Soothing Punches, a Mistweaver Guide

90 Pandaren Monk
7275
Your right on one thing, I haven't done enough higher end to be writing a complete guide on healing as normal, but yet, I don't see any up to date guides here. Allot of people are still absolutely silly questions are still being asked that anyone that has a mistweaver can answer. My method does work, at least for me and for now. If my mind gets changed, then yes, I will change the guide. I have no problem at all assuming I am wrong. But as of now, this setup allows me to heal for the most I have ever healed, and consistently as a mistweaver.

Here is the challenge, if you think you can do a better guide go ahead. I will read it and if I like it I will happily promote it over mine.

I never made a claim that I know everything there was to healing. I make no such lofty assumptions of myself. Quite frankly, although I think I am at least decent, I know there are a lot of areas that I need to improve on. And quite frankly, some of the stuff I believe are wrong. I, under no circumstances, can't possibly consider myself qualified enough to make a guide.

The same, however, applies to you. You really do not have the qualifications to make a guide that shows players learning the role how to play their spec. You don't know haste breakpoints. You don't know fight mechanics. You don't know the balance of secondary stats. You haven't even experienced some of the fights that much, MUCH more experienced players have already weighed in on in this thread alone. There is literally no reason to post something under the guise of a guide just so you can say "This is what works for me".

It is! I never claimed to be omnipotent or the leading authority on monks, this is what has and continues to work for me, in the gear I have, with what I need to do. I dont use information from number crunchers or other such things becuase of a few reasons.

one, most of them are out of date since the new changes to mistweaving, and two, the few times I have looked them up to see their opinion and implemented it, it worked only in a very specific sets of situations.


Opinions do not belong in guides. Guides are based around evidence and facts about the class, given to inform the reader about how the class works as a whole. I understand that there are a few mistweaver guides out there that are out of date, but they don't include opinions that aren't backed up by facts--something you failed to do.

Agreed, totally, unless something changes for the much better with fistweaving channel healing is so much more effective. I didnt write this guide with progression in mind because honestly, I am not a progression healer and never claimed to be.


But you need to write your guide with progression in mind, because there are a lot of players that want to get into progression raiding--that's one of the main reasons they would read a guide in the first place, to get better and gain progression. You're completely missing the point of a guide. It's not some glory-seeking project that you get infinite amounts of praise from, it's a tool to help players improve.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/14/2013 6:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
6340
You also have no professions (I don't consider LW at 80 to be anything).


if I were making a leatherworking profession guide, I would agree.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
04/14/2013 06:02 PMPosted by Gonin
You also have no professions (I don't consider LW at 80 to be anything).


if I were making a leatherworking profession guide, I would agree.


And again, you don't see the benefit of having a maxed level profession in end-game content. This has nothing to do with whether or not this is a LW profession guide and everything on how professions affect performance when all is said and done.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/14/2013 6:04 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
If you don't have all of the facts on the class, and are making a guide based on what you, yourself, have experienced, you can help absolutely nobody. Even if -I- wrote a guide based on my experiences, it wouldn't be useful for anyone but me.

I appreciate what you're attempting to do, but you're spreading misinformation and you are very wrong on almost every account.
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90 Night Elf Monk
6340
If you don't have all of the facts on the class, and are making a guide based on what you, yourself, have experienced, you can help absolutely nobody. Even if -I- wrote a guide based on my experiences, it wouldn't be useful for anyone but me.

I appreciate what you're attempting to do, but you're spreading misinformation and you are very wrong on almost every account.


Huh.

this actually just confused me more than anything. If i am going to write a guide on how to do anything, I am going to write it on something I know, and how I do it, not on how you or he or she does it. It makes no sense to do it that way, because I don't know how everyone else does things.

for example, if I am giving instructions to someone to get to my house, I am going to tell you how I would get home, from your position, not how frank down the street would get to my house from his, it makes no sense.

The part that confuses me (from everyone) is how I can both be utterly wrong, (with no explanation,) yet never received a complaint on any healing I have ever done -since- I got my heroic blues. Maybe that's my disconnect. I might not be tiger woods, but you dont need tiger to teach you to golf.

