Divine Purpose vs. Holy Avenger (holy)

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12835
Lately I've seen a few holy paladins using Divine purpose over Holy Avenger. Just out of curiosity, why would any Hpally use random over certainty? Aren't we trying to steer away from being so reliant on RNG (Ret used to be heavily dependent on rng)?

Holy Avenger - increases damage and healing of the ability that generates holy power by 30% and also grants 3 instead of one.

Not only are you increasing your HS/HR healing, but also always generating three holy powers. I like the odds and the increase, it also is another CD I get to have.

Divine purpose - 25% chance of when you spend HP to proc a free "HP spending ability" and act as if it were spending three. Yes, no mana, can proc back to back, but is completely random. How is the raid group able to rely on you to keep them healed during a phase (such as thunder storm for 1st boss of ToT) when you have nothing but HR (which was nerfed) and LoD. It's possible to get those procs, but what if you don't? The other healer is either saving their big healing CD for the next big aoe raid damage or has already used it before you. I can't rely on rng. Also, what if you get those back to back procs when you don't need them, such as during a light damaging phase? You practically overheal or lose the proc.

I find my heals to be perfect and have been complimented plenty of times of my healing abilities. I'm not the best nor am I trying to boast or anything, but I am no where in need of help when it comes to healing. I am just curious as to why people are choosing DP over HA. I have tried both talents so I know how they both work.

Disclaimer - I have recently started on ret gear and logged out in my ret gear, don't make fun >:)
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90 Human Paladin
3420
....Because there's something called "Tome of the Clear Mind"?

You naturally pick HA for fights with timed damage phases, and DP for fights with sustained damage.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
I don't play Holy much, but as I understand it, DP helps when you want to keep Eternal Flame rolling on as many targets as possible. HA doesn't help you do that continuously.

And as Pospospos says, talents are situational. DP isn't ALWAYS the right choice, and neither is HA.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14645
DP procs often enough for me to find it useful. Especially in LFR when practically everyone is taking damage no matter what. Free LoD's and EF's are great.

Yes, I understand what you mean by losing them, which does happen. That's the only real downside. It costs nothing to use them, so I'm not losing mana or HoPo because of it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12835
....Because there's something called "Tome of the Clear Mind"?
I use them quite often, just not for that tier. No need to get sassy with me young lady :P
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
As you say, you are always healing. Being how you are always healing, you are always spending HoPo. So, math blabbity blah blah, Divine Purpose should go off a decent amount w/ the added bonus of back to back procs. This lets you blanket the raid more often than the 2 minutes that Holy Avenger allows.

Personally, I use DP most of the time. It seems to be saving me casts, which saves me mana over the course of a fight. While I agree that HA is a strong CD, it's a CD. The obvious downside to DP is that you have to rely on your other CDs for those heavy damage moments. But really, how is that any different than any other heal set up?

The official word from people that aren't me is that HA for predictable spike dmg and DP for all around efficiency. Do you want to be dependable or do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?
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90 Human Paladin
3420
04/14/2013 09:18 PMPosted by Draendro
....Because there's something called "Tome of the Clear Mind"?
I use them quite often, just not for that tier. No need to get sassy with me young lady :P


That begs the question: if you know what those are, why bother to come here and ask?

A smart-!@# loaded question begets a "sassy young lady-esque" answer.
Edited by Pospospos on 4/14/2013 10:30 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12835
A smart-!@# loaded question begets a "sassy young lady-esque" answer.
First of all I had no intentions of my question being a :smart-***" question. If you read what I posted, you'd understand none of it contains any sarcasm. I was curious as to why people were choosing DP of HA. I have my answer. I was merely trying to let you know that instead of being so offensive to me, you could try to be a little nicer... Your very first statement is nothing but sarcasm and rudeness and personally I'd rather not have an answer than have to deal with someone like you.

Do you want to be dependable or do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?
I've never felt lucky :( but I see how it's good to use DP now for a few of the fights. Thanks all for the answers.
Edited by Draendro on 4/15/2013 3:13 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Lately I've seen a few holy paladins using Divine purpose over Holy Avenger. Just out of curiosity, why would any Hpally use random over certainty? Aren't we trying to steer away from being so reliant on RNG (Ret used to be heavily dependent on rng)?

