5.3 PTR Talkback for holy paladins

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90 Human Paladin
9525
Holy

-Mastery: Illuminated Healing now places an absorb shield for 10% of the amount healed, down from 12%.
-Daybreak is now a stackable effect with a duration of 10 seconds, stacks up to 2 times, and causes the next Holy Shock to also heal other allies within 10 yards of the target for an amount equal to 75%/150% of the original healing done

Item Sets

-Tier-14 Holy Paladin 4-piece set bonus now reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock by 1 second, down from 2 seconds.


So what do you guys think?
Edited by Whodatank on 4/15/2013 12:56 PM PDT
90 Human Priest
13730
not enough

more please
90 Blood Elf Priest
7845
Nerf tier 14 4 set to the ground and pallies fall right back into line.

As an alternative, make it baseline and balance spells around that fact, perhaps with a slight tune down on mastery or tune up on other stats to make a few other gearing strategies more viable.

I don't want paladins to be weak or gimped in any way. Far from it. I just want them to move on from tier 14 stuff like most other healers, though I do feel for them in terms of holy power generation. It feels a bit sluggish when I play mine.

Oh, and make daybreak a bit less weak but, like, increase the mana cost of the holy shock needed to consume it by a small amount to make it harder to spam.

Edit: Now that I think about it, making haste decrease the cooldown of holy shock would be nice, if properly tuned and capped at say... 4 secs?
Edited by Fereveralone on 4/15/2013 1:05 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
The holy shock change needs to be clarified as that is an odd change. Seems like a set bonus as opposed to a talent change. Not sure where they came up with that one.
The holy shock change needs to be clarified as that is an odd change. Seems like a set bonus as opposed to a talent change. Not sure where they came up with that one.

Hm? Not sure what you mean by that.

The nerf to mastery simply puts the base value back to where it was in Cata, and don't think the scaling per point is changed. Should be ok, and if they really wanted to reduce IH's output then it would probably be better to look at EF instead (although the nerf to the 4p T14 has an effect on that already).

The Daybreak change should be good so that you do not feel like procs go to waste because you cast more than 1 HR in a row while HS is on CD.
Edited by Korghal on 4/15/2013 1:28 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
8685
The holy shock change needs to be clarified as that is an odd change. Seems like a set bonus as opposed to a talent change. Not sure where they came up with that one.


You mean the change from 2 second reduction to 1 second? That is a Set Piece Bonus.

....or do you mean the Daybreak change?
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
04/15/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Korghal
Hm? Not sure what you mean by that.


and causes the next Holy Shock to also heal other allies within 10 yards of the target for an amount equal to 75%/150% of the original healing done


Seems like that could be pretty OP depending on cap

i just randomly looked at a friends logs and over a 9 minute fight got 58 daybreak procs. Which evens out to 1 every 9.3 sec. In that same time he had 86 HS that averaged out at 24,585 each. Depending on the cap it could be insane.

Unless i am totally reading this wrong.
Edited by Sadiemay on 4/15/2013 1:40 PM PDT
It refers to the Daybreak change? Holy Shock will heal allies for 75% with 1 stack of Daybreak, 150% with two stacks. I'll assume that it divides the healing equally just like the current daybreak does. If so, it is technically a nerf to daybreak as the current one does 100% healing (split among targets); but it compensates by favoring HR casts in a row when HS is still in CD.
Edited by Korghal on 4/15/2013 1:39 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
I'll assume that it divides the healing equally just like the current daybreak does


It doesn't say that it just says "allies" which is what made me wonder.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Badly thought out. It's not like we can't already generate HoPo as fast as we need to. Yes, 6 sec HS is sluggish. It was sluggish before I got T14 4pc, and it's sluggish now that I've gone to T14 2pc / T15 2pc.

