Explain to me again how...

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90 Human Warlock
9100
Magnata: I'd say there'd be maybe twenty threads on this topic in the last six months?

Or am I being conservative in my estimate?
To actually answer the OP's first question, ninja looting was a thing in MMOs before WoW where you could fight a mob and someone else could come along and loot your kill before you. That is not possible in WoW, hence why people say "ninja looting doesn't exist".

In WoW, however, the word has changed. It now refers to people who roll on something someone thinks they shouldn't roll on.

Also, yes, if "need" is lit and you want to vendor the item or DE it with your own DE'ing skill or just have it sit in your bags as silent testamony to the time to kept someone from getting what they want, its within the rules. Mostly, however, people need things that are honestly upgrades for them in some way. It might be a spec that they are currently not using but that is within the rules.

The rest is all about behavior and regards when people choose to hit that little white need button.

But, yeah, technically ninja'ing, in its original form, is not possible in WoW.
90 Human Paladin
7315
You are saying that taking gear from your groups healer, tank, or dps just because you have the option and have an off spec is okay? How is that not greedy? You are taking loot for an off spec that you might rarely ever use just because you can? How is THAT not greedy?


How can you tell how often they'll play that spec? LFD is designed for players to gear up their character in general, any spec they wish to gear up. When Need is lit up, anyone is welcome to roll Need. (There are a few items that are incorrectly flagged, iirc.)

Does it suck when you've run something 1001 times for a specific item, and keep losing said item to others who aren't playing in that spec? Sure. Don't get me started on how long it took to get my Splintered Door of the Citadel. It's not against the rules. It's not ninja'ing. It's not even being a jerk (not entirely).

It is, however, polite to toss out a quick "Anyone mind if I need that?" before hitting Need for a secondary or third (or fourth) spec, but not really necessary. I personally appreciate it when someone asks before Needing on something that's a big upgrade for me, but if they don't, I shrug and move on. Can't change it, no point in getting upset over it. Run it again, and hope luck is on your side.

I play for enjoyment, I certainly won't let something like a Need roll ruin my gametime.
100 Human Priest
7535
You are saying that taking gear from your groups healer, tank, or dps just because you have the option and have an off spec is okay? How is that not greedy? You are taking loot for an off spec that you might rarely ever use just because you can? How is THAT not greedy?


I think it's a jerk move to need on something for your off spec no matter how frequently you're going to be in that spec and especially if you're the tank or healer taking gear from DPS. I feel you should at least ask before you need on gear for your off spec.

But since the WoW community seems to be divided on what polite behavior in groups is or even what the definition of off spec is, it's basically this....

a case of "Nothing will get done about it, who cares about anyone else, I will just take it for the vendor gold."?


And yes, that's messed up.
Edited by Zariiah on 4/18/2013 8:17 AM PDT
100 Human Paladin
19630
You are saying that taking gear from your groups healer, tank, or dps just because you have the option and have an off spec is okay? How is that not greedy? You are taking loot for an off spec that you might rarely ever use just because you can? How is THAT not greedy?

At this point in the expansion, needing on 463 ilevel gear won't set back the person who lost the roll by very much. Once your gear score allows you into LFR, you'll get much better things than the dungeons offer. And don't forget the alternate sources: crafted gear and the stuff you can buy from faction vendors for justice/valor.

My attitude on rolling for gear is, if it's appropriate for the player's class (not just their current spec) they can need on it. Maybe I need that piece too, but it's not mine and I'm not entitled to it until I win the roll. Life is long and there's more loot where that came from.

Think about this: Would you prefer someone rolling need for offspec items, or someone who sucks when they decide to play their offspec but don't have the gear for it?

Let's say I primarily play dps, but want to start tanking. Would you prefer me rolling on tank gear as a dps, or being a squishy tank and getting everyone killed because I didn't get gear before trying out the new role? Maybe you think both actions are inconsiderate, but one of them will cost you more in repairs and time than the other.
86 Blood Elf Warrior
5120
If they can roll need, then its not a ninja.
90 Dwarf Hunter
14540
almost everything in the game is a hunter item.
fyi for those of you that might be new.


Hey thanks for putting that out there for us!

You are saying that taking gear from your groups healer, tank, or dps just because you have the option and have an off spec is okay? How is that not greedy? You are taking loot for an off spec that you might rarely ever use just because you can? How is THAT not greedy?


To some people, off-spec isn't a "sometimes spec" it's just their 2nd spec. One doesn't necessarily have to be more important than the other. Both specs are part of the same character, so that same character should be able to get gear for both specs. It has value for the character, regardless if they can make use of it immediately.

Just because you can slap it on the second it drops aside from someone else who has to wait to swap specs doesn't make it automatically yours.

Also, how is forbidding someone from getting gear because of YOUR principles not greedy and selfish?
90 Human Rogue
4970
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkHnQrffAhc
90 Human Warlock
9100
If you want offspec gear so badly, don't take from other people's enjoyment of the game. Have a guildie run you. In fact, I will gladly run you on any of my 90s, Horde or Alliance. It isn't 'mandatory', it's just how Bliz set it and they likely won't change it. Period.


Thanks, i am set. The offer is appreciated. I will give you an example of the other side of the coin..I have a tank I am gearing slowly, he is an old old alt...I ran a few dungeons and was kicked for "ninjaing" when I needed on tank gear.

So I queued as a tank and was kicked for being badly geared.