Either way, the guide is pretty much done. Enjoy, dont, what have you.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
04/14/2013 06:02 PMPosted by Gonin
You also have no professions (I don't consider LW at 80 to be anything).


if I were making a leatherworking profession guide, I would agree.

Do you not understand what an armory audit was? I was detailing all the things your toon is missing, things people are going to look at as evidence to think "wow, this guy doesn't even know what to do with his OWN character, why should I take his advice?"

...And that's what this thread is. ADVICE. Disregarding the fact it's largely bad advice, advice is not a guide. A guide sticks to the facts, which you have not done here. That's partially what Mist was saying, as well as the fact you just don't have enough experience/authority to really know what you're talking about.

And yeah, I'm not going to write a guide, either, because I may know *my* stuff, but I'm constantly learning new things, certainly no theorycrafter, nor at the cutting edge of progression, and most importantly there are better guides out there, such as the one I linked earlier in this thread. It may have certain outdated aspects but is a much better source of factual information than this.
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90 Night Elf Monk
6340
I'm a little curious, and will probably regret this, but how much healing do you actually do?


3-4 hours everyday, on average. More if i am raiding, less nearer the end of the week or as RL allows.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13525
04/14/2013 08:59 PMPosted by Gonin
I'm a little curious, and will probably regret this, but how much healing do you actually do?


3-4 hours everyday, on average. More if i am raiding, less nearer the end of the week or as RL allows.


No, I didn't how much you played the game, I meant how much healing you actually do HPS wise :P
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
Huh.

this actually just confused me more than anything. If i am going to write a guide on how to do anything, I am going to write it on something I know, and how I do it, not on how you or he or she does it. It makes no sense to do it that way, because I don't know how everyone else does things.

And this is the FLAGRANTLY wrong way to do it. People who make guides spend weeks not just healing the content, but experimenting, doing math, looking at top players of the spec, using different playstyles... They don't just find one way that works for them; they test over and over and over with different gearing, reforges, gemming, spell rotations, talents, glyphs, etc., all while having done all the research into the gear choices of top players, until they can confidently say "X is more valuable Y, and here's the math, and here's the reasoning, and here are the exceptions to that".

for example, if I am giving instructions to someone to get to my house, I am going to tell you how I would get home, from your position, not how frank down the street would get to my house from his, it makes no sense.

Wh...what is...what is even the point you're trying to make here? This has nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

The part that confuses me (from everyone) is how I can both be utterly wrong, (with no explanation,) yet never received a complaint on any healing I have ever done -since- I got my heroic blues. Maybe that's my disconnect. I might not be tiger woods, but you dont need tiger to teach you to golf.

Because, as you said, it works for you. If you're a halfway competent healer, you won't get many, if any, complaints. And in LFR, you're one of 6 healers; so long as you are healing and the raid doesn't wipe, people won't !@#$%. However, I can see that you might lag behind in actual raids, simply because the margin of error is much smaller, and poor gemming, reforging, and talent choices will lead to some very rough situations.

Either way, the guide is pretty much done. Enjoy, dont, what have you.

If it were up to me, it'd be removed completely.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/14/2013 9:31 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
6340
Do you not understand what an armory audit was? I was detailing all the things your toon is missing, things people are going to look at as evidence to think "wow, this guy doesn't even know what to do with his OWN character, why should I take his advice?"

...And that's what this thread is. ADVICE. Disregarding the fact it's largely bad advice, advice is not a guide. A guide sticks to the facts, which you have not done here. That's partially what Mist was saying, as well as the fact you just don't have enough experience/authority to really know what you're talking about.

And yeah, I'm not going to write a guide, either, because I may know *my* stuff, but I'm constantly learning new things, certainly no theorycrafter, nor at the cutting edge of progression, and most importantly there are better guides out there, such as the one I linked earlier in this thread. It may have certain outdated aspects but is a much better source of factual information than this.