As for the Mastery drop. It's not going to make either of the other secondary stats more valuable (Haste or Crit), which is the root of problem. Mastery is point for point, just better than haste, and with mana caps, we just can't afford to invest in it. Crit on the other hand has potential.... but it starts off with a slight base % disadvantage, and it's still going to generate mastery. If we actually had an array of damage dealing effects, crit would become valuable just because we could double dip.

Making daybreak stackable, is nice since there will be times that you HR, while HS is still coming off cooldown. You have the choice of riding it out, swapping to single target, or burning a low power LoD. Now, HR becomes a "more viable" option, since you don't waste a daybreak proc, and it stacks with the T15 2 pc bonus.

None of this however addresses Hpal raw power, nor the T15 4 piece.

I see what they are trying to do with the set bonus (t14) change, but that only slightly modifies the viability when comparing the two sets, and honestly not that much. More Int can be bypassed with more HoPo, and so can more Spirit. Mastery is generated off every frigging heal, so it doesn't matter what they do stat wise, and much of the T15 stuff required reforging anyways (both BP and hands don't have mastery by default)....

As for the T15 4 pc.. Make it viable and the T14 issue goes away. But as it stands now, it relies on beacon swapping to even be considered, and you are just burning GCDs for a low output spell with a modifier on it.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Nerf tier 14 4 set to the ground and pallies fall right back into line.

Edit: Now that I think about it, making haste decrease the cooldown of holy shock would be nice, if properly tuned and capped at say... 4 secs?


The 4 piece made it so we could cast it on a 4 sec CD.....
90 Blood Elf Priest
7845
The 4 piece made it so we could cast it on a 4 sec CD.....


Obviously. But there's no cut in stone rule that says that it can only be tuned to that number. Maybe make haste a bit more attractive that way if it's not a baseline effect or tier set bonus. With the added effect that you won't need to keep the tier 14 set in order to increase your holy power generation.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
04/15/2013 01:46 PMPosted by Fereveralone
The 4 piece made it so we could cast it on a 4 sec CD.....


Obviously. But there's no cut in stone rule that says that it can only be tuned to that number. Maybe make haste a bit more attractive that way if it's not a baseline effect or tier set bonus. With the added effect that you won't need to keep the tier 14 set in order to increase your holy power generation.


HS on 4 sec wasn't about HoPo generation. It was about smoothing out the "rotation." CS is a 4 sec spell. Everything else is either instant or 2 secs for the most part. HS being 6 secs just made it clunky. It made it nice when dealing with other abilities like EF, which allowed us to blanket the team.

I've given up my T14, but I can still generate HoPo fine... It's just not as smooth as it was. That smoothness led to efficiency, which in turn led to better over all play.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15650
Too many kids spoke up wanting the t14 4pc to be baseline and got us all forced into the new, pathetic, weak t15 2/4pc. GG guys, GG.
Edited by Brian on 4/15/2013 2:34 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
21745
cool i look forward to using t15 garbage
90 Tauren Paladin
0
Too many kids spoke up wanting the t14 4pc to be baseline and got us all forced into the new, pathetic, weak t15 2/4pc. GG guys, GG.


You make it sound like Blizzard isn't aware of gear usage, or that there isn't something wrong when a new tier set is weaker in virtually all cases to the previous tier of the same content level (483 vs. 502, 496/522, 509/535). Or that a tier set (T-14) being at least twice as strong as the set bonus of every other healer is the right and proper thing.

Something needed to be done, and reverting the bonus back to where it was firmly brings it into line. It'll also come at the same time that we're able to upgrade T-15 again for VP, which means it's not a case of 517 vs. 535, but 517 vs. 543.

The mastery change is surprising, mostly because it's so minor. I didn't think Blizzard often did anything in small chunks. A 1.5% nerf to our healing says we're a tiny bit too strong, but still pretty well where we should be.

Of course, it's all still PTR, and there are still weeks yet until the patch. It may move back into the other direction with feedback.

