Can DPS shaman get a solid escape mechanic?

90 Undead Warlock
5620


mentioned your escape mechanics. Rather you like them or not or their weaknesses doesn't not change the fact that they are escape mechanics.

pvp has never been about 1 on 1 anyways. build a comp around tour weakness and your fine.


Except this whole thread is about us DPS Shaman asking for BETTER abilities, because the ones we have aren't good enough compared to everybody elses. Why take an Ele Sham when you could take an SPriest, Mage, Boomkin, Warlock?

The problem is that Shaman are too reliant on having the right teammates. I understand that the game isn't 1v1, and isn't balanced as such, but what about those times when your healer just ate a full Polymorph, with no trinket, and you're about to die? Other classes have abilities that allow them to stop the damage entirely, or CC attackers long enough for that Poly to fade from your healer.

Why is the strategy always train the Shaman? Because the Shaman dies the easiest, that's why. It's no secret that Ele is weak in PvP. Half the threads on this forum have somebody from another class saying something like, "At least you're/we're not Ele."

Again, nobody is posting nerf Shaman threads.

After Hex, a Shaman has nothing of the sort outside of talents. I've already discussed why Hex is inadequate, and I feel I've adequately explained the shortcomings of our other abilities.

I'm not going to respond to you any more. You aren't offering anything of value to this thread.


Again your class is fine. If ppl are training the shaman and its working than it means you have a weak comp. Ill say it again pvp has never been about 1v1 and there are plenty of comps that dps shamans thrive on. Adding everything you want would make those comps overpowered.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
3605


Except this whole thread is about us DPS Shaman asking for BETTER abilities, because the ones we have aren't good enough compared to everybody elses. Why take an Ele Sham when you could take an SPriest, Mage, Boomkin, Warlock?

The problem is that Shaman are too reliant on having the right teammates. I understand that the game isn't 1v1, and isn't balanced as such, but what about those times when your healer just ate a full Polymorph, with no trinket, and you're about to die? Other classes have abilities that allow them to stop the damage entirely, or CC attackers long enough for that Poly to fade from your healer.

Why is the strategy always train the Shaman? Because the Shaman dies the easiest, that's why. It's no secret that Ele is weak in PvP. Half the threads on this forum have somebody from another class saying something like, "At least you're/we're not Ele."

Again, nobody is posting nerf Shaman threads.

After Hex, a Shaman has nothing of the sort outside of talents. I've already discussed why Hex is inadequate, and I feel I've adequately explained the shortcomings of our other abilities.

I'm not going to respond to you any more. You aren't offering anything of value to this thread.


Again your class is fine. If ppl are training the shaman and its working than it means you have a weak comp. Ill say it again pvp has never been about 1v1 and there are plenty of comps that dps shamans thrive on. Adding everything you want would make those comps overpowered.


No. We aren't fine and the fact a warlock has the audacity to say so adds insult to an already grevious injury. Tired of us grounding your chaos bolts eh?
Edited by Procellá on 4/25/2013 1:42 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
14410


One baseline CC breaks, another two from talents, magic debuff immunity for 7 seconds every 45 with a notable amount of damage absorption from it. A very short CD sprint with snare suppressant, and since DK's are more concerned with closing gaps than opening them, a 25 second CD gap closer that can be used as many times as possible within 3 seconds after each use as well as the option for an AoE one.

EDIT: Last time I played my DK actively was in cata where Lichborne was baseline. Fixed my mistake.


We have a lot of CC breakers because we have next to no CC. And we still have the worst survivability in the game.


Did i really just read that DK's have the worst surv. in the game?
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325


We have a lot of CC breakers because we have next to no CC. And we still have the worst survivability in the game.


Did i really just read that DK's have the worst surv. in the game?


While DKs certainly don't have the worst survivability, what they have isn't exactly great. They don't exactly need awesome survivability tools though because they can do so much damage. An RL friend of mine plays a DK, and he does often say that he wishes he had more survivability. But every BG I play with him, he tops damage meters, and has 15+ killing blows.

This isn't a position you see an Ele or Enh in.

If I could kill somebody as fast as a DK, I wouldn't care that my survivability sucks. But outside of Ascendance, I have to rely completely on RNG to get a kill because of Lava Surge, and the way Mastery works for Ele. Which is your spells have an X% chance to cast a duplicate spell free of cost for 75% of the damage of the first spell.

