Can DPS shaman get a solid escape mechanic?

90 Orc Shaman
6990
To be clear (though it will not matter to most readers) I'm asking this only for the 2 DPS shaman specs.

Every DPS spec in the game except shaman has solid escape and mitigation tools. Dispersion, Heroic Leap, Defensive Stance, Vanish, Monks 1 billion things that they do, Bubble, etc...

In the current game DPS shaman are the only DPS that do not have any inherit escape mechanic and no inherit damage reduction either. This seems like a huge disparity and is one of the reasons that DPS shaman have such a hard time in PVP -- there is no reason not to tunnel the shaman 100% of the time.

In the incoming patch, the new LS glyph will give us a 10% reduction but we have to use a glyph slot for it and we have none to really give up. No other DPS has to glyph for their baseline damage reduction and most have more than 10%.

Shamanistic Rage isn't even close to good enough and can be hard countered easily (oh wait, I know - DPS shaman rarely eat a blanket silence - sigh). That is all we really got. The other choices in tier 1 add seconds to our life not enough to matter.

We need a solid escape mechanic.
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92 Goblin Shaman
8930
You forgot to mention the upcoming 10% damage reduction glyph isnt always on like every other passive damage reduction in the game.

The glyph requires you to proc lightning shield in order to gain that 10% damage reduction for 6 seconds. A frost mage can still swap to you and drop most of you HP before the glyph even has a chance to work. A raid boss will still do its massive damage hit, and THEN you will start receiving a damage reduction for a few seconds. The dev that designed this glyph should be forced to wear a dunce cap for a month, or better yet, forced to play an ele shaman for a month.

Yay, for being unique! I just wish all the "unique" things shaman got, didnt all come with massive unneeded penalties.
Edited by Angrysteel on 4/19/2013 4:54 AM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
16115
Angry from my understanding it will be up 100% of the time except for the initial hit. Since part of lightning shield procs off of you taking damage already.
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90 Orc Shaman
6990
Angry from my understanding it will be up 100% of the time except for the initial hit. Since part of lightning shield procs off of you taking damage already.


It still isn't as good as a full time reduction, consider that not every form of damage trigger lightning shield and a lot of times the first attack is the largest attack. (I'm not sure that anyone knows yet if the dmg reduction comes in after or before the first hit, but either way my first point on not every damage form causing shield triggers is still valid).

It should be on 100% of the time and it shouldn't be a glyph.

All of this is really a distraction though because even with the damage reduction there still isn't any reason not to tunnel the DPS shaman into the ground. 10% is not going to change that.
Edited by Drmist on 4/19/2013 6:04 AM PDT
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92 Goblin Shaman
8930
Angry from my understanding it will be up 100% of the time except for the initial hit. Since part of lightning shield procs off of you taking damage already.


What? Yes, it will stay up if you consistently take damage, but thats not always the case.

Example: Heroic Horridon > Dire Call at the end of the encounter. Hunters, Locks, Boomkins, Shadow Priests, etc, etc will all have that 10-15% passive damage reduction always on. The Shaman, while having to waste a glyph slot for what is baseline to most of these classes, will NOT receive that 10% damage reduction from Dire Call. Ya, awesome, we get 10% less damage taken for 6 seconds after that massive hit, but who cares?

Thats just one example, but it applies to multiple raid mechanics. And in pvp, you dont gain that 10% damage reduction until after the big hits have already landed on a swap.

Its plain bad design, and being a glyph ontop of bad design is just overly stupid.
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90 Troll Mage
15205
What? Yes, it will stay up if you consistently take damage, but thats not always the case.


Yes it is always the case that it will be up 100% of the time except for the initial hit and if it drops then the next initial hit...

And then thats just based off of an assumption as i have not tested it on the ptr, another possibility is that it procs the instant you take damage and includes that in it.