EDIT: But T-15 is indeed filled with the uncool, like wiping on a boss at 50k health.
Edited by Wards on 4/15/2013 5:21 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
12860
As for the Mastery drop. It's not going to make either of the other secondary stats more valuable (Haste or Crit), which is the root of problem. Mastery is point for point, just better than haste, and with mana caps, we just can't afford to invest in it. Crit on the other hand has potential.... but it starts off with a slight base % disadvantage, and it's still going to generate mastery. If we actually had an array of damage dealing effects, crit would become valuable just because we could double dip.


I feel an easy way to make Haste more valuable for Holy Paladins would be to implement Sanctity of Battle for Holy Paladins and allow it to reduce Holy Shock's cooldown in proportion to the amount of Haste you have. Critical strike rating is a bit more iffy, but Holy Paladins have had modifiers in the past to increase its usefulness. (Illumination)

As for the set bonus changes, I don't mind seeing it nerfed as long as Blizzard is aware of why so many Holy Paladins used it and, more importantly, found it more fun. It really helped emphasize how lacking Holy Power generation is for the spec and how increasing Holy Power generation inherently makes the spec more fun to play.

I see the Daybreak change as a nerf. Assuming you move away from your T14 four set bonus and Holy Shock is back to a 6 second cooldown, you will only have enough time to use two Holy Radiance casts in-between Holy Shock cooldowns if you empower one with Infusion of Light. Otherwise, hard-casting two Holy Radiance will result in clipping Holy Shock's cooldown and thus results in a loss of healing efficiency over time.
90 Draenei Paladin
16080
04/15/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Deadsecsi
HS on 4 sec wasn't about HoPo generation. It was about smoothing out the "rotation." CS is a 4 sec spell. Everything else is either instant or 2 secs for the most part. HS being 6 secs just made it clunky. It made it nice when dealing with other abilities like EF, which allowed us to blanket the team.


It was about a lot of things. 4 second Shock meant more mobility, more mana efficiency, more Holy Power, more Daybreaks. It affected virtually every aspect of healing.


The mastery change is surprising, mostly because it's so minor. I didn't think Blizzard often did anything in small chunks. A 1.5% nerf to our healing says we're a tiny bit too strong, but still pretty well where we should be.

The Mastery nerf affects scaling too; it's not a 1.5% nerf to Mastery, it's a 17% nerf.

Some of that will be made up with less overheal from Eternal Flame though (and from various other abilities, from us and other healers).

I see the Daybreak change as a nerf. Assuming you move away from your T14 four set bonus and Holy Shock is back to a 6 second cooldown, you will only have enough time to use two Holy Radiance casts in-between Holy Shock cooldowns if you empower one with Infusion of Light. Otherwise, hard-casting two Holy Radiance will result in clipping Holy Shock's cooldown and thus results in a loss of healing efficiency over time.

What were you going to cast in that period anyway though?
Edited by Tarski on 4/16/2013 3:14 AM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
10900
The Mastery nerf affects scaling too; it's not a 1.5% nerf to Mastery, it's a 17% nerf.


This saddens me quite a bit. I was okay losing 2% off the base mastery but it affects scaling? That's quite a bit of overkill right there. The nerf to the t14 was quite enough in my opinion. Nerfing mastery further, especailly with the craptastic t15, is going to be a culture shock once live hits.

The Daybreak change was actually a nice one, there have been plenty of times that I've wished for that exact thing to happen.
90 Tauren Paladin
0
Yeah, nerfing the scaling too? I'm glad you pointed that out. So... someone with 36% Mastery will drop down to 30%, and since there's usually very little overheal with Mastery, a Paladin can expect to lose between 4-6% hps depending upon their personal overheal average. A paladin using T-14 will drop another 5% or so. Not a minor nerf after all, then.

Holy Radiance change I still like, but I think that one might be a nerf to many paladins in overall mana efficiency, if a potential throughput increase.
Edited by Wards on 4/16/2013 7:33 AM PDT
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