The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Troll Druid
5660
The int vs spirit debate has been on my mind for some months now and I have heard rigorous and emotional debate but they only involved theories and concepts but no logical foundation.

I found this article a while back and it was very interesting and it even promoted the idea of logic and math as a foundation for solving the debate, yet it didn't produce either.
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2012/10/08/why-more-spirit-is-not-the-answer-to-your-healing-problems/

What I have below is a small experiment, it by no means encapsulates all of the scenarios by which intellect and spirit can be compared nor am I using it to solve the endless debate. I did this experiment to begin to understand healing in more logical terms. I understand healing is a very conditional thing that depends on many variables, most of them outside of the healers control. But I needed to at least do something empirical for my own soundness of mind.

This is just a start, and I am posting it in hopes of someone finding holes in the logic. Please post feedback pertaining to the math involved if there are any errors.

What I did was compare 847 intellect to 847 spirit by the use of two ilvl463 trinkets.

This may be confusing because I wanted to show all of the math involved so that it can be further critiqued

Spirit:
In the first scenario I have 6636 spirit, it took 155 seconds (in combat) to regen 300k mana.
300,000 / 155 seconds = 1935.48 mana / second

In the second scenario I have 7483 spirit, it took 146 seconds (in combat) to regen 300k mana.
300,000 / 146 seconds = 2054.79 mana / second

Spirit Difference = 847
Mana Regen Difference = 119.31 mana / second

Below, in the intellect section, is the calculation for how much HP 1 point of mana gives with rejuvenation.
With this equation in mind 119.31 mana = 1028.45hp.
119.31m * 8.62hp = 1028.45hp.

So the 847 spirit increase theoretically can give 1028.25 hp / second.

Intellect:
In the first scenario I have 16598 intellect.
Now we will calculate how much HP 1 point of mana gives with rejuvenation.
Rejuvenation = 15,006 hp / 2.79 seconds (no haste cap = 5 ticks)
Mana cost = 8700, 8700 / 5ticks = 1740m per 15,006hp
1 mana = 8.62hp
hp / second = 5,378.5

In the second scenario I have 17,487 intellect.
Rejuvenation = 15,389 / 2.79 seconds (no haste cap = 5 ticks)
Mana cost = 8700, 8700 / 5ticks = 1740m per 15,389
1 mana = 8.84hp
hp / second = 5515.77

Intellect Difference = 847
Difference in hp per second = 137.27hp/sec

Results:
With 847int I can gain 137.27hp/sec in extra healing
With 847spirit I can gain enough mana per second to buy 1028.25hp using rejuvenation.


I will do further experiments with a more substantial range of stats when, and if, I regem all of my Intellect to Spirit.
Edited by Annabélle on 4/5/2013 12:24 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Oh no.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
Oh no.


Two lions are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says, "Does this clown taste funny to you?"

Don't worry; puhhhhllllenty more where that came from.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I'm really not sure what you're after. You need to understand that Spirit does different things for different healers. There is no "perfect" level of Spirit for each healers. Playstyle, role in a raid, and the strength of your other raid healers will play as heavy of a role in how much Spirit you need as the class and spec you choose to play.

On some fights, you may choose to flask Int and eat Int food. On others you may choose to flask Spirit and eat Spirit food. I'm sure there are fights where some people would do a mix between the two (especially if they're on the edge of what their "comfort zone" is with Spirit). Longer fights tend to favor Spirit, and shorter fights tend to favor Int. The problem with that article is that it makes the statement that Spirit is never a good option for any fight regardless of class, spec, gear level, role in raid, raid size, strength of fellow healers, and playstyle. That's a really bad judgement call to make.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Did the OP just base his HPS increase from int based on a fight where he literally only maintains 1 rejuv at a time the entire fight and nothing else?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
Did the OP just base his HPS increase from int based on a fight where he literally only maintains 1 rejuv at a time the entire fight and nothing else?

