Basic feral rotation?

90 Worgen Death Knight
2805
Am i right in thinking the basic feral rotation is just

Auto-attack
Mangle
Rake
Keep up Savage Roar
Keep up Rip

Ofc Savage is a higher priority then Rip?

If this is right, im actually noticing im quite energy starved alot of the time, its not that i cant keep this rotation up.. Its just i seem to be taking very long to get everything up and running on my enemy

Its worse for pvp, considering people can burst me before i can even get the Dot's and Savage roar up
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100 Tauren Druid
21885
Basic rotation is

SR has priority, it must be up at all times.

SHRED not mangle is our main combo point generator.

So basically it's SR (glyphed allows you to use it before you start damage), rake, shred to 5 CPs. rip, and then try to keep them all up.

And yeah that's pretty much feral, we're energy starved a lot of the time. Soul of the forest is a good talent if you're doing PvE although PvP ferals take incarnation for the burst potential.

(Burst macro is berserk/ Natures vigil/ incarnation all popped at the same time, then spam ravage on the target with SR up beforehand and also Tigers fury popped beforehand as well)

Tigers fury restores energy when used btw, but it's a 30 sec c/d.
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90 Tauren Druid
10690
Mangle has its place in the feral priority list. And Shred is best on OoC, etc procs and when Beserk/Lust is up. And learn the power of pooling energy. You don't need to be working to push out a hit every single time you have the energy. Use ferocious bite when it will do maximum dps. Don't use it just because Rip and Rake are up and SR is above 10 secs. You'll notice a major change when you're hitting FB at the proper times vs just hitting it everytime you have the dots up and CPs available. Only time it can be hit frequently is towards the end of a boss fight when it will refresh you Rip. And I can say I noticed the difference on mine. When you hit a 400k crit on a boss vs a 100k crit you'll thank me.

And on Tiger's Fury. If you have more than 40 energy when using it you are wasting it.

I think feral is organized chaos. I personally enjoy the extras of the NS/SotF/DoC spec and recommend it for top dps at 90 if you think you can pull it off. However, on some fight HotW is simply better for various reasons. That's why Blizzard changed the talent trees to give us even more flexibility! Cheers and check out the Fluid Druid Kitty DPS forums!!! An awesome wealth of knowledge.
Edited by Karvé on 4/5/2013 11:47 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
8700
For PvP, your rotation might be (slightly) different. You want to get either rake or faerie fire up ASAP on any rogues you are fighting. You may want to use a one-point maim to try to trick your opponent into blowing his trinket. And you ought to get Thrash up on your first Omen of Clarity proc, if you are fighting a melee opponent. In a perfect world you only apply your rip when tiger's fury is active-- all of its ticks will benefit from the damage buff. Huh I guess there is a lot to remember!

I recommend downloading the power auras or weak auras add-on, which will be very helpful in keeping track of which DoTs are up and which ones you should cast.
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100 Tauren Druid
18690
04/05/2013 10:20 AMPosted by Waraila
SHRED not mangle is our main combo point generator.

As our bleeds become more powerful with more mastery, and energy refunds from SotF Mangle starts to come out ahead as a combo point builder strictly for it's efficiency.
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100 Tauren Druid
21885
As our bleeds become more powerful with more mastery, and energy refunds from SotF Mangle starts to come out ahead as a combo point builder strictly for it's efficiency.


Eh I guess... I still find shred better still... it's instinctive I guess from using shred as the main cp generator for the last 5+ years.
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100 Worgen Druid
16335
If you're coming from a rogue background you have to realize that combo points aren't king for Feral; maximally-buffed DoT uptime is, which indirectly means that energy management is king.

Combo points are just incidental. It's a much bigger loss to miss the chance to get a fully buffed Rip up than it is to sit on 5CP for 15 seconds and forego a Ferocious Bite.

Sometimes you will find yourself doing a 5CP Rip and then doing another 5CP Rip 10 seconds later.

Re. Mangle vs. Shred, the short answer is that if you need CPs ASAP or in a certain time window (e.g. Blades of Renataki has procked and you want to get a 5CP Rip off before it ends) then you Mangle. Mangle/Shred is only about 10% of your DPS anyway; 75-80% of your DPS comes from white attack, Rip and Rake. Shred is a small DPS gain for situations where you are not in danger of having not enough CP available when it's time to Rip or SR.

The difference between a good Feral and a crap one is that the good Feral has just about 100% uptimes of Rip and Rake which are buffed by most/all of { Savage Roar, Tiger's Fury, DoC, Trinket 1, Trinket 2 }. If you only maintain 100% uptime of SR'd Rip and Rake, ignoring when your agi trinkets proc then you will be sub-par.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
2805
If you're coming from a rogue background you have to realize that combo points aren't king for Feral; maximally-buffed DoT uptime is, which indirectly means that energy management is king.

Combo points are just incidental. It's a much bigger loss to miss the chance to get a fully buffed Rip up than it is to sit on 5CP for 15 seconds and forego a Ferocious Bite.

Sometimes you will find yourself doing a 5CP Rip and then doing another 5CP Rip 10 seconds later.

Re. Mangle vs. Shred, the short answer is that if you need CPs ASAP or in a certain time window (e.g. Blades of Renataki has procked and you want to get a 5CP Rip off before it ends) then you Mangle. Mangle/Shred is only about 10% of your DPS anyway; 75-80% of your DPS comes from white attack, Rip and Rake. Shred is a small DPS gain for situations where you are not in danger of having not enough CP available when it's time to Rip or SR.

The difference between a good Feral and a crap one is that the good Feral has just about 100% uptimes of Rip and Rake which are buffed by most/all of { Savage Roar, Tiger's Fury, DoC, Trinket 1, Trinket 2 }. If you only maintain 100% uptime of SR'd Rip and Rake, ignoring when your agi trinkets proc then you will be sub-par.


Yeah im playing alot of rogue lately and im so used to just bursting out my combo points on what needs to be used next, i think i just need to learn not to spend like 3 points on rip and just wait till 5.. after all im not really a burst class more a high sustained damage
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100 Night Elf Druid
14900

As our bleeds become more powerful with more mastery, and energy refunds from SotF Mangle starts to come out ahead as a combo point builder strictly for it's efficiency.


Out of curiosity how does the mastery of the bleeds effect SotF? Maybe I misread which would be my bad, but the Mangle/SotF interaction being more energy beneficial would be there at all levels of gear. Shred should be better than Mangle (since it hits harder), and we should be generating enough energy naturally to suppot the stronger hitting shreds.

Also, OoC procs should me used on Thrash, since it's a fairly strong bleed effect for free on a proc.
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100 Tauren Druid
18690
If you're coming from a rogue background you have to realize that combo points aren't king for Feral; maximally-buffed DoT uptime is, which indirectly means that energy management is king.

The bold is the only correct portion of your statement. Because of SotF combo points are much more important. In pervious expacs you would sit at 5 combo points and keep shredding until it was time to refresh. Now when ever we use a finisher it costs 20 less energy if used at 5 combo points. That means SR only costs 5 energy, and Rip only 10. Sitting on combo points now is a loss of energy. This promotes using FB much more often. It is still a DPS gain to use 5 combo points when you get them even at a cost to Rip uptime.

The difference between a good Feral and a crap one is that the good Feral has just about 100% uptimes of Rip and Rake which are buffed by most/all of { Savage Roar, Tiger's Fury, DoC, Trinket 1, Trinket 2 }. If you only maintain 100% uptime of SR'd Rip and Rake, ignoring when your agi trinkets proc then you will be sub-par.

You do realize that it just isn't possible to do as you suggest? TF doesn't line up with Rip at all. A fully extended Rip lasts 22 seconds (26 if you still have 4p T14). That doesn't line up with TF at all. If you are suggesting that you redo Rip every time TF comes up, you are wasting energy and damage. Same goes for DoC. It's awesome to get as many DoC'd Rips as possible, but you won't be able to get them all. It is NOT a good idea to refresh Rip early just because you got 5 combos and a DoC point.
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100 Tauren Druid
18690
Out of curiosity how does the mastery of the bleeds effect SotF? Maybe I misread which would be my bad, but the Mangle/SotF interaction being more energy beneficial would be there at all levels of gear. Shred should be better than Mangle (since it hits harder), and we should be generating enough energy naturally to suppot the stronger hitting shreds.
Also, OoC procs should me used on Thrash, since it's a fairly strong bleed effect for free on a proc.

With Sotf it becomes beneficial to execute as many finishers as possible. To do finishers you require combo points. Mangle is a cheaper more flexible option (ie don't have to be behind) to get those combo points. As bleeds and FB become even bigger portions of our damage, Mangle and Shred tend to make up less then 10% of our over all damage. The minor loss between Shred and Mangle start making less of a difference if it would mean getting another FB off.
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100 Worgen Druid
16335
You can't get every single Rip perfect, I'm saying you should try to get as many buffs on your Rips as you can manage.

Yeah im playing alot of rogue lately and im so used to just bursting out my combo points on what needs to be used next, i think i just need to learn not to spend like 3 points on rip and just wait till 5.. after all im not really a burst class more a high sustained damage


There's pretty much no reason ever to Rip at less than 5CP (I will do a 4CP rip sometimes if I've messed things up, and Renataki or Superluminal is going to fall off, I think a 4CP Superluminal Rip is better than a 5CP unbuffed one).

We are good at burst and sustained (thanks to TF + Berserk), as long as we're looking at a fight duration of at least 25 seconds or so :) Other classes will win on trash that goes down in 15 seconds.
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90 Tauren Druid
9105
Sounds like there are two distinct feral rotations going on--one based on SotF and mangle, and the other based on previous expac rotations.

In pervious expacs you would sit at 5 combo points and keep shredding until it was time to refresh. Now when ever we use a finisher it costs 20 less energy if used at 5 combo points.


What if you don't take SotF? Or is that simply the best option now?

I'm asking because I've been blithely mangle spamming this expac, and am happy to learn it's totally viable. But I would be even happier (in a meta sense) if both ways were equally viable, depending on your choices.
Edited by Hudax on 4/8/2013 4:35 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
18690
What if you don't take SotF? Or is that simply the best option now?

Taking anything else for PVE is a pretty steep loss. Incarnation is really a PVP only tool.
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90 Tauren Druid
10690
04/08/2013 06:23 PMPosted by Tinderhoof
What if you don't take SotF? Or is that simply the best option now?

Taking anything else for PVE is a pretty steep loss. Incarnation is really a PVP only tool.


I enjoy your posts here and TFD! And so much truth. As nice as Incarnation sounds it's a burst CD. A burst CD won't produce the consistent extra damage SotF will allow. Consistent damage is what a boss fight is all about. The more consistent your damage is the higher your dps. The more you have to burst the more it'll end up like a roller coaster and not be enough to be a contributing dps compared to other classes and specs.
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04/05/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Tinderhoof
SHRED not mangle is our main combo point generator.

As our bleeds become more powerful with more mastery, and energy refunds from SotF Mangle starts to come out ahead as a combo point builder strictly for it's efficiency.


That assumes you're grabbing Soul over Incarnation.
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100 Worgen Druid
16335
I've been experimenting with Treants.. it's kind of useful on Horridon to pop them and have magically stunned adds each door :)
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100 Tauren Druid
18690
That assumes you're grabbing Soul over Incarnation.

Going to quote myself from 2 post ago:

Taking anything else for PVE is a pretty steep loss. Incarnation is really a PVP only tool.

If you are using Incarnation in PVE this tier you are only hurting your sustained damage. It is not worth taking.
Edited by Tinderhoof on 4/9/2013 3:56 PM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
19320
@mangle vs shred
there really isn't a reason to use Mangle - the 5 less energy cost is unnoticeable, but the lower damage for not having a bonus for bleeds is more noticeable. Regardless of what percentage of your damage it would be, by NOT using mangle, you're essentially losing damage by choice -- or otherwise just not maximizing your DPS, which happens to be what most DPS are compared against (how much damage you can do, how good are you at avoiding stuff, or quick you are to BRez, off-heal, interrupt, or do anything else that isn't involved with dps).

@incarnation
I used to use this mostly cuz I didn't want to bother with DoC (not that I couldn't, I just didn't like it). But I changed my mind for Tier 15 and have seen a fairly modest gain.
I'd go so far to say Incarnation really has no place in heroic raiding (where low DPS will be penalized most). The only exception I can think of is Heroic Elegon early in progression, where a skilled group of DPS could push him into the first spark phase before 2 big adds came out better/easier with Incarnation (but then as soon as you got geared, you could end up doing more damage with SotF/DoC).

@renataki's trinket//trinkets in general
With renataki's you do know you have about 18 seconds to get things lined up for the 10th stack of it, right? That's almost twice as long as Pred Swiftness, plenty of time to get 5 combo points at minimum and pool some after it, and a pretty good chance to see TF come back up. I've even taken to holding NS+HT for when Renataki's procs.

For most other trinkets, I'd highly suggest to make weakaura's, or other noticeable cooldown/proc/buff tracking mods. For Renataki's particularly, since it's proc stacks, have 1 weakaura show for 1-4 stacks, duplicate, 1 weakaura for 5-9 stacks, duplicate, 1 weakaura for 10 stacks. Or if you knew a trinket had an ICD, you could make a weakaura for it to know when it could proc again. Really, WeakAura's is a hugely useful addon.
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100 Tauren Druid
18690
04/09/2013 05:08 PMPosted by Adramelk
there really isn't a reason to use Mangle - the 5 less energy cost is unnoticeable, but the lower damage for not having a bonus for bleeds is more noticeable. Regardless of what percentage of your damage it would be, by NOT using mangle, you're essentially losing damage by choice

Ya this isn't really true. These days on a single target fight Mangle/Shred make up less then 10% of our total damage. 20% of 10% is actually a pretty small number. The benefit of having more combo points (as you will be able to have used more mangles through out the fight) will lead to more finishers and thus more energy. This does not take into account that you will have more flexability with your rotation.

Now if you really don't believe me, the math is on FluidDruid, and SimC's feral script is mostly Mangles with Shreds for high energy, Berserk, and OOC procs. Attempting to Sim any rotation with more Shreds proved to be a DPS loss in every case.
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