Its bad design in your assumption of how it will work, verify how it works then start complaining.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13975
And then thats just based off of an assumption as i have not tested it on the ptr, another possibility is that it procs the instant you take damage and includes that in it.


it doesn't include the damaging attack that procs lightning shield, doesn't work with UF:WF static shock procs either

The problem is the hits it needs to cover are usually those first big hits they're talking about, and the fact it is "Yet another shaman glyph with a stupid limiter taking up yet another glyph slot that should be base linebecause we don't have 6 of those already"
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90 Orc Shaman
6990
Its bad design in your assumption of how it will work, verify how it works then start complaining.


When other shadown priests, boomies, etc... have to glyph for their baseline damage reduction then I'd expect folks to not complain about it. Until that time its just an imbalance.

DPS shaman have no hard core escape/reset mechanism. If anything the LS glyph should be way more than 10% (at least in PVP).
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
Seems like the glyph was just whatever replacement they could come up with since they can't just delete the glyph since people have it in their bags / spellbook. I really can't think of anything to replace it with effectively but it shouldn't exist in this form. The DR needs to just be baseline.
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90 Orc Shaman
6655
we have consistently played the role of punching bag, and that's where they want us, so I wouldn't hold my breath for anything amazing and catch free... my experience in wow has been playing nosebleed specs (i get attached to them i guess), and I can tell you, adequate changes never come, if they do, its a small pointless change and it takes them months upon months to implement it. I also don't think its great when they just brute force a global stat with a % here and there it seems a lazy way to balance and its missing the point of where our problems are. you'll notice when being interviewed, they always use words like we "feel" and "think" or "my spider senses tell me..." this class is OK. nothing about hard facts that we can all see on data-mining sites and from our own experiences.

The problem isn't really our class either, there's no finesse in wow anymore, the basic strat is: load damage cd's tunnel and toggle between your silence, stun and alternate cc until dead. rinse repeat. ele shamans are just particularly susceptible to this.

A long time ago someone from bliz (GC i think) said that they didn't want too many abilities that make you lose control of your character because it is not an enjoyable way to play this game. I wish they reconsidered that point T.T
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04/19/2013 06:17 AMPosted by Angrysteel
Angry from my understanding it will be up 100% of the time except for the initial hit. Since part of lightning shield procs off of you taking damage already.


What? Yes, it will stay up if you consistently take damage, but thats not always the case.

Example: Heroic Horridon > Dire Call at the end of the encounter. Hunters, Locks, Boomkins, Shadow Priests, etc, etc will all have that 10-15% passive damage reduction always on. The Shaman, while having to waste a glyph slot for what is baseline to most of these classes, will NOT receive that 10% damage reduction from Dire Call. Ya, awesome, we get 10% less damage taken for 6 seconds after that massive hit, but who cares?

Thats just one example, but it applies to multiple raid mechanics. And in pvp, you dont gain that 10% damage reduction until after the big hits have already landed on a swap.

Its plain bad design, and being a glyph ontop of bad design is just overly stupid.


This guy gets it.

It really baffles me as to why we can't just have the innate DR, like the other hybrid casters have. Druids get DR in Moonkin form, SPriests get DR in Shadow Form. Why can't Elemental Shaman have it?

Is it because we can use shields? Mail armor? Armor only helps against physical damage, and SPriests get a spell that increases armor if I remember correctly, and Moonkin form increases base armor. Unless I'm mistaken, both Moonkin and SPriest have roughly the same amount of DR from armor as an Ele Shaman does. Please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Having a shield is really the only reason that I can come up with as to why we can't have innate DR like the other hybrid casters.

All three classes can self heal, but heck, at least Moonkin and Shadow have a HoT. And please please nobody saying Healing Stream totem. It has 5hp, so it can be killed, and it also doesn't always heal you, but sometimes a nearby ally.

Priests have PW:S, Dispersion, AoE fear.

Druids are immune to poly, and can break snares/roots by shifting. Also, symbiosis, and Cyclone.

What do Shaman get? We can get a talent for a damage shield, but then while it's active, we're locked out of our other earth totems. We can get a talent for an AoE root, which again, locks us out of our other earth totems.

What do we have outside of talents?

Hex? It has a 45 second CD (35 glyphed). It breaks after one LvB. The target is still in full control of their character, so it's basically a glorified silence/disarm, but only while active. The target can still LoS you, or if you were using it defensively to run away, they can still chase after you.

