The Alliance: Giving in to our Troll lords

99 Troll Hunter
13620
04/17/2013 01:16 PMPosted by Quirnheim
The Alliance was losing the war up until mid-MoP, where it's become more of a stalemate.

How? All the Horde gained was Southshore and arguably Azshara since Azshara wasn't Alliance land.

The Horde was pushed out of Ashenvale and Gilneas. In fact, the only reason we weren't pushed halfway out of Silverpine is because Sylvanas pulled that stunt with Crowley.

We lost Stonetalon, Garrosh disbanded the army there leaving nothing but Sun Rock Retreat behind.

Meanwhile, the Alliance led a very successful campaign through the Barrens, and if it weren't for the Cataclysm, would have went and taken down Crossroads (An NPC says this), and were siegeing Mulgore.

The Alliance was also placing troops in Durotar, at Tiragarde Keep and in the canyon south of Sen'jin. The quest states that, even though the player's contributions help, they don't have spare troops to deal with the problem.

The Alliance outright attacks Orgrimmar in Azshara, but is thwarted by the player.

The Alliance neutralizes Stonard and claims the Swamp of Sorrows.

So we go into Tides of War, the Horde successfully breaks the Siege on Mulgore and takes down Northwatch, but after Theramore's fall Northwatch is retaken and Orgrimmar is attacked again.

How were they NOT winning?
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2 Undead Warrior
0
You don't see any of that !@#$.

What part of that aren't you understanding?

Ashenvale is still in flames, being deforested and the like.

Stonetalon was an Alliance defeat because most of the army died there as well as having the Horde drop that bomb onto the druid school.

The Barrens? Now you're grasping. Hawthorne dead, Bael Modan destroyed? %^-*, even Twinbraid says at the end of the quests that "the situation is out of control" and the Alliance were going to lose their foothold immediately after that.

Durotar? All dead now.

Stonard is still there, in game. No phasing done to show that change.

The entire Alliance fleet is wiped out, Theramore is destroyed, so is Fort Triumph and Northwatch, and you're calling that a victory? The Alliance was barely able to hang on by the skin of it's teeth to the ruins of Northwatch.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
You don't see any of that !@#$.

What part of that aren't you understanding?

That is exactly what I said I understand.

I said, I know it's not well represented.

That does not change the fact that it's canon.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14280
If you are claiming that the Alliance wins are in the books then you are right. We beat Garrosh in a fight in Ashenvale but they never say if it is permanent. It is a stalemate at best in Gilneas with Sylvanas having the capability to go back and bug bomb it again to kill what few Worgen remain. The great gate isn't really a big obstacle, it's made of wood. If the Alliance was going to push into Mulgore. Then why haven't they already? Besides, that "option" was wiped out in Tides. Tol'Barad could easily be a staging site for the Horde of they wanted to wipe out Stormwind and even in Tides, the Horde somehow had enough ships that they were blockading huge Alliance posts like in Feralas
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
04/17/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Felradin
We beat Garrosh in a fight in Ashenvale but they never say if it is permanent.

It is. Wolfheart happens before quest content, and in quest content the Alliance player literally undoes everything the Horde player does.

In fact, the Horde player stops two sieges at Splintertree Post, and each time, the Sieges start up again.

04/17/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Felradin
It is a stalemate at best in Gilneas with Sylvanas having the capability to go back and bug bomb it again to kill what few Worgen remain.

Those "few worgen" have been whooping the Forsaken's rotting butts. If Sylvanas didn't pull that trick with Crowley's daughter, the Worgen would have pushed them out of Silverpine. So, it's a stalemate, but the Alliance is in full control of Gilneas.

04/17/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Felradin
The great gate isn't really a big obstacle, it's made of wood. If the Alliance was going to push into Mulgore. Then why haven't they already?

Who knows, but the point is they were sieging a zone where a Horde city lay. Does the Horde have anything like that? No, Ironforge, Stormwind, all of them remain peaceful and safe.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
18880
The Alliance haven't won WOW yet, this is proof of Horde Bias.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14280
Garrosh even got to use his Kraken to destroy most of the fleet that was a threat to Orgrimmar. So Alliance lost that whole bunch and Horde lost a few ships and what's to show for it? Varian got to be a little sassy with Garrosh again and the Alliance didn't even touch Org in Tides
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
Garrosh even got to use his Kraken to destroy most of the fleet that was a threat to Orgrimmar. So Alliance lost that whole bunch and Horde lost a few ships and what's to show for it? Varian got to be a little sassy with Garrosh again and the Alliance didn't even touch Org in Tides

I said, at Tides of War, the war became equally matched.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
I said, at Tides of War, the war became equally matched.


How was ToW equally matched? The Alliance lost a city and a large chunk of their military from across the world. All Garrosh lost were some pets and expendable people.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
How was ToW equally matched? The Alliance lost a city and a large chunk of their military from across the world. All Garrosh lost were some pets and expendable people.

No, it changed the war from Alliance winning to equally matched.
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2 Undead Warrior
0
The fact that you are so disconnected from reality is rather sad.

The Alliance was losing the war up until mid MoP. It's now a stalemate.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
The Alliance haven't won WOW yet, this is proof of Horde Bias.


Hahahaha so funny.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14280
What quir says. Tides just deepened the rut the Alliance was in
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100 Draenei Paladin
17310
The Alliance neutralizes Stonard and claims the Swamp of Sorrows.


I love how you keep using this as one of your examples when it's entirely false. Seriously, do the quests on both sides.

At any rate I'm not here to argue how wrong and biased you are when trying to objectively say anything about the Alliance and Horde conflict.

The facts are you can make up all the excuses, justifications and throw all your exasperated talk at the Alliance side of this debate all you like, it doesn't change what the current state in WoW is.

It doesn't matter if the Alliance is winning, it doesn't matter if the Alliance isn't simply a big plot device for the Horde story.

What matters is how the Alliance player base feels and how it feels to be a hardcore Alliance fan in Warcraft.

That is what the joystick articles were getting at and that is the problem.

We as players don't even know about half our victories. They either happen in material outside of the game entirely or they're shown to the Horde player only.

For the past two expansion at least we have always been the afterthought. Where the Horde side gets fleshed out and thought provoking experiences weaved into the game we get whatever there is time for.

Why isn't Ashenvale phased to show that we control it? Why isn't Gilneas full of Gilneans holding the line against the Forsaken?

Why is the Alliance always where the corners are cut? Why do we always get the "Sorry we didn't have enough time." excuse? Why in the hell do I need to read a book or play a Horde character to know what is happening with my faction?

Why is our content always cut? Why was our Twilight Highlands intro cut out among other things? Why is the Horde content the first thing completed before the Alliance content gets touched?

It's to the point that they just copy and paste Horde dialogue onto Alliance NPC's. It's lazy and it's disrespectful to half your player base.

Why are we spending more time working with Horde faction leaders then with our own damn faction? Why aren't we conducting our own operations? Why aren't our leaders out there in the field?

Why the hell am I getting a pep talk in the freaking mail from Varian while I play champion to a freaking Horde rebellion to help them solve their problems?

This is not about Alliance destroying or "beating" the Horde, this is not about the other side having shinier toys.

It's about the Alliance having nothing of their own. I'm tired of riding in the wake of Horde story lines, I'm tired of being the Hordes side kick.

I want to be the Alliance and I want the developers to treat my faction with the same respect and give it the same effort that they do the Horde.

And they don't.

5.3 like the rest of Mists is a Horde story when the Alliance was promised their moment in the sun. The Horde is going through a grand and dynamic change, they are defining what they are and what they will be in the future.

The Alliance are doing nothing, they're just being tacked on for the Hordes ride.

I really do envy the Horde fan and often wish I could be one myself.
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mmmm yes, that's it, fill the buckets with your impotent-rage-ridden tears. Oh how they sustain me. Every drop in the bucket makes it that much better.

It is. Wolfheart happens before quest content, and in quest content the Alliance player literally undoes everything the Horde player does.

In fact, the Horde player stops two sieges at Splintertree Post, and each time, the Sieges start up again.


Oh, i though ally quests were after the Horde's there.

Anyways the presentation has been terrible on blizzards part and they should be ashamed, if they'd simply "Show" the gains/losses, there'd be a lot less people confused.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14280
This is exactly my point. I still believe that the Alliance needs to have some victories before Mists is over but the fact is we are just there to react to the Horde
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14280
Personally I think having two different "cutscenes" after the Siege might help. They can have Vol'jin have his moment but the Alliance needs to come away from the battle with more than just their own casualties and a new leader to reunite the Horde.
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94 Orc Warrior
11550
This is exactly my point. I still believe that the Alliance needs to have some victories before Mists is over but the fact is we are just there to react to the Horde


like superman reacts to lex luthor

The simple fact of the matter is that you are not going to get the type of victories you are after because the alliance's plot is to save Pandaria from the horde. That wouldn't work if you took land for yourself

A little patience, regardless of the portrayal of Tyrande, was an alliance victory. The other engagements are arguably alliance victories as well but I have no interest in arguing them again
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96 Troll Shaman
5540
The Alliance was losing the war up until mid MoP. It's now a stalemate.

You keep saying this, but the Alliance didn't have forces actively assaulting every single one of its starting zones in Cataclysm.

You keep saying the Alliance was losing, but all the battles it "lost" took place half a continent away from their nearest cities, in the Horde's backyard.

You keep saying the Horde was winning until mid-MoP, but all the Horde's victories were reversed within the span of Alliance (or even Horde) questing in Cataclysm, save for Hillsbrad.

As I've said before, tilting at this particular windmill is giving Blizzard the wrong impression of what the Alliance fanbase needs.

The Alliance needs to have its leaders featured more prominently. The tone and themes of their quests and story lines need to be more visceral and enjoyable. Their questing needs more phasing and proper implementation to reflect reality.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
All of Ashenvale. All of Stonetalon. All of Darkshore. All of Felwood. Swamp of Sorrows. Feralas. Badlands. Thousand Needles. Southern Barrens. Durotar. Gilneas.


In Ashenvale, after the quests there, we still have less territory than Vanilla, with Silverwing Outpost still conquered by the Horde, Hellscream's Watch still sieging Astranaar, and the force that attacked Splintertree Post completely wiped out . Outside of stupid Knaak, books I don't know how the Alliance is winning.

In Stonetalon, the orcs are dismantled by Garrosh, not the Alliance, and the zone ends before any theoretical Alliance counter-attack. IF the Alliance is capable of gaining the upper hand there, it's not shown.

Yes, we won Darkshore.

I don't know what happens in the Horde side of Felwood. Blizz has a bad habit of only giving the Alliance half the story so for all I know the Goblins repair any damage caused by the Worgen attackers.

Swamp of Sorrows was a pathetic excuse for a victory, with us not dealing any real damage to the Horde. On top of that, in the Horde side questing the Orcs won.

I don't recall any fighting in Feralas. There was DEFINITELY no fighting in Badlands, and in Thousand Needles the factions were mostly cooperating (and I think mirrored quests?)

Southern Barrens is a horrible stalemate, with massive losses on both sides.

The Alliance is slaughtered in Durotar, and deal absolutely no damage to the Horde.

Alliance-side, the Forsaken conquer the entire zone at the end, resulting in a total loss. Only in Horde questing is it revealed that there's still a fighting force there for the Alliance. While they manage to push the Forsaken out somehow, by the end of Silverpine the Horde is back in Gilneas. Additionally, quest text from the Rogue Legendary chain indicates that the Forsaken are at least near the capital again. Once the Black Dragonflight is removed from Gilneas City, it is not shown who is able to take the city. At any rate, I don't see how "not losing everything, despite the fact that the entire civilian population had to evacuate" counts as a victory, unless you have really, really, really low standards.

So, basically, we have Darkshore. Arguably Swamp of Sorrows. Maybe Felwood, I can neither confirm nor deny that. I will give you these 3 wins. Compare that to losses in Durotar, Ashenvale, and Gilneas, just in the places that for some reason you think we're winning at. That ignores places like W. Plaguelands, N. Barrens, or Hillsbrad, where the Horde destroys us, or all the zones where we're losing to NPC factions.
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