Holy Avenger - increases damage and healing of the ability that generates holy power by 30% and also grants 3 instead of one.

Not only are you increasing your HS/HR healing, but also always generating three holy powers. I like the odds and the increase, it also is another CD I get to have.

Divine purpose - 25% chance of when you spend HP to proc a free "HP spending ability" and act as if it were spending three. Yes, no mana, can proc back to back, but is completely random. How is the raid group able to rely on you to keep them healed during a phase (such as thunder storm for 1st boss of ToT) when you have nothing but HR (which was nerfed) and LoD. It's possible to get those procs, but what if you don't? The other healer is either saving their big healing CD for the next big aoe raid damage or has already used it before you. I can't rely on rng. Also, what if you get those back to back procs when you don't need them, such as during a light damaging phase? You practically overheal or lose the proc.

I find my heals to be perfect and have been complimented plenty of times of my healing abilities. I'm not the best nor am I trying to boast or anything, but I am no where in need of help when it comes to healing. I am just curious as to why people are choosing DP over HA. I have tried both talents so I know how they both work.

Disclaimer - I have recently started on ret gear and logged out in my ret gear, don't make fun >:)


DP is a passive effect which will work "at all times" regardless of whether or not you are burning cooldowns.

That said, boosting your power for non-CD will generally offer more power and overall returns than boosting just your CD power, mathematically speaking. Even with the RNG playing havok.

I generally don't have to burn cooldowns in most game play. I hold them in reserve until just before I need them. That said, yes apples to apples HA will appear more powerful, but in the long run, I will generate far more healing from using DP.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
04/14/2013 08:48 PMPosted by Draendro
Lately I've seen a few holy paladins using Divine purpose over Holy Avenger. Just out of curiosity, why would any Hpally use random over certainty? Aren't we trying to steer away from being so reliant on RNG (Ret used to be heavily dependent on rng)?

I don't need 3 cooldowns for every fight.

DP procs may be random, but their effects are never completely useless; even if the initial portion of an Eternal Flame is entirely overheal, it still transfers to the Beacon target, it still puts up a HoT, and it still builds up a shield.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8180
A smart-!@# loaded question begets a "sassy young lady-esque" answer.

C'mon Pospospos, what's up with all the hostility? Every thread I've seen you in, you respond like that.

I like both DP and HA, but when I use DP I get really lucky with the procs, and that makes me happy lol.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Divine Purpose is absurdly mana efficient. Every proc is free healing.

Holy Avenger is a fantastic cooldown, and while it obviously provides extra healing you need to consider that it doesn't actually reduce your mana costs at all. You cast a Holy Shock and get three charges of Holy Power instead of one - then you use that 3 HP to cast a EF or LoD. You could've done the same thing with 1 HP instead of 3, that finisher would have just been much less effective. Your mana cost would be the same.

That's why Holy Paladins typically default to Divine Purpose - well, that and the fact that no Divine Purpose proc is ever really "wasted" due to our Eternal Flame, Beacon, and Illuminated Healing design. Who cares if EF is almost entirely overheal by itself - if the Beacon trickle and the mastery shield it creates are still effective, then it's still far from a waste (not ideal of course, but still enough to justify taking Divine Purpose).

Even this tier, where Holy Paladins in 522+ gear can begin regemming from Spirit to Mastery to take advantage of our completely overpowered stat... taking Divine Purpose to allow us to regem for MORE Mastery typically makes more sense than defaulting to Holy Avenger even though it's quite blatantly a much better designed talent.

edit: That being said, if you blindly stick to DP like a robot for every single fight... regardless of whether you would benefit more from the extra cooldown in HA... then you're doing it wrong!
Edited by Tailias on 4/16/2013 4:31 PM PDT
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92 Blood Elf Paladin
10925
Holy paladins have three cooldowns! Do we really need one more? Eternal Flame + Divine Purpose is why holy pallies take divine purpose.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
04/16/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Wasselin
Holy paladins have three cooldowns! Do we really need one more?

Sometimes!

If there's a nasty boss ability on a < 1:30 cooldown, then Wings + Favour won't be enough to cover every one of them. Even adding in Guardian (which is pretty weak for AoE situations) only gets you so far, since it's got such a long cooldown.

