Will Crit Be the #1 Healing Stat in 5.3?

80 Gnome Priest
10635
With the scaling change to mastery, will it be worth picking up crit over mastery? AFAIK they're really close right now as is.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
12145
I'll still be going mastery. We'll lose 2% but with more gear it'll come back just fine.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
It's a scaling difference. AFAIK you're going to be getting 1.25%/600 mastery rather than 1.5%.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13085
Mastery currently clobbers both Crit and Haste by an unspeakable margin, to the point where basically nobody bothers to argue otherwise. Holy Paladin mastery is currently amazing.

They're not nerfing the scaling to the ground, it's definitely toned down but I'm not convinced that reducing its power to 5/6ths of where it currently is would be enough for such a drastic swing in your secondary stat priority/reforging.

It will make the whole "I have more than enough regen - swap Spirit gems out for Mastery" paradigm that's becoming popular need a re-examination though.
Edited by Tailias on 4/18/2013 12:50 PM PDT
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
Mastery currently clobbers both Crit and Haste by an unspeakable margin, to the point where basically nobody bothers to argue otherwise. Holy Paladin mastery is currently amazing.

I tried out crit this week and I was getting comparable if not better numbers during Heroic Council progression.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5h2bs291sywlh699/analyze/hd/source/?enc=bosses&boss=69078

Playstyle wise I prefer it, and mathematically crit is the same if not better than mastery (of course this is in a vacuum). I think that if mastery goes down, crits value will go down as well, but it'll beat out mastery.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16095
Crit can be a valuable stat.... But... It's a valuable stat when combined with Mastery.

Mathematically speaking, every 1% of Crit, is also 1% of mastery (when it works).

10 casts 100k (10% mastery base) = 1.1M raw healing + Crit chance (.09M) = 1.19M Total
10 casts 100k (9% crit base) = 1.09M raw healing + Mastery (.109M) = 1.19M Total

Pick 1% to go to one or the other....

10 casts 100k (11% mastery) = 1.11M + Crit = 1.209M Total
10 casts 100k (10% crit) = 1.1m + mastery (10%) = 1.21M Total

As you can see on a % for % basis, Crit is stronger for overall healing. Mastery produces less overhealing (since its bonus is absorb shield), but less "raw power."

Crit however works on everything, not just healing. I realize we're running healing 95% of the time, however HS/CS/Denounce/etc, those crits start to add up. Every DPS effect we use, mastery does nothing for us.

Theoretically... and take this with a grain of salt.

Int > Mastery = Crit > Haste

Spirit to comfort

Haste does not provide raw healing power. Everything else does (Spirit as a resource and really cannot be weighted against the other stats). When your spirit reaches a comfort level, it can be 5000 below your secondary stats an be irrelevant, because you will never run out of mana.

Since Int can't be reforged out of (is available on every piece of gear), it is also a non-player, and for the most part is gemmed for socket bonuses.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13085
You are literally the first Holy Paladin I've seen with a heavy crit build for throughput purposes (not "I can stack Crit with Glyph of Illumination and get more mana back" purposes). Interesting.

I'm not so sure that the "math in a vacuum" argument is really that applicable since our Mastery shields have next to no overheal component while Crit definitely does.

You're right that reducing Mastery's value would reduce Crit's value a bit, but it would reduce basically everything by some amount. We're tremendously reliant on our absorbs, even with next to no rating from gear (you're pretty much proving that, haha).

One thing to consider though is that with the nerf to Mastery (and the relative shift towards Crit that you're suggesting) comes a nerf to last tier's 4-piece. That would bring Holy Shock to 5 seconds rather than 4, and would probably make that 4-piece not worth using anymore... meaning a 6 second Holy Shock. One of Crit's great benefits is that it makes Infusion of Light procs more reliable, since HS has a high base crit chance. I'm not really sure how to math that out, and I'm also lazy.

This is getting interesting. I don't think I'm going to dismiss your suggestion, but I'm still skeptical.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
Well my point is, right now it's competitive rating for rating. The thing is, with 5.3 mastery is going to be at 5/6 of the value it's at right now.