Lava Burst only hits players for 40k-50k damage, and has an 8 sec CD. Lava Surge procs on Flame Shock damage, and resets the CD of Lava Burst and makes it instant cast. Ideally, you DoT up everything you can with Flame Shock, and then hope you get a nice string of procs to pump LvB into your main target. Flame Shock has a 5 sec CD, though. Which it also shares with Frost Shock, and Earth Shock. Oh, and Frost Shock has a 6 sec CD.

So if I need to snare that Warrior that is beating on me, that's 6 seconds where I'm not going to get any Lava Surge procs, and thus doing close to zero damage.

This is how an Ele does burst outside of Ascendance.

There are a few conditions that must first be met.
1) Flame Shock on target
2) 7 stacks of Lightning Shield
3) Lava Surge must proc
4) Shock spells off CD

Now here's what the Ele does. Once they see that Lava Surge proc, they cast the following:

Unleash Elements > Elemental Blast > Instant Lava Burst > Earth Shock

UE increases damage of next fire spell by 30%. It will increase the damage for both EB, and the instant LvB because both will fire at the same time. The Earth Shock damage itself isn't much, maybe only about 15k, but the 7x Lightning Shield charges get dumped into the target for extra damage.

Here's the kicker for that burst... Lava Surge lasts 6 seconds. If at any point before you get that Lava Burst off you get hit with any sort of CC, or your target gains LoS or outranges you, you lose that burst, because that Lava Surge proc fades away.

So you have to notice the proc which lasts 6 seconds, stop whatever you're doing, cast UE, then EB, then LvB. By the time the UE finishes casting, there's often only about 2 seconds left on your Lava Surge proc.

Whereas Fingers of Frost lasts 15 seconds for Mages, and other similar abilities for other casters last at least 10 seconds as well. I think SPriests may have a proc with a talent that lasts 8. Of course, this is because of the nature of Lava Surge, where you CAN get 5 procs back to back, and when that happens, you feel awesome. But when it doesn't happen, you aren't putting out any significant pressure.

Basically the arguments I've seen so far are, "You get trained because Ascendance. You can't have defensives because Ascedance."

I dare any one of you to roll an Ele, and try to use Ascendance against any half competent team. Tell me how that goes.

Again your class is fine. If ppl are training the shaman and its working than it means you have a weak comp. Ill say it again pvp has never been about 1v1 and there are plenty of comps that dps shamans thrive on. Adding everything you want would make those comps overpowered.


Plenty of comps, you say? What about SPriest, Mage, Boomkin, or Warlock? More viable comps for them than for Ele.

And still, Ele has to be pretty much babysat the entire time. I understand very well that the game isn't balanced around 1v1. But the Ele and their partners still have to work harder for the same results than they would have if they had chosen another caster.
Reply Quote
70 Tauren Warrior
850
"There are two schools of thought: make PvP fun with fewer specs vs. get all 34 in there and embrace chaos. We don't have an official stance yet and try to keep in touch with how the community feels." - Blizzard

Something tells me that elemental shaman are in that grey area. It's one of the reasons I'm afraid to invest to much time in mine. If they decide not to "embrace chaos", my elemental shaman would just be a waste since they will surely choose resto as the good shaman PvP spec.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325
"There are two schools of thought: make PvP fun with fewer specs vs. get all 34 in there and embrace chaos. We don't have an official stance yet and try to keep in touch with how the community feels." - Blizzard

Something tells me that elemental shaman are in that grey area. It's one of the reasons I'm afraid to invest to much time in mine. If they decide not to "embrace chaos", my elemental shaman would just be a waste since they will surely choose resto as the good shaman PvP spec.


Sounds about right to me.

That makes Mungoh a sad Shaman.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
"There are two schools of thought: make PvP fun with fewer specs vs. get all 34 in there and embrace chaos. We don't have an official stance yet and try to keep in touch with how the community feels." - Blizzard

Something tells me that elemental shaman are in that grey area. It's one of the reasons I'm afraid to invest to much time in mine. If they decide not to "embrace chaos", my elemental shaman would just be a waste since they will surely choose resto as the good shaman PvP spec.


