25 Man Progression and state of Hunters

90 Pandaren Hunter
6485
This question is based off 25 man progression only. Please stay on topic.

What is the need to bring hunters currently to any 25 man raid other than gear? Does our utility in some situation out weigh our middle dps rankings? What can we bring that is a clear winner for our raid team to bring us along? Tallstriders dust cloud?

I keep asking myself these questions and keep coming up blank or making excuses for us. I am fine being in the middle of DPS but only when balance is in play.

Thank you for your time and hopefully you can help me out.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Hunter
5435
You're essentially asking a question that there is no "right" answer for, and one where you could substitute "Hunter" for most other DPS specs in the game.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Hunter
6485
If this is the case and we are easily substituted with nothing lost, shouldn't this be fixed? Should we be given a raid wide cool down or our DPS buffed to match other classes. Or should other classes be fixed. Neither seem to be happening.

Not sure about other classes and scaling but we (hunters) typically do not scale as well as other classes. So this leads us to falling further behind. I am not trying to make this a QQ fest but more of a constructive post.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
13725
Thats how it goes with hunters, we are underpowered when it comes to end game progression, and blizz doesn't bother making us worth bringing to min/maxers untill the following patch, when the progression arms race is over.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Hunter
6485
Could it possibly be time for a complete overhaul of hunters?
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
19070
Could it possibly be time for a complete overhaul of hunters?
We already got 1 with the switch from mana to focus so I rather not have my class mutilated again. I think our dps is fine, in my group I'm constantly 1-7 with my raid group and that's all that matters is that your dps is competitive with what your group does. Hunters also scale really well as the content is released especially MM which relies almost purely on stat inflation in the past. SV just has a lower scale ratio which is why it is so good early in expansions. With the changes to RPPM our 2piece 4 piece trinkets and meta proc with haste which helps our scaling. (especially considering how much haste we have in full normal BiS gear 1.5 cobra shot is amazing)

The only difference now is that Hunters were so useful in heroic tier progression for t14 compared to t15, 100% uptime on constant movement fights with specs that were focused on single target and AoE fights, painting on dogs, static shock soaking, range de-enrage on kings, rings on zorlok, kiting with garalon, Deterrence for solo soaking on Elegon and Will. I've only done Heroic Jinrock but being able to reject the debuff is really awesome, would love to see 17+ hunter dps group just void the debuff.

Hunters already have the ability to bring every buff and debuff in the game to a raid team. We also have range MDs, deterrence that cheezes a lot of mechanics on 60 second cool down, with great movability and 100% up-time dps on movement. Your not a handicap because your a hunter just be a better raider. Don't die, min/max your dps, be useful. Unless your competing for world firsts (which looks your not) then hunters are just fine. If your being sat on fights it might just be "your" dps or your SA thats lacking. "Bring the raider, not the class"
Edited by Knife on 4/8/2013 9:33 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Hunter
5435
What might giving us a raid CD fix? Sure it would be nice, but if every other class has one as well its still not a reason to bring us.

Why do you feel our DPS is lackluster? From what I've seen we're upper middle on most fights. Not to mention you haven't progressed through normal yet. If your guild is having a hard time with normal progression, there are more problems than anything playing a different class will address.

There are some serious issues with DPS this tier. The gap between some classes/specs is humongous. This is not really a problem with the middle of the pack classes, its a problem with the outliers.

Time for a redesign? Who is honestly going to answer "No!" to that? Hunters have needed one for a couple expansions now, but that doesn't mean we can't and don't function without one. That said, its not something we're going to get this expansion, let alone this tier.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Hunter
14800
Honestly besides buffs, being crazy dps, or gear/loot issues why bring anyone?

I know you said this is about 25 mans but making any class too useful would seriously suck for 10 mans.... "Bring the raider, not the class" < as someone else said. Stand out by being a good, smart player and I can't see why most raid groups would not want you?

Being non caster ranged is awesome.
MD & feign death + mass rez are nice.
Being able to cover many different buffs in case someone can't make it one night.
We have great movement.
Our great personality? lol

if you are doing normals seriously there is zero reason not to take a hunter over someone else, all things equal. But it depends on the raid make up as a whole- if they have too many of one class it might make loot issues? or too much stacking on a token? It could also be that player B is more liked or a better player then you?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Hunter
6485
I guess I should have clarified that I am not talking about me in general just the class as a whole. I am in a tight knit raid group that just enjoys raiding in a laid back 10 man raid group.

The reason I bring up 25 man progression is because this is were I feel the gap of lack of utility and middle (top-middle) dps stands out the most. Buffs should not really be an issue with a properly set up raid group.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
11370
The need to bring hunters is because of gear. Without a hunter, all ranged weapons and frequently all agi mail drops are wasted.


You're essentially asking a question that there is no "right" answer for, and one where you could substitute "Hunter" for most other DPS specs in the game.


This is wrong. Other reasons to bring classes are primarily their utility, and their DPS. You bring rogues for Smoke Bomb and paladins for Devo Aura, and you bring warlocks because they do 25% more DPS than just about any other class in the game.