Yes.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12580
Just speaking for myself here at this point in the expansion, since I have one of everything:

Disc - Throughput.

Paladin - Throughput for heavy tank healing biased fights, regen for anything else.

Shaman - Same as Paladin.

Druid - Throughput.

Mistweaver - Throughput.

Holy - Regen.

Healing is a team sport, and the enounter itself does not concern me - what concerns me is what I, specifically, am supposed to be doing in said encounter, and I set my character up to maximize that.

That said, it really just doesn't matter at the end of the day.

Riôt
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
04/05/2013 01:18 PMPosted by Kaels
Did the OP just base his HPS increase from int based on a fight where he literally only maintains 1 rejuv at a time the entire fight and nothing else?

Yes.

Thanks, for a second I thought I was overexposed at work to something mind-altering.

So OP... issues...
-If you want to figure out how much of a HPS boost Rejuv gets from Int, and you want to compare it to spirit... you have to assume you casted as many Rejuvs as possible.
-Int provides crit too. Gotta include that. As a shaman about 1/8th of Int's value came from spirit based on my numbers, but shaman's have resurgence and awakening.
-Rejuv isn't your most efficient spell. Unless you include the entire package of efficient spells and their healing you'll undervalue int.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
04/05/2013 01:18 PMPosted by Kaels
Did the OP just base his HPS increase from int based on a fight where he literally only maintains 1 rejuv at a time the entire fight and nothing else?

Yes.


This reminds me of part of the argument where Hamlet, fresh to 90 in October 2012 and wearing greens, originally wrote "in my pre-raid gear I have well under 10000 Int (remember that armor specialization and other % bonuses from talents should not be included here). So 1000 Int increases all of my healing by around 10%".
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13780
Just roll HPally and stumble blindly to victory. That's what I do.
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100 Tauren Druid
10140
A for effort.
D for results.
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90 Troll Druid
5660
Did the OP just base his HPS increase from int based on a fight where he literally only maintains 1 rejuv at a time the entire fight and nothing else?


I made it very clear that this experiment could not take into account all of the variables that healers face everyday or that it would be remotely realistic to actual combat, but of course I knew my disclaimers would be overlooked.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13170
^ Then why bother, honestly? If you know going into something the various variables in encounters, spec, and class would come into play why even do it in a "simple" environment in the first place? As someone said, A for effort and it's great you took the time to look it over but why?

Intellect and spirit will always be a debate among people for that reason. Too many variables.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Annabelle, I should apologize for my first off-the-cuff answer.

By way of background, we recently had a, well, let's say "discussion" about the very article you linked. It went south fairly quickly. I think it's great that you put the time, thought, and effort in attempting to measure this. Some of the folks here identified some shortcomings with what you were trying to do - maybe you can use that feedback in attempting to look at the issue again.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
Disc - Throughput.

Paladin - Throughput for heavy tank healing biased fights, regen for anything else.

Shaman - Same as Paladin.

Druid - Throughput.

Mistweaver - Throughput.

Holy - Regen.

Pretty good rules of thumb for the specs I'm familiar with. (keeping in mind that for Holy, regen is throughput, because Holy is basically a high-efficiency regen-throughput conversion machine.)
Edited by Kaels on 4/5/2013 2:09 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/05/2013 01:59 PMPosted by Veroicone
^ Then why bother, honestly? If you know going into something the various variables in encounters, spec, and class would come into play why even do it in a "simple" environment in the first place?


Oftentimes a complex model is more useless than a simple one. When you force some variables, it skews it more by ignoring others.

But there's always frictionless physics.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Disc - Throughput.

Paladin - Throughput for heavy tank healing biased fights, regen for anything else.

Shaman - Same as Paladin.

Druid - Throughput.

Mistweaver - Throughput.

Holy - Regen.

Pretty good rules of thumb for the specs I'm familiar with. (keeping in mind that for Holy, regen is throughput, because Holy is basically a high-efficiency regen-throughput conversion machine.)


And we are talking about flasks and food only.

Not that you could tell from the title of Hamlet's oh-so-scholarly piece.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
04/05/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Annabélle
Did the OP just base his HPS increase from int based on a fight where he literally only maintains 1 rejuv at a time the entire fight and nothing else?


I made it very clear that this experiment could not take into account all of the variables that healers face everyday or that it would be remotely realistic to actual combat, but of course I knew my disclaimers would be overlooked.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
I was too busy to say more though. Come back!

Here is how I calculate the value of SP on my healing... (outdated but still relevant strategies on math)... but you can use it as a reasonable model for your own purposes, if you can follow the math that spews out of my scatterbrained mind.

Spell Power
SP (gains +1.1x in raids) Most spells have a base spell power equiv of about 11k. I have 30k SP already between gear and Earthliving
600SP on gear would be 660 SP in a raid which is a (41660/41000-1= 0.0161) or a 1.61% boost in healing.

Int
Int (2533.66Int = 1%crit, gains 1.05 mail, 1.05 kings, SP gains 1.1)
Gain 600 int would be 661.5 int or 727.65 SP (660 SP was 1.61% boost)... SP boost is 1.77%
Crit gain would 0.261% chance. 0.35% HPS gain based on crit's average value as a shaman.
Int = 2.12%

Spirit
I'm not going to list the shaman math b/c shaman healing is all CD'y.

As a druid what I would do is find a log of a fight where you had to heal really hard. If not logs then check recount/skada. You need 3 numbers, [Total Effective Healing], [average effective healing per tick of Rejuv] and [Fight Duration]
[average healing per rejuv tick]*[#of ticks per cast]*[extra casts per seconds of rejuv based on increased spirit]*[Fight duration] = [Additional Healing from Rejuv]
Now
100*[Additional Healing by Rejuv]/[Total Effective Healing] = %gain from 600 spirit
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92 Troll Druid
11230
The initial comparison is wrong. It's never been between intellect and spirit. Spirit is a secondary stat so the question is spirit vs mastery, crit or haste depending.

For a druid certainly throughout after a baseline amount of spirit (which is totally dependent upon the individual) but this is not so black and white as it first appears.

There are many high end 25 man druids who are indeed stacking spirit and or crit spamming rejuvenation wrath style. This seems to work well when you have pallies and priests absorbing everything and is in fact our number 1 spell. Even if it goes into OH since you're putting out more they will certainly fill the spaces in-between. Take the 4-pc t15 into account and it makes even more sense.

I wouldn't play like that in 10m but that doesn't mean it's wrong if it helps them to kill dragons.

That article is discussing the thought that the fix for one's mana troubles is to stack/use more spirit over throughput. He's simply talking about being more efficient in one's healing and he's absolutely correct concerning resto druids.
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90 Tauren Druid
11345
Each point of spirit is worth ~0.564 mp5 in combat, ignoring effects like MTT and rapture.

Take your gear off, note your spirit (stat tab: attributes) and combat regen (stat tab: spell). Put your gear on, note your spirit and combat regen. Take the difference in combat regen and divide by the difference in spirit.

Finding a mathematical value for how much each stat increases your throughput is far more tricky than the way you're going about it. You have to take into account a typical healing breakdown to determine your average hpm (healing per mana) on a given fight to determine spirit's efficiency. You also have to do the same for int, but take the spell coefficients into account instead.

Then the actual mechanics of the fight come into play. Sometimes a more powerful heal just means you get more overhealing. Similarly, sometimes that additional rejuv can't be placed efficiently

It's a lot of work to try to figure out what's "best", and if you rely on the results, you may end up forcing yourself into a style of play you're not comfortable with. The alternative approach is far more intuitive:
  • Play the way you're comfortable playing.
  • Find out how much spirit you need to support your playstyle for the most mana-intensive fight you have to do (by actually doing it, not using math).
  • Get that much spirit. Put the rest into your best throughput stats.
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