Now what the hell could I do? The answer, sadly, lay in me outlaying a substantial amount of gold and my own resources for the 50 trillium bars needed to get 8 living steel. And a hell of a lot of time mining kyparite to buy the recipes needed.

I wound up paying for the selfishness of others.

The rest of my gear is more or less sorted now, but that was the dilemma I had been faced with.

It's a bloody catch 22, need on gear for 2nd spec and get kicked, or queue as tank and get kicked. .

You cannot have it both ways. One or the other.

This idiotic dilemma is why NBG was introduced in the first place.

It's still an !@#$%^ maneuver to purposely need when someone in the group needs it more than you.


And my need is less?

*takes deep breath*

Read what I sad and find another option. Incidentally, after one specific thread I DID ask "mind if I need for tank gear" as was suggested.

"You have been removed from the group."..so I will be damned if I EVER ask again.

Like it or not, Need before Greed is the only solution.

It is not an offspec it is a second spec, Blizzards solution is the one that is mandatory for LFD, and I for one am not so slowly getting sick and tired of other players deciding what I "need"or not.
Edited by Mirisanelle on 4/18/2013 8:38 AM PDT
100 Gnome Mage
14720
Magnata: I'd say there'd be maybe twenty threads on this topic in the last six months?

Or am I being conservative in my estimate?


Well pretty much since CRZ and cross realm stuff where everyone can be selfish little <insert suitable derogatory pronoun>. And since blizz never fixed anything that prevented people from rolling on things they can't use (bet my hunter can still need on pole arms!)
90 Human Warlock
9100
Also, how is forbidding someone from getting gear because of YOUR principles not greedy and selfish?


Exactly.
100 Human Priest
13840
The answers to this question can be found in the forum search function.
04/18/2013 07:51 AMPosted by Byucknah
Its just acceptable for people to need on gear simply because they can?


I understand your frustration. I feel frustrated when I see it happening before my eyes. However, the concept of rolling for gear is based on every player's common sense. Sadly, not everyone has a lot of it...And there is a lot of greedy, selfish people on this planet. Some of them also play WoW.
85 Tauren Druid
7840
You are saying that taking gear from your groups healer, tank, or dps just because you have the option and have an off spec is okay? How is that not greedy? You are taking loot for an off spec that you might rarely ever use just because you can? How is THAT not greedy?


It certainly may be seen as greedy, yet not ninjaing.
90 Human Warlock
9100
Also, how is forbidding someone from getting gear because of YOUR principles not greedy and selfish?
100 Blood Elf Warlock
15600
oh wow, this is oddly refreshing, in a god damnit I thought we were through this already but thanks for "helping" kinda of way. Finally reading a post not about LFR or some perceived imbalance in pvp, or some hug thread.
90 Draenei Death Knight
8220
How does a Holy Paladin needing on Physical DPS help that healer when there is someone in the group who could actually benefit from it?


How do you know he can't? maybe he can offspec? Maybe he can reforge.

You can't ninja something.. it wasn't anyone's to begin with.
they rolled and won the roll.
90 Tauren Shaman
8125
Because people are asshats. People will come into this thread defending people's ability to need on things they ought not need on. They will make excuses for these people. They will defend it to the death because they probably do it. They will try to make themselves feel morally superior. When, in fact, they are wastes of space.

They truly believe "I can do something therefor it is right that I do it." These are the same people who cut you off in traffic because they think "I can therefor I should," and there is nothing you can do for them except pity their weak moral fiber and their inability to see beyond their own desires.
100 Draenei Death Knight
10145
OP: In order for something to be ninja'd, the accused "ninja" has to take something which rightfully belongs to someone else. The term dates back to earlier MMOs where you couldn't tag a mob, so someone could zip up and killsteal or just wait for you to kill something, then run in and loot it before you could.

In WoW, loot ninjaing has only really existed in the sense of someone with the Master Looter setting enabled who gives themselves something which the group's rules clearly stated was to be given to someone else. Outside of this very specific occasion, it's never existed in World of Warcraft.

No one owns a drop in an instance until it's in someone's inventory. The current tank doesn't own all possible tanking drops that may occur before they drop. The current DPS doesn't own all possible DPS drops that may occur before they drop. In Dungeon Finder, no one gets "dibs" on loot, save by mutual consent of the group at the start of the instance. If that specific conversation doesn't occur, and the majority of the party doesn't explicitly agree to it, the assumption is you're using the default system, which is Need Before Greed. In that scenario, if the Need button lights up for someone, they have a right to hit the button, whatever their personal motivations may be. They don't require other players' permission, though many, out of a sense of courtesy, will often ask if it isn't useful for their currently-used spec. There's nothing wrong with either approach.

The alternative to a loot system you can't control is one you can, which you acquire with premade groups that physically go the dungeon entrance and zone in. If you form a premade and then use Dungeon Finder, you have may have a social contract (an "agreement") to distribute loot in a particular fashion, but if someone out of the blue decides to throw that out the window, they can do so. Any time you use the Dungeon Finder tool, you unilaterally sacrifice control over loot distribution. You're more likely to have compliance with a social contract if it's a premade group of friends, but even then, compliance isn't 100% guaranteed, as someone can go back on their word.

It's a transaction. The price you pay for control over loot distribution is the longer time it takes to form and transport the premade group. The price you pay for the convenience of a dungeon any time/anywhere is loss of control over loot distribution.

But in all cases, the choice is yours. Both choices carry consequences.
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