Outside of fights that require some sort of soaking with Deterrence (H Will) hunters don't bring any real utility, so we're just doing DPS. Problem is, we do quite a lot less DPS than the top classes so once you have a hunter soaking gear you want to stack warlocks.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Hunter
16835
It's not just 25m. It's even more of an issue in 10m where we provide no raid utility and raid slots are even more precious, with those having utility or massively high damage being preferred for one of your only 5 DPS slots. You bring 1, sometimes none in 10, then stack it up best you can with Warlocks, Rogues, Warriors, Death Knights, etc. We don't have the numbers nor the utility to be worth using unless you need someone to siphon loot.

Hunters are essentially being used as gear soakers. Only reason I have my spot is because I have a gear edge (got lucky on our first couple runs,) I basically never mess up, and we have no suitable subs. If we had a suitable sub, I likely would be sat on upcoming heroic prog.
Edited by Bullettime on 4/8/2013 12:32 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Hunter
4160
It's not just 25m. It's even more of an issue in 10m where we provide no raid utility and raid slots are even more precious, with those having utility or massively high damage being preferred for one of your only 5 DPS slots. You bring 1, sometimes none in 10, then stack it up best you can with Warlocks, Rogues, Warriors, Death Knights, etc. We don't have the numbers nor the utility to be worth using unless you need someone to siphon loot.

Hunters are essentially being used as gear soakers. Only reason I have my spot is because I have a gear edge (got lucky on our first couple runs,) I basically never mess up, and we have no suitable subs. If we had a suitable sub, I likely would be sat on upcoming heroic prog.


I think this is quite the opposite.

in 10 man, we actually 'do' have raid utility. 'Most' 10 mans won't be able to cover every single buff, allowing a moment of shine for the Hunters and finally being able to use their pet for something other than being a little jerk!

25 man though, you're usually going to find that the raid has everything covered and you become a raw dps class that can't buff, battle rez, tank, or step up to the big hitters in PVE.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Hunter
16835
It's extremely easy to cover any and all raid buffs in a 10m with the buff consolidation done in the 5.0 patch. A Hunter's ability to provide missing buffs is no longer a big deal like it was in Cataclysm and often results in the Hunter just bringing a Tallstrider or whatever they think is prettiest in any decent 10m guild who's done comp building. If buffs were still an issue, DPS Shaman would be a staple in every 10m comp.

In a 10m when you only have 5 DPS spots, you want the biggest hitters you can get and/or the ones who provide effective raid utility. There's very little place in a coordinated 10m guild for Hunters and Windwalkers unless you're vastly outplaying/outgearing substitutes. Meanwhile, Warriors, Rogues, Death Knights, and Warlocks are greatly sought after.
Edited by Bullettime on 4/8/2013 4:58 PM PDT
Reply Quote
4 Draenei Mage
0
04/08/2013 04:48 PMPosted by Tortirra
in 10 man, we actually 'do' have raid utility. 'Most' 10 mans won't be able to cover every single buff, allowing a moment of shine for the Hunters and finally being able to use their pet for something other than being a little jerk!


There's no reason to bring a Hunter over another class in any fight for 10 man. There's no job in Heroic ToT that another class doesn't do better than we do, including damage.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Hunter
16835
When did I go to the rogue forums? If you aren't in the top half of your raid group it's 100% you and not the game.

Quit QQing and learn to play.


Every other class except Monk can offer equal or better (sometimes far better) damage while providing more raid utility. Hunters are mediocre at best in damage output and bring nothing to the table if your raid is even remotely competent and has basic composition building skills or the proper understanding of how and when to time utility skills.

If all we bring is damage, why use us when you can grab a Warlock and do drastically higher numbers? Or grab a Moonkin, Shaman, or Spriest who can provide a surge of raid healing during a critical moment while having near identical damage output? Or a Death Knight who provides substantially higher numbers and has things like Anti Magic Zone?

Hunters are used as gear siphons and nothing more. If you're topping the charts in your raid, it's because you're greatly outplaying the others and people need to step their game up. And we're at the at the point where raw DPS numbers aren't as big a factor as they used to with the arms race of DPS utility tools. Even a Ret Paladin who has slightly less damage output than us is more desirable due to clutch uses of Devotion Aura.

You bring a Hunter if you need someone to funnel Agi Mail and bows too. That's it. And even then, in a 10m raid loot is so jacked and random that it's often not even an issue there.
Edited by Bullettime on 4/8/2013 6:10 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Hunter
18290
When did I go to the rogue forums? If you aren't in the top half of your raid group it's 100% you and not the game.

Quit QQing and learn to play.


I'm just going to leave this here, because I love irony

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/51770/

On paper, there's no solid reason to take a hunter, in reality however it more or less comes down to the player and what your raid requires.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Hunter
6485
Please stay constructive, and let the trolls be trolls.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Hunter
6485
On paper, there's no solid reason to take a hunter, in reality however it more or less comes down to the player and what your raid requires. [/quote]

I wish it really did come down to just the player, but in several situation warlocks and mages 5-7 item lvls below us can out perform. Like I stated before I am fine being in the middle of the dps race but only when it is close. The issue is two or three groups are far superior and bring more raid utility.
Reply Quote
14 Tauren Monk
12195
Ask that same question with any dps class. you can just bring hunters and not the other class. we can provide damn near any buff and debuff just by switching pets. our dps is not bad. and we can dps on the move without losing anything. so why not bring a hunter?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]