Sounds about right to me.

That makes Mungoh a sad Shaman.


I started working on my monk again. They seem to be getting attention now and will in the future since they're the new class. Always good to have a fall back.
Reply Quote
I don't know if you're referring to me or not, but if you are, I asked several questions in my original post.
Any more arguments from people about why Ele shouldn't have an oh sh*t button?
We're asking for a defensive CD.


Ok, so in the title of the thread you asked a question and the simple answer is still no. You're not getting anything else of that kind added this expansion.

04/19/2013 04:33 AMPosted by Drmist
In the current game DPS shaman are the only DPS that do not have any inherit escape mechanic and no inherit damage reduction either. This seems like a huge disparity and is one of the reasons that DPS shaman have such a hard time in PVP -- there is no reason not to tunnel the shaman 100% of the time.


A great many class have no "inherit" escape mechanic or "inherit"damage reduction. As a mage where is my damage reduction? Where's the escape mechanic on my DK? It turns out, different classes are different and get different tools.

Lets compare my escape mechanics to yours, shall we? As a Mage I have. . . Blink-- it breaks stuns and roots, but does nothing to fears or any other variety of CC.

You have as a Shaman. . . Tremor Totem-- which removes Fear, Charm, and Sleep effects from not only you, but all Party members-- are those not one, but three kinds of CC's that Mages have no escape mechanic for but you as a Shaman do? Yes, yes they are.

For Damage Reduction you have Shamanistic Rage, which while not a 100% immune like Ice Block does allow you to continue to move, cast, act, and actually improves your offensive abilities since it makes them cost no mana-- is it the same as Ice Block? No, but Ice Block just leaves me sitting there waiting to be killed unless someone else heals me.

You've also got Grounding Totem, Stone Bulwark Totem (or another ability off that tier), and here's the kicker-- You've got Healing Stream and Healing Tide Totems-- two things that actually ADD hit points to you, something that us Mages really do not have.

You can't point to one thing that another class has, say "I want" and then downplay everything you do have as though those things are meaningless and the other classes versions are strictly better than yours while pretending their stuff has no disadvantages.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
Honestly Aldoris, I was going to try and comment on the SR vs Ice Block comparison, but when I saw that you're trying to point out that it is a wonderful ability because it removes the cost of our offensive spells, it's pretty clear you're just here to troll and compare apples and oranges just for the sake of saying anything that pops into your mind.

Just do me a favor, level an elemental shaman, gear it up, and see how well you fare. That's all I can ask you at this point, because I fear if anyone continues a back and forth with you, we'll be hearing how thunderstorm is a superior gap opener than blink because it restores mana despite it failing on a whim.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325
I don't know if you're referring to me or not, but if you are, I asked several questions in my original post.
Any more arguments from people about why Ele shouldn't have an oh sh*t button?
We're asking for a defensive CD.


Ok, so in the title of the thread you asked a question and the simple answer is still no. You're not getting anything else of that kind added this expansion.

04/19/2013 04:33 AMPosted by Drmist
In the current game DPS shaman are the only DPS that do not have any inherit escape mechanic and no inherit damage reduction either. This seems like a huge disparity and is one of the reasons that DPS shaman have such a hard time in PVP -- there is no reason not to tunnel the shaman 100% of the time.


A great many class have no "inherit" escape mechanic or "inherit"damage reduction. As a mage where is my damage reduction? Where's the escape mechanic on my DK? It turns out, different classes are different and get different tools.

Lets compare my escape mechanics to yours, shall we? As a Mage I have. . . Blink-- it breaks stuns and roots, but does nothing to fears or any other variety of CC.

You have as a Shaman. . . Tremor Totem-- which removes Fear, Charm, and Sleep effects from not only you, but all Party members-- are those not one, but three kinds of CC's that Mages have no escape mechanic for but you as a Shaman do? Yes, yes they are.

For Damage Reduction you have Shamanistic Rage, which while not a 100% immune like Ice Block does allow you to continue to move, cast, act, and actually improves your offensive abilities since it makes them cost no mana-- is it the same as Ice Block? No, but Ice Block just leaves me sitting there waiting to be killed unless someone else heals me.