The math is really difficult to accurately portray for both stats in respect to each other, but from personal experience I'm able to see similar numbers, if not higher numbers when I switch to crit NOW. Once mastery gets nerfed I don't see this going any other way, if you understand what I'm saying.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16095
Here's the real question. What makes Haste better than Crit?

If the 5.1/5.2 idea of Mastery > Haste > Crit holds true, why is Haste better?

EF pulses at breakpoint, and relatively faster casting time all around, but that in turn causes mana to drop faster as well, making Spirit more valuable.

We know that right now, with enough throughput IH (not mastery) is king. Mastery gives us IH though. Crit also does, but leads to overheals to get us there, so it's a self-balancing equation. Crit may become as valuable as mastery but likely cannot surpass it because of built in limiters.

Haste's major limiter is fixed mana pools. We're only allowed to have so much mana, and we can only get it back so fast, which means that the faster we cast, the more valuable that resource becomes. This in turn devalues haste. How much. Enough to push it below crit, while crit inches towards haste?
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13085
04/18/2013 02:02 PMPosted by Deadsecsi
If the 5.1/5.2 idea of Mastery > Haste > Crit holds true, why is Haste better?


It wasn't?

Haste vs. Crit was preference in T14, and frankly was such an unimportant decision that none of us really thought or cared about it. In retrospect, I absolutely would have taken Crit over Haste if I had a choice.

Haste has no HPM benefit unless you're getting extra HoT ticks out of it, and that wasn't a feasible design for us last tier and still would require us to go far, far out of our way this tier. Its main benefit is reducing cast times and GCD lockouts that occur between Holy Shocks, which absolutely does increase our Holy Power generation over the course of a fight. Not by a ton, but it does.

Crit synergizes with our Mastery shields, it procs Infusion of Light (which remains a great, underrated mechanic), and even with replacing our metas with the legendary ones it will still deal 200% increased healing rather than 206%. Oh... and it's much more mana efficient, considering that IoL procs are the only "haste"-y effect Crit provides, everything else is flat throughput.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
On my phone now so sorry for mistakes in advance.

I would like to see what formulas Mr. Robot uses because it agrees with me on one of its stat builds, saying its the highest throughput. I can't accurately simulate it, but from personal experience I know it works, and it'll only get better comparatively when mastery is nerfed. If anyone can accurately determine how to show which would be best mathematically when accounting for overhealing and drops vs increases I think it would be a much easier decision.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
6975
I think it'll depend on raid size.

The parse you posted is really interesting, Roth. As you mentioned, it seems to imply that for 25-mans, crit could pull ahead of mastery point-for-point in 5.3 - if it hasn't already.

However, I raid 10-mans, and I'm definitely going to keep gearing for mastery when the patch hits.

The simple reason for this is Holy Power usage. While a good chunk of your Holy Power was spent on LoD, virtually all of my Holy Power is spent on EFs, which makes it much less likely that my mastery absorbs will fall off. Comparing your Jin'rokh and Horridon kills this week with my own, for example, your mastery "overheal" was 12.3% to my 4.7%, and 27.5% to my 8.3%, respectively.

One other very minor reason for me staying mastery is the legendary meta gem. I try my best to cast two FoLs for Tower of Radiance gains every time it procs, and they're usually mostly overheal (which, of course, means a greater benefit from mastery).

Mathematically speaking, every 1% of Crit, is also 1% of mastery (when it works).

[...]

Pick 1% to go to one or the other....

10 casts 100k (11% mastery) = 1.11M + Crit = 1.209M Total
10 casts 100k (10% crit) = 1.1m + mastery (10%) = 1.21M Total

This isn't correct - 1% crit does not equal 1% mastery. Right now, it's 600 rating for 1% crit and 400 rating for 1% mastery (will be 480 in 5.3).

Either way, it's not very useful to compare the two stats with individual spells like this since it ignores two very important - and opposing - factors: Beacon of Light, which benefits from crit but not from mastery, and overhealing, which benefits from mastery but not (much) from crit.