Maybe I should have been more or less clear on that last comment. I know people are going to look at my armory page, I have no problem with that, I even said it wasn't very impressive right now. I don't understand how having maxxed out tradeskills proves I am a good healer or changes my opinion about the class I heal as in any way shape or form. Its akin to saying, "Oh, I know monks inside and out because my ENG is 600." great...so is that warriors, my guilds pally, etc, and? If tomorrow I got every gem, it wouldn't make my SURG heal two people instead of one, getting everything enchanted will not make my Revival a bubble instead of a heal, or make any of my cds cd faster.

and its just ridiculous to think that no guide can offer a opinion. That is the whole point of a guide, someone a little more wise then you, telling you what works, and what doesn't work as well. Everyone operates a little bit different then everyone else, especially with the current talent and glyph changes.

what new mistweavers need to know isn't what the talents and glyphs are, they can see that for themselves. Not what gear to take and gems, there are apps for that. They need to know what gets groups from point A to point B with relatively little pain and still having enough to at least try and heal out of "Oh No" moments. Thats what i can do, that cant possibly be "wrong".

Now if every group I ever healed ever I got people killed or wiped them, then I would be "Wrong" and I certainly wouldn't have the gear I have, be the level I am, and have the balls to write a guide.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
04/14/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Gonin
Maybe I should have been more or less clear on that last comment. I know people are going to look at my armory page, I have no problem with that, I even said it wasn't very impressive right now. I don't understand how having maxxed out tradeskills proves I am a good healer or changes my opinion about the class I heal as in any way shape or form. Its akin to saying, "Oh, I know monks inside and out because my ENG is 600." great...so is that warriors, my guilds pally, etc, and? If tomorrow I got every gem, it wouldn't make my SURG heal two people instead of one, getting everything enchanted will not make my Revival a bubble instead of a heal, or make any of my cds cd faster.

This made my night. It's just so incoherent and nonsensical that I actually started laughing. Thank you.

and its just ridiculous to think that no guide can offer a opinion. That is the whole point of a guide, someone a little more wise then you, telling you what works, and what doesn't work as well. Everyone operates a little bit different then everyone else, especially with the current talent and glyph changes.

STOP MISSING THE POINT

A GUIDE IS NOT SOMETHING TO OFFER OPINIONS

A GUIDE OFFERS ACTUAL FACTS AND INFORMATION, INCLUDING RELEVANT MATH, REASONING, AND LOGIC. IF ANY OPINIONS ARE MADE, IT'S INFERRED FROM THE INCLUDED MATH, NOT JUST BECAUSE "IT WORKS FOR ME".

YOU DID NONE OF THIS. YOU MERELY STATE "DO X, DON'T DO Y" AND GIVE PISSPOOR REASONS FOR THIS, ALL BECAUSE "IT WORKS FOR ME".

what new mistweavers need to know isn't what the talents and glyphs are, they can see that for themselves. Not what gear to take and gems, there are apps for that. They need to know what gets groups from point A to point B with relatively little pain and still having enough to at least try and heal out of "Oh No" moments. Thats what i can do, that cant possibly be "wrong".

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Talents and glyphs directly affect how a person plays. Gems and reforges directly affect how a person plays. And you're right, that is what some people need to know, BUT IF THE ADVICE YOU ARE GIVING THEM IS BAD (HINT: IT IS) THEN YOU ARE JUST MAKING THINGS WORSE FOR THEM.

Now if every group I ever healed ever I got people killed or wiped them, then I would be "Wrong" and I certainly wouldn't have the gear I have, be the level I am, and have the balls to write a guide.

The way you're playing works for you. Great. Awesome. That doesn't mean that it's worth giving advice about. Not only are you subject to the scrutiny of your peers, but now, if you give bad information (HINT: YOU DID), you have just given bad information to somoene who is trying to be better and started a slippery slope for them.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/14/2013 9:44 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
04/14/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Gonin
I don't understand how having maxxed out tradeskills proves I am a good healer or changes my opinion about the class I heal as in any way shape or form. Its akin to saying, "Oh, I know monks inside and out because my ENG is 600." great...so is that warriors, my guilds pally, etc, and? If tomorrow I got every gem, it wouldn't make my SURG heal two people instead of one, getting everything enchanted will not make my Revival a bubble instead of a heal, or make any of my cds cd faster.

Because why the heck would someone want to take advice from someone who's clearly content with being mediocre? Actually, content is understating it. You're justifying it and outright ignoring the value of gemming/etc your gear, of having professions at all.
Your armory looks like someone who either:
a) Is just starting off with their character at 90
or
b) Doesn't really care about their character.