You've also got Grounding Totem, Stone Bulwark Totem (or another ability off that tier), and here's the kicker-- You've got Healing Stream and Healing Tide Totems-- two things that actually ADD hit points to you, something that us Mages really do not have.

You can't point to one thing that another class has, say "I want" and then downplay everything you do have as though those things are meaningless and the other classes versions are strictly better than yours while pretending their stuff has no disadvantages.


Nah, I'm not the one that started this thread. But nice try.

Also, I have a Mage. Less geared than this Shaman. I survive better on the Mage with a pocket healer than I do on the Shaman with a pocket healer. Why? Because Ice Barrier, Blink, Nova, Pet Nova, Poly, Counterspell, RoF, Ice Block.

Oh, and I can kill people more reliably on the Mage. Once a minute I can almost guarantee a kill with Frozen Orb.

But the Mage just isn't as fun to me, so I don't play it as often.

Also HST and HTT don't add hitpoints, unless by add hitpoints you mean they heal. And I've already addressed HST. It doesn't always heal you, and it has 5hp. That's one auto-attack from the enemy healer.

I've got a solution that I'll happily accept that doesn't involve us getting a defensive CD. Reduce the CD on Ascendance to 1 min, and reduce the duration proportionally.

Until then, the argument, "but you can burst," is a crappy argument. Everybody can burst, and some more effectively, as I demonstrated with the video on P2.

Against COMPETENT players, an Ele will always have a harder time than other casters. Competent players kill totems. Competent players CC healers. What does the Mage do when the healer gets CC? Ice Block.

What does the Shaman do? Pray.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14080
04/24/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Vladja
Bubble? Freedom? You have better CC?


dps shamans have a better short cd defensive then rets have. ele can spam hardcasted heals unlike ret. ele shamans have better ways to open gaps then ret, and they have better ways to stop targets then ret.


Ele CAST HEALS are prone to being intrupted and there for locking out any other defensive we have. The totems as spells idea is a 2 edged sword. I kinda understand why they did it but at the same time it was done with out being properly thought out and put into the game. Ghost wolf should have a root break attached to it or be undispellable, the only way i tkeeps you from dropping below 100% speed is to use a Glyph slot.

Kind of funny how our defensives are ALL tied to glyphs and talents and all can be negated very easy. Why is dispersion not purgable? I am sure priests would say it is our escape and should not be purgeable when then why is Ghost wolf? I mean a shammy can not cast spells or drop totems with out popping out of Ghost wolf.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325
04/26/2013 02:58 AMPosted by Lissbanka


dps shamans have a better short cd defensive then rets have. ele can spam hardcasted heals unlike ret. ele shamans have better ways to open gaps then ret, and they have better ways to stop targets then ret.


Ele CAST HEALS are prone to being intrupted and there for locking out any other defensive we have. The totems as spells idea is a 2 edged sword. I kinda understand why they did it but at the same time it was done with out being properly thought out and put into the game. Ghost wolf should have a root break attached to it or be undispellable, the only way i tkeeps you from dropping below 100% speed is to use a Glyph slot.

Kind of funny how our defensives are ALL tied to glyphs and talents and all can be negated very easy. Why is dispersion not purgable? I am sure priests would say it is our escape and should not be purgeable when then why is Ghost wolf? I mean a shammy can not cast spells or drop totems with out popping out of Ghost wolf.


Well said.

Another point about our heals, if we get interrupted casting Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning, we can't heal, since they both share a nature school. What if Shadow got interrupted and couldn't Flash Heal/Renew/PoM/PW:S?

And if you happened to get interrupted during Elemental Blast, you're effectively just silenced for the duration of the lockout, since EB counts for all of our magic schools.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15120
Ele CAST HEALS are prone to being intrupted and there for locking out any other defensive we have


unlike ret, ele has the ability to create distance to hardcast those heals. ret does actually hardcast occasionally, and it obliterates their mana pool, not so much for ele.

04/26/2013 02:58 AMPosted by Lissbanka
Kind of funny how our defensives are ALL tied to glyphs and talents and all can be negated very easy.


melee with no physical damage mitigation cooldown says hi. thats right. ret has no cooldown for physical damage, nada, zero, zilch. zero ways to mitigate physical damage unless they burn a glyph slot.

sham rage is such an amazing cooldown its not even funny.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325

melee with no physical damage mitigation cooldown says hi. thats right. ret has no cooldown for physical damage, nada, zero, zilch. zero ways to mitigate physical damage unless they burn a glyph slot.

sham rage is such an amazing cooldown its not even funny.