Anyway, with all that being said, I'm sure we can all agree that the two stats are very, very close in power, and choosing the inferior stat won't cripple you. I'm actually really happy with healer stat balance across the board right now - crit and mastery are also close in value for Discipline Priests, Druids, and Shaman, and usually just come down to preference or playstyle.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10865
This isn't correct - 1% crit does not equal 1% mastery. Right now, it's 600 rating for 1% crit and 400 rating for 1% mastery (will be 480 in 5.3).
I think he meant in a situation where if a spell crits, it creates a larger mastery bubble, due to the crit producing a bigger heal, that kind of scaling between mastery and crit.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
I'll be posting additional logs after tonight. I think if I test this for longer than a couple nights I'll be able to determine if it's viable or not.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
All with crit build (be gentle on Megeara, that's the first time I've seen that boss)-

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-oqmj338jpyadvclw/sum/healingDone/?s=1996&e=2526

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-oqmj338jpyadvclw/sum/healingDone/?s=7084&e=7644

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-oqmj338jpyadvclw/sum/healingDone/?s=96&e=393
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
20120
Would be interested in seeing more parses once you've picked up some higher ilvl gear.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16095
04/18/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Holymez
This isn't correct - 1% crit does not equal 1% mastery. Right now, it's 600 rating for 1% crit and 400 rating for 1% mastery (will be 480 in 5.3).
I think he meant in a situation where if a spell crits, it creates a larger mastery bubble, due to the crit producing a bigger heal, that kind of scaling between mastery and crit.


Correct, I was specifically referring to the synergy between the two stats, vice the investment.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
6975
04/19/2013 03:37 AMPosted by Deadsecsi
I think he meant in a situation where if a spell crits, it creates a larger mastery bubble, due to the crit producing a bigger heal, that kind of scaling between mastery and crit.


Correct, I was specifically referring to the synergy between the two stats, vice the investment.

Oh, I should have been clearer. The part I meant is incorrect is picking 1% to go to one or the other, when you should be comparing 1% crit to 1.5% mastery (or 1.25% in 5.3). Using those numbers in your example, it's actually mastery that is a fraction better on a % by % basis for overall healing.

Still, what you're saying is a bit misleading, in my opinion. It seems to imply that crit somehow gains double benefit from mastery, when that's not really what's happening. All crit is doing is increasing your total HPS - the same thing that haste does - and mastery's power is based on that total healing amount.

Using your logic, I could argue that it's actually haste that has better "synergy" with mastery, because 1% haste results in 1% more mastery shields, and 1% haste costs 425 rating versus crit's 600.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you: I think crit is better than haste (and as Roth is showing, possibly better than mastery for 25-man Paladins), but that's because the HPS increase provided by crit is free, whereas haste's is not. Same conclusion, different reasoning :)
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16095
My point is that when you increase crit, you still get more IH increased (not specifically Mastery) bubbles which are directly attributed to the crit value. You get the benefits of your base mastery, you get the benefits of your crit increase, and you ALSO get bonus shields on top of it. The synergy is a multiplicative effect rather than an additive effect.

I used the 1% merely for math simplicity. It's a lot easier and faster to show a 1% increase across the board, than to show more complex (complete math).

Haste on the other hand doesn't truly increase HPS... it modifies (condenses) it. This is bad phrasing, but the idea is that you aren't getting any extra healing out of haste. If you cast the same 10 spells over the same amount of time, your haste rating is irrelevant. You'll have the same amount of HPS at the end of the duration (higher before), and you'll be able to burst higher, but at the cost of more resources.

The synergy is also "off" as it doesn't truly change anything other than the total number of spells cast, or resources generated (a by product of spells cast), therefore the 1% doesn't translate the same.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Priest
10635
Just a quick question, when modeling mastery gains, would it be unreasonable to base gains off of % of mastery healing currently being done and % of mastery in combat?

For instance, say its doing 30% of your healing at 30% mastery. Adding 1.5% mastery would increase 30% of your healing by 5%, netting you 1.5% increase in healing? This would suggest that as you get higher into mastery you'd get diminishing returns?

What my math suggests at the moment is that keeping crit and mastery at the exact same percentage is what would net you the highest theoretical output because once one gets above the other the lower one will be increasing your theoretical output quicker.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]