DP is my default choice, but HA gets used on a few fights every raid.
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90 Human Paladin
3420
04/15/2013 03:11 AMPosted by Draendro
A smart-!@# loaded question begets a "sassy young lady-esque" answer.
First of all I had no intentions of my question being a :smart-***" question. If you read what I posted, you'd understand none of it contains any sarcasm. I was curious as to why people were choosing DP of HA. I have my answer. I was merely trying to let you know that instead of being so offensive to me, you could try to be a little nicer... Your very first statement is nothing but sarcasm and rudeness and personally I'd rather not have an answer than have to deal with someone like you.


I find my heals to be perfect and have been complimented plenty of times of my healing abilities. I'm not the best nor am I trying to boast or anything, but I am no where in need of help when it comes to healing. I am just curious as to why people are choosing DP over HA. I have tried both talents so I know how they both work.


I never said your posts were sarcastic. I said they were loaded and you were just trying to boost your epeen.

Try to at least get your facts right next time before you boast.
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90 Human Paladin
3420
04/16/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Céles
A smart-!@# loaded question begets a "sassy young lady-esque" answer.

C'mon Pospospos, what's up with all the hostility? Every thread I've seen you in, you respond like that.



I use them quite often, just not for that tier. No need to get sassy with me young lady :P



It was in response to a very condescending answer by someone who is fishing for compliments behind a thinly-veiled opening post.

Hostility always begets hostility, and I don't intend to be nice to douchebags.
Edited by Pospospos on 4/16/2013 11:05 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10335
Honestly I really like DP but for hard modes I pref HA.

IMO HA is more of a skill cap ability than DP is since its active vs passive, and it will show when you use HA correctly.

But either or is fine for normals. I raid 25 man so not sure how this goes for a 10 man environment.

--heroic jinrokh 25m--
Gaudrik has HA
Castiel has DP

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rfrklwblvkugnnb0/sum/healingDone/?s=2732&e=3075

Yes we do 6 heal most fights sometimes the Druid goes boomy anyways I just started using HA and love it for heroics!!
Edited by Gaudrik on 4/17/2013 1:08 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
6975
Here are my choices this tier on a fight-by-fight basis. For context, I raid 10-man heroics with a Discipline Priest (and a Druid for 3-heal fights).

  • Holy Avenger for Jin'rokh. Use for every Lightning Storm.
  • Divine Purpose for Horridon. The damage is constant and on random targets, so procs are rarely wasted - the fire DoT on the first gate, the bleeds on the second gate, the fixating adds and diseases on the third gate, and Chain Lightning on the fourth gate. The only large, predictable burst is Dire Call, which is usually covered by Spirit Shell.
  • Holy Avenger for Council of Elders. Divine Purpose would probably result in more overall healing, but I prefer Holy Avenger because it gives more room for error during Frostbites and Kazra'jin's empower. Those are both extremely dangerous parts of the fight, and this fight falls apart pretty quickly if someone dies early.
  • Tortos doesn't really matter. I personally use Holy Avenger, but either way, 3 Holy Power EFs are basically never wasted thanks to the Humming Crystals. If you choose Holy Avenger, just use it on cooldown.
  • Holy Avenger for Megaera. Heads should be dying a little over 1 minute apart, making Holy Avenger available for 3 of 6 extremely damaging Rampages.
  • Holy Avenger for Ji-Kun. Use whenever available for Quills.
  • Holy Avenger for Durumu. Use triple cooldowns for every Light Spectrum.
  • Divine Purpose for Primordius. Most mutations do some sort of high, frequent, and randomly targeted damage.
  • Divine Purpose for Dark Animus. Procs are never wasted at the beginning since there's a baby Golem on pretty much every raid member, and Interrupting Jolts at the end happen too quickly to justify choosing Holy Avenger.
  • Holy Avenger for Iron Qon. Useful for Unleashed Flame (our melee group goes up to 6 stacks), after a Windstorm, and during a Fist Smash.
  • Holy Avenger for Twin Consorts, but this may just be due to the healing comp I run with. Discipline has pretty mediocre burst healing aside from Spirit Shell, but the raid is too spread out to make good use of it, so Holy Avenger is needed whenever possible for Nuclear Inferno.
  • Lei Shen doesn't really matter. The most dangerous parts of the fight are the two intermissions, and neither talent is great for those. I personally use Holy Avenger.
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