You realize Sham Rage is pretty much the exact opposite of the spell that you're talking about, Divine Protection? Shaman has no CD for magical damage unless they burn a glyph slot, and all it does is remove active magic debuffs, not reduce any incoming damage.

40% magic damage reduction for 10 seconds, 1min CD.

30% physical damage reduction for 15 seconds, 1min CD.

And you still have Bubble.

And at least the majority of your heals are instant cast.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15120
You realize Sham Rage is pretty much the exact opposite of the spell that you're talking about, Divine Protection? Shaman has no CD for magical damage unless they burn a glyph slot,


sham rage is 30% flat dr. 1 minute cooldown. glyphable to dispel magic effects. usable while stunned.

divine protection is 40% magical, glyphable for 20% physical. 1 minute cooldown.

And at least the majority of your heals are instant cast.


against a dispel team that's a lot less likely. word of glory doesn't heal for a huge amount, and flash of light is only instant every 18 seconds IF you are not being purge spammed.

And you still have Bubble.


lolbubble. thats not the fight reset mechanic you seem to think it is.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325


lolbubble. thats not the fight reset mechanic you seem to think it is.


Still a better oh sh*t button than I've got.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15120
Still a better oh sh*t button than I've got.


we've been over this. sham rage is better than any defensive a dps paladin has. including bubble.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
6990
Again your class is fine. If ppl are training the shaman and its working than it means you have a weak comp.


Any team (RBG or Arena) that is any good at all will just train them all day. It has nothing to do with the rest of the comp. There is just no better target in the game than a dps shaman. Training the shaman means they do little damage. Training enh means his engine isn't running and he can't even help himself. They have no reset no immunity, nothing. Sit on them, silence them and they go down.

Ill say it again pvp has never been about 1v1


Most everyone in this thread is not talking about 1 v 1. It is a typical response but sry doesn't work.

and there are plenty of comps that dps shamans thrive on.


So I guess you can point us to some rated arena and rated BG stats that show how well DPS shaman are doing? I mean if there are 'plenty' of comps available and DPS shaman are so viable then that should be easy. I'm waiting...

we've been over this. sham rage is better than any defensive a dps paladin has. including bubble.


1 rogue worth his salt makes sham rage useless. Throw in a mage or SP and the entire ability might as well not exist. If they would simply allow it to work while silenced then it'd be fine and on par, until then it has such a major weakness that is very simple to counter (and it happens all the time).
Edited by Drmist on 4/26/2013 2:55 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15120
1 rogue worth his salt makes sham rage useless


1 rogue worth his salt makes all defenses useless. thats a problem with rogues, not with shamans.
either hes going to garrote you, in which case you kite away, or hes going to cheap shot you, in which case you can sham rage.

04/26/2013 02:52 PMPosted by Drmist
If they would simply allow it to work while silenced then it'd be fine and on par,


i can't use divine protection while silenced, and i can't use it while stunned either, and i certainly can't use it to clear magical debuffs.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14325
1 rogue worth his salt makes all defenses useless. thats a problem with rogues, not with shamans.
either hes going to garrote you, in which case you kite away, or hes going to cheap shot you, in which case you can sham rage.


Except he's actually going to do both at the same time, because of Subterfuge. You can still Bubble while you and your healer are both garroted, and you're in a smoke bomb. But yes, more a problem with rogues. I'll happily trade you SR for Bubble.

And LOL at the idea that you're going to kite a rogue, as an Ele Sham even if he only opens with garrote.

i can't use divine protection while silenced, and i can't use it while stunned either, and i certainly can't use it to clear magical debuffs.


Takes a glyph to clear the debuffs, just like you need a glyph to get the physical reduction. You can Bubble while silenced, though.

Once again. Let me be very clear about what we're asking for. We're asking for an oh sh*t button. If you really think Bubble doesn't count as a good oh sh*t button, or that Shamanstic Rage is better than Bubble, then I'm done arguing with you, because you're obviously a troll.
Edited by Mungoh on 4/26/2013 6:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]