The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Dude, if someone goes by what you say is correct, and finds themselves completely OOM because they geared the way you told them to, that is not "comfortable." So then they add Spirit back until they feel like they can get through the fight. Does it involve all the math you apparently want? No. Does it work? Yes. Yes it does. It has worked for years.


The problem is that yes, maybe the stacking of Spirit worked. Or, it could be that your Mage finally figured out that void zones were bad. Or, it could be *that your spell selection was not as optimal as it could have been, and the real problem was your play and not your gear*.

You hear healers say they need more Spirit all the time. You *never* hear healers admit they could have probably played better.

I would prefer something along the lines of what I said previously, where they simply explained how much regen you get for each point of Spirit, and gave an explanation of how much mana that turns into over a particular period of time and let people decide from there. I don't need you, or anyone else, to tell me when I have "enough" Spirit. You don't know my raid, you don't know my playstyle, and you don't know the encounters I'm working on.


My problem with "spirit until comfortable" is it gives no information. It doesn't tell us roughly how much healing you're getting for that Spirit. It doesn't tell us how many Flash Heals you are getting for that Spirit. It doesn't give any information whatsoever upon which to make a decision.

I don't think we really need to see specific stat weights that include Spirit (you know, something along the lines of Int>Spi>Haste>Crit>Mastery) in guides. I would also be happy with a line that just gave information, as long as it was more than "spirit until comfortable". "Spirit until comfortable" leaves too much room for making up for shoddy play on the healer's part with excessive Spirit stacking.

I would agree to a line that simply gave some relevant information about the Spirit stats as long as it was put in context with the other stats and wasn't simply its own thing that you geared for separately. I don't think guides right now do a good enough job of pointing out what you lose when you stack Spirit.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12450
Sustaining our optimal AOE healing rotations for 8 minutes is quite unreasonable. I'm more concerned with the 30 second window. In that window, there's only so many POH's you can fit in before the damage stops and the raid gets topped off.

Then you're asking a question to which Spirit will never be the answer. Obviously, if you're talking about a 30-second window, throughput stats are going to give you more throughput, because it's physically impossible to OOM in 30 seconds. If you even want to consider the value of Spirit, you have to specify how long the fight is and how often these burst windows happen and how much healing is needed outside of them.

(the calculation I did, by the way, would be equally valid for an encounter with 30-second heavy burst windows about once a minute with mild to moderate AoE in between. On the other hand, it's an overestimate for an encounter where the burst happens every 2 minutes with mild to moderate AoE in between, and an underestimate for an encounter that alternates AoE burst and single-target pressure.)

But your original premise was a sustained healing, Garalon-style encounter. There aren't really any 'windows' in that healing environment - there are points where you need to burst a bit harder and points where you can lay off a bit because people are hovering near full, but there aren't any 'windows.' You can flex the timing of your healing to suit your class. And Spirit really shines there for Holy specifically and is remarkably easy to math.
Edited by Kaels on 4/8/2013 1:07 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
But your original premise was a sustained healing, Garalon-style encounter. There aren't really any 'windows' in that healing environment - there are points where you need to burst a bit harder and points where you can lay off a bit because people are hovering near full, but there aren't any 'windows.'


So could we say for a burst-lull-burst fight (eg Elegon) that throughput is theoretically better, while for a sustained damage fight (eg Garalon), you might want more Spirit?

Then you're asking a question to which Spirit will never be the answer. Obviously, if you're talking about a 30-second window, throughput stats are going to give you more throughput, because it's physically impossible to OOM in 30 seconds.


These are the kind of thoughts I'd like to see in guides more often. When is Spirit more useful? When is it less useful? That's something we can actually make testable hypotheses about.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/08/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Viena
It also doesn't help that his math isn't true in every situation. There are fights where I flask for Intellect, but there are fights where I flask for Spirit. I have stacks of both in my bags.


Ok this has been annoying me since I started posting over here.

Just because you are doing it does not mean its optimal. Just because you believe its optimal, doesnt make it optimal either. Just because you are 4/13 heroic doesn't mean it optimal. Just because someone who is 12/13 heroic is endorsing it does not mean it is optimal. They may be correct but because someone has a certain status doesn't make them right. Its really just irrelevant information and is a hindrance to meaningful discussion.

What makes it optimal is math and reasonable analysis of it application in real world settings.


And just because you have math that says your way is better doesn't make it better in an actual encounter, and it doesn't make it the optimal way for every healer in every raid in every situation. It's a two-way street. Math doesn't solve everything. As Sensations pointed out, healing is not a spreadsheet.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
These are the kind of thoughts I'd like to see in guides more often


Perhaps you are looking at the wrong guides.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Perhaps you are looking at the wrong guides.


http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t130898-disc_priest_mists_pandaria/

Fresh 90’s will want to stack as much spirit as possible until they reach a level of regen that is comfortable for their gameplay, and then pare back introducing throughput stats in its place.


http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130799-resto_mists_pandaria_5_2_a/

Otherwise, always choose an item of higher ilvl (and if possible, higher socket count) in each slot. You should opt for items that have both Int and Spirit, until you have reached a comfortable regen level, and then you can opt for items that have alternative secondary stats.


The Shaman guide does a decent job of specifically pointing out that you lose throughput when you stack Spirit. Go Shamans!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1251599-The-Serpent%E2%80%99s-Accord-A-Mistweaver-PvE-Guide-5-2

5.2. Spirit until satisfactory mana regeneration


These are all great guides, and their authors did a lot of fantastic work. Its a small thing really, but the theorycrafting community basically throws up its collective hands and says "do whatever you like!" when it comes to Spirit, with almost no discussion whatsoever.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8500
If you're gearing specifically for pure throughput and the bare minimum of spirit, think of it this way.

You're working out your budget for a month. You decide you'll pay all of your utilities, and then put the rest in a savings account that can't be accessed in the near future. You will not get any more money during the month besides what you've budgeted.

A week or so later, your dog eats something in the yard and has to go to the vet. (Raid !@#$s up) After taking your dog to the vet, you realize that you have no money to pay your dog's vet bill. Now, if you had kept that money and used it, you wouldn't be in this position.(more spirit).

The fact of the matter is life (and your raid) isn't perfect. At least the average one isn't. You have to have some way to adapt.

Now this isn't to say that the budget approach won't work. And some may argue that you could have been watching your dog more closely (the raid). Both of them are valid approaches, but in the words of someone anonymous... "%^-* happens." Animals get sick. Raiders !@#$ up. It's your job as the healer to prepare for that eventuality.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
04/08/2013 01:13 PMPosted by Tiriel


Ok this has been annoying me since I started posting over here.

Just because you are doing it does not mean its optimal. Just because you believe its optimal, doesnt make it optimal either. Just because you are 4/13 heroic doesn't mean it optimal. Just because someone who is 12/13 heroic is endorsing it does not mean it is optimal. They may be correct but because someone has a certain status doesn't make them right. Its really just irrelevant information and is a hindrance to meaningful discussion.

What makes it optimal is math and reasonable analysis of it