THAT'S why your armory audit is relevant. Neither of those options are the kind of person you want to take advice from.

And yeah everything Fistlobster said.
Edited by Swaggle on 4/14/2013 10:25 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
15035
I saw this thread when it was being created and KNEW I would be in for a treat when I came back the next day.

And just for the record:

Just because no one is complaining about your healing doesn't make you good. It just means you're not terrible enough to make the LFR strangers type out a message instead of violently pressing 1.
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90 Human Monk
9145
Are we being PUNKd?

This blabbering mess isn't even worth the pixels it displays on...

ASPIRING MISTWEAVERS-- RUN AWAY FROM HERE!!!!
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
The way I see it, this is a very effective guide. At least, for what not to do.

It's not the fact that your opinions are contained in it, OP. It's that you aren't outlining the fact that your choices may not be optimal (I won't go into just how wrong you are... very. Actually, I will.)

Most likely, you're being carried by the nuances of your class. Anyone who knows at least to use RM on cd and uplift when health bars drop in between spamming soothing mist for chi can effectively (effectively meaning the bare minimum for meaningless content). A true master of a class goes through every single gearing strategy, talent choice combination, glyph and healing spell to see exactly what is most efficient, what puts out the fastest/largest heal and when to use it.

Take for example, my gearing strategy as disc/holy. I go for heavy mastery/crit with medium spirit. Does that mean that my gearing strategy and talent choices will work for everyone? No. I can extol the virtues of the way I play until I'm blue in the face and it's MEANINGLESS. The major reason that it is meaningless is because it is MY playstyle. It is not the be all end all of playstyles. I'm not the messiah, I don't pretend to know what's best for everyone.

Basically all that this "guide" tells me is that you've found a way to make an extremely suboptimal build work. Congrats. You're mediocre. Have a cookie. But don't convince others that your playstyle is the best way, or the only way, or whatever and call it a guide. Or at the very least, explore other options and report what you've found.

I'd be more willing to listen to a spam email from the "King of Kenya" telling me that my aunt is trapped in his country and needs a thousand dollars in order to bring my lottery winnings and Russian mail order bride home to me.

Edit: Apparently a certain african country that starts with ni- and ends with -eria is blocked by the forum. changed to kenya.
Edited by Fereveralone on 4/15/2013 3:55 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
04/14/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Fistlobster
and its just ridiculous to think that no guide can offer a opinion. That is the whole point of a guide, someone a little more wise then you, telling you what works, and what doesn't work as well. Everyone operates a little bit different then everyone else, especially with the current talent and glyph changes.

STOP MISSING THE POINT

A GUIDE IS NOT SOMETHING TO OFFER OPINIONS

A GUIDE OFFERS ACTUAL FACTS AND INFORMATION, INCLUDING RELEVANT MATH, REASONING, AND LOGIC. IF ANY OPINIONS ARE MADE, IT'S INFERRED FROM THE INCLUDED MATH, NOT JUST BECAUSE "IT WORKS FOR ME".

YOU DID NONE OF THIS. YOU MERELY STATE "DO X, DON'T DO Y" AND GIVE PISSPOOR REASONS FOR THIS, ALL BECAUSE "IT WORKS FOR ME".


There's nothing wrong with offering opinion in a guide as long as the reasons for the opinion are well explained, along with the counter-arguments for the alternatives, and the fact that it is an opinion is noted. If you don't point out what is opinion then a reasonable person would conclude it is fact, and when it can be disproved as fact it deters greatly from any value the guide may have.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8740
04/14/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Gonin
Your right on one thing, I haven't done enough higher end to be writing a complete guide on healing as normal, but yet, I don't see any up to date guides here. Allot of people are still absolutely silly questions are still being asked that anyone that has a mistweaver can answer. My method does work, at least for me and for now. If my mind gets changed, then yes, I will change the guide. I have no problem at all assuming I am wrong. But as of now, this setup allows me to heal for the most I have ever healed, and consistently as a mistweaver.


When I wrote my guide on the shaman forums (which still hasn't been stickied)- yes, I did give it a personal touch, however I explained why I took the talents I used. BUT on that same note, I also reminded people that my build was not the end all be all build (because there really isn't one- talents and glyphs are all situational).

Also, I explained a lot of the little stuff people normally wouldn't think of. Then again, my guide also ended up being like 10 posts long. Heck, I even put all my macros into the guide I wrote. If there was something I couldn't outright explain, I copy/pasted what was on EJ or icy-veins (think I gave credit to both) or gave a link (especially for haste breakpoints- they get weird depending on if you're a goblin and have/have not taken AS). I also made sure to explain that my guide was geared towards less advanced players.

I also made sure to use word and proofread it before I posted in.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en-us/forum/topic/8177778099

Just to show you what I'm talking about. Even if my old man were to start playing a resto shaman, I think my guide would actually help him out more than yours does for me.

04/14/2013 09:25 PMPosted by Fistlobster
And this is the FLAGRANTLY wrong way to do it. People who make guides spend weeks not just healing the content, but experimenting, doing math, looking at top players of the spec, using different playstyles... They don't just find one way that works for them; they test over and over and over with different gearing, reforges, gemming, spell rotations, talents, glyphs, etc., all while having done all the research into the gear choices of top players, until they can confidently say "X is more valuable Y, and here's the math, and here's the reasoning, and here are the exceptions to that".


Fist- calm down hun.

Not all guides are as in depth as EJ. As I said above, when I wrote my shaman guide, I was mainly gearing it towards someone that would be starting to heal at level 15 or just coming back from the game. What I did in mine was posted links for the more advanced players. What you- and the OP himself- tend to forget: there is no technical "cookie cutter" spec. Granted there are some talents (take a shaman's HTT for example) that are better than others. But a lot of it is situation dependent.

OP, I really hope you didn't intend this guide to be geared towards raiding. Sit down, rewrite it- USING WORD- and try to make it less "This is why I think this talent is terrible" and base it on facts.

Now a player that writes a guide wants to do- to at least be taken seriously- is have maxed out profs and have all their gear gem and enchanted. Otherwise you look like you have no idea what you're talking about- it's all about presentation: both in word and in appearance. I don't expect the person that wrote the guide to be raiding heroic tier- what I do expect is them showing that they care enough about their character to show they are serious about the class.
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/15/2013 8:29 AM PDT
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I think this guy is actually trying to help.

He clearly posted that he is looking to be convinced of how to properly do things.

All I see in the responses are "you're wrong on almost everything" with no constructive feedback at all.

If the OP is wrong tell him where AND how to fix it.

And OP if someone tells you that you're wrong MAKE them explain and facilitate discussion on it. This is your thread dont let people just troll you out of it.

A community based guide can actually be recieved just as well as one from one "pro" person, and besides the OP is right that no one else was stepping up to the plate.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13525
^ People have actually gone into great detail on as to why he's "wrong" on certain aspects of the guide.

Sure it's great for someone to take the time to write up a guide, but if you're giving misinformation and styling it in a way that makes it difficult to read it's not a helpful guide at all.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
Now a player that writes a guide wants to do- to at least be taken seriously- is have maxed out profs and have all their gear gem and enchanted. Otherwise you look like you have no idea what you're talking about- it's all about presentation: both in word and in appearance. I don't expect the person that wrote the guide to be raiding heroic tier- what I do expect is them showing that they care enough about their character to show they are serious about the class.

Precisely.

04/15/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Veroicone
^ People have actually gone into great detail on as to why he's "wrong" on certain aspects of the guide.

Yes, we have. Bipst, if you sincerely believe no one explained why he's wrong, go back and read my first reply in this thread. I merely skimmed the surface of a few issues with his "suggestions" (presented as fact), but I did point out where he was wrong about talents he overlooked. (I actually went on rather at length about Tiger's Lust, considering.)
Bipst, this guy isn't looking for help or advice. My first response may have been blunt but I wasn't being rude. From everything I wrote, he took my one remark about his 80 Leatherworking and has been proceeding to harp on how professions don't mean anything, making straw men about how "level 600 engineering must make someone a pro" or something to that effect. If you think he's being receptive, at all, I'm not sure I'm reading the same thread as you.
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