Thunderstorm? 22.5 sec CD (17.5 glyphed). All melee gap closers have a CD within 3 seconds of Thunderstorm, unless you glyph it. Of course, Shaman don't exactly have the free glyph slot... but that's another issue entirely. Thunderstorm often doesn't work due to terrain. People can just stand on the side of the Shaman that is closer to the top of a hill, and Thunderstorm will send them a whopping 5 yards, if that.

Shamanistic Rage? 15 seconds of 30% DR, and if glyphed, it will remove Magic debuffs. This simply isn't enough with the high burst that is today's WoW PvP. Not to mention, outside of talents, that's the only oh sh*t button we have.

Shaman just don't have the quality of survivability tools that the other hybrids have. Anybody that would argue otherwise is delusional.
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90 Undead Death Knight
5020
Every DPS spec in the game except shaman has solid escape and mitigation tools


What do I have?
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90 Undead Warlock
5620
whats my ret's escape mechanic?
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04/24/2013 10:13 AMPosted by Messorem
Every DPS spec in the game except shaman has solid escape and mitigation tools


What do I have?


Blood Presence, AMS, Death Strike?

Maybe you could argue that a DK doesn't have as much when it comes to defensive CD, but DKs aren't exactly doing poorly right now, y'know? People still pick the Ele sham to kill first, over the DK.

whats my ret's escape mechanic?


Really?

...

...

Really?

Bubble? Freedom? You have better CC?
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And then thats just based off of an assumption as i have not tested it on the ptr, another possibility is that it procs the instant you take damage and includes that in it.



If it procced the instant you took damage, and included the initial hit, then it wouldn't need to proc at all.
Edited by Mungoh on 4/24/2013 12:11 PM PDT
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90 Undead Death Knight
5020
Blood Presence, AMS, Death Strike?

Maybe you could argue that a DK doesn't have as much when it comes to defensive CD, but DKs aren't exactly doing poorly right now, y'know? People still pick the Ele sham to kill first, over the DK.


None of those let you escape, I'll give you BP but it takes away a fair amount of our damage, and death strike heal 7% HP and you have to be in melee range. AMS isn't as good as you make it out to be.
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90 Undead Warlock
5620


whats my ret's escape mechanic?


Really?

...

...

Really?

Bubble? Freedom? You have better CC?


I was being sarcastic but if you really want me to list your escape mechanics:

Ghost wolf GCD

Tremor totem not only breaks them out of cc but their allies as well 1min cd

Earthgrab totem + call of elements 30 sec 3min cd

Astral Shift and Shamanic Rage 2m and 1m CD

Earthbind totem 30 sec cd
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Really?

...

...

Really?

Bubble? Freedom? You have better CC?


I was being sarcastic but if you really want me to list your escape mechanics:

Ghost wolf GCD

Tremor totem not only breaks them out of cc but their allies as well 1min cd

Earthgrab totem + call of elements 30 sec 3min cd

Astral Shift and Shamanic Rage 2m and 1m CD

Earthbind totem 30 sec cd


Ghost Wolf can be dispelled, doesn't break snares/roots, and you only keeps you from going below 100%.

Tremor totem: Useful against three classes (Warrior, Warlock, Priest). Still not exactly an escape mechanic, as much as it is anti-CC.

Earthgrab is the talented version of Earthbind, and since it's tied to a totem, you can't use any other earth totem while active unless you want to sacrifice your snare/root. That means no Tremor Totem, no Earth Elemental, and no Stone Bulwark Totem. Although Stone Bulwark sucks as a talent for the very reason that it prevents using other earth totems. Oh, and those totems have 5 hp. A level 1 can get rid of my snare.

Astral Shift and Sham Rage don't stack additively, so you actually get something like 56-ish percent reduction if used in conjunction. But that's only for 6 seconds, once every two minutes, if you took Astral Shift. Honestly, for only 6 seconds of DR, Astral Shift should have a 1 min CD.

But AS and SR aren't escape mechanics. They aren't good oh sh*t buttons. They aren't get out of jail free cards. They aren't Ice Block, Dispersion, Deterrence, Druid shifting, Teleport, Blink, Bubble, etc...

No spammable CC like Fear, Cyclone, Polymorph. Granted SPriests don't have spammable fear, but their fear hits multiple targets, and they aren't exactly doing poorly right now.

Shaman have Hex. With a 45 second CD. And the target can still move their character. And the damage threshold for it to break is pretty damn low.

I still don't see why people are so anti Shaman buffs. It's not like DPS Shaman are rolling all over the place like Mages, or SPriests. Never see any Nerf Ele threads.
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90 Undead Warlock
5620


I was being sarcastic but if you really want me to list your escape mechanics:

Ghost wolf GCD

Tremor totem not only breaks them out of cc but their allies as well 1min cd

Earthgrab totem + call of elements 30 sec 3min cd

Astral Shift and Shamanic Rage 2m and 1m CD

Earthbind totem 30 sec cd


Ghost Wolf can be dispelled, doesn't break snares/roots, and you only keeps you from going below 100%.

Tremor totem: Useful against three classes (Warrior, Warlock, Priest). Still not exactly an escape mechanic, as much as it is anti-CC.

Earthgrab is the talented version of Earthbind, and since it's tied to a totem, you can't use any other earth totem while active unless you want to sacrifice your snare/root. That means no Tremor Totem, no Earth Elemental, and no Stone Bulwark Totem. Although Stone Bulwark sucks as a talent for the very reason that it prevents using other earth totems. Oh, and those totems have 5 hp. A level 1 can get rid of my snare.

Astral Shift and Sham Rage don't stack additively, so you actually get something like 56-ish percent reduction if used in conjunction. But that's only for 6 seconds, once every two minutes, if you took Astral Shift. Honestly, for only 6 seconds of DR, Astral Shift should have a 1 min CD.

But AS and SR aren't escape mechanics. They aren't good oh sh*t buttons. They aren't get out of jail free cards. They aren't Ice Block, Dispersion, Deterrence, Druid shifting, Teleport, Blink, Bubble, etc...

No spammable CC like Fear, Cyclone, Polymorph. Granted SPriests don't have spammable fear, but their fear hits multiple targets, and they aren't exactly doing poorly right now.

Shaman have Hex. With a 45 second CD. And the target can still move their character. And the damage threshold for it to break is pretty damn low.

I still don't see why people are so anti Shaman buffs. It's not like DPS Shaman are rolling all over the place like Mages, or SPriests. Never see any Nerf Ele threads.


mentioned your escape mechanics. Rather you like them or not or their weaknesses doesn't not change the fact that they are escape mechanics.

pvp has never been about 1 on 1 anyways. build a comp around tour weakness and your fine.
Edited by Malíx on 4/24/2013 4:24 PM PDT
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mentioned your escape mechanics. Rather you like them or not or their weaknesses doesn't not change the fact that they are escape mechanics.

pvp has never been about 1 on 1 anyways. build a comp around tour weakness and your fine.


Except this whole thread is about us DPS Shaman asking for BETTER abilities, because the ones we have aren't good enough compared to everybody elses. Why take an Ele Sham when you could take an SPriest, Mage, Boomkin, Warlock?

The problem is that Shaman are too reliant on having the right teammates. I understand that the game isn't 1v1, and isn't balanced as such, but what about those times when your healer just ate a full Polymorph, with no trinket, and you're about to die? Other classes have abilities that allow them to stop the damage entirely, or CC attackers long enough for that Poly to fade from your healer.

Why is the strategy always train the Shaman? Because the Shaman dies the easiest, that's why. It's no secret that Ele is weak in PvP. Half the threads on this forum have somebody from another class saying something like, "At least you're/we're not Ele."

Again, nobody is posting nerf Shaman threads.

After Hex, a Shaman has nothing of the sort outside of talents. I've already discussed why Hex is inadequate, and I feel I've adequately explained the shortcomings of our other abilities.

I'm not going to respond to you any more. You aren't offering anything of value to this thread.
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