100 Pandaren Shaman
8395
The only good thing about being enh is that whenever I kill a H fight now, I rank top 5 or something lol.


I wish I had your gear so I could rank. =\
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6075
Did I miss the memo on something here, Arcane is doing pretty well, I thought it was supposed to be "broken"....


You should look closer at the data and you would discover exactly why that is.
It has a low number of parses but is doing well on multidot fights.

This is because of the arcane mastery increasing all damage done in combination with the new and improved mage bombs.
I have also seen some parses with them doing well on the first fight, I would have to investigate exactly why that is and look at the number of parses to see if that is an anomaly or not.
I won't at the moment because I am at work.
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1 Troll Rogue
0
You can't judge fire mages via top 100 anymore than you can judge healer/hybrids via all parses.

100 is not enough data to show anything but the luckiest of the lucky fire mages. They are a crit spec, though less RNG than in the past, can still swing drastically.

Same as, you can't know for sure how many of those ele shamans are actually main specced resto shamans, asked to dps when they 2 heal a boss. This brings down their average when looking at all parses.

You have to think. Period.
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1 Troll Rogue
0
on all parses, enhance is 3k dps behind fury. ret is 5k behind. (and the worst melee, /cry)

this is why that data is flawed. we know that isnt the case. a geared fury warrior will stomp both into the ground on the meters.


The reason for these discrepancies is, you're talking about two hybrids. I just explained this above. Some of those enh and rets are actually main specced healers, asked to go to their offspec for a 2 heal fight. This has the effect of lowering their averages when looking at all parses.

The opposite is also true for crit based pure dps specs, top 100 is in no way an accurate representation of their class/spec/dps.

Looking at fire mages, all parses is a better judge. They are middle of the pack.
Looking at healer hybrids, top 100 works better, because that weeds out the main spec healers asked to go dps for a 2 heal fight.
Edited by Freemarket on 4/5/2013 2:29 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
Use 90th percentile, not top 100 ROFL.


So what do you do when the 90th percentile includes parses from the top 100?
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
so if this data doesnt mean anything, why was raidbots data enough to adjust mages in the first week of raiding, but not enough to adjust say, mm hunters, ww monks, ret paladins, or ele shamans?

argue the data is irrelevant all you want, the devs themselves thought it was relevant enough to make changes after a single week.


Who says Raidbots data was the only source of evidence needed for Blizzard to buff mages? Don't you think they have more comprehensive data than Raidbots?


The Devs have eternal testing and ptr test. internally and on the ptr mages were doing very well even after the last patch on ptr dropped they were doing well. The only feasible way that they found mages doing low was parses(IE raidbots and WoL). While it is not the only source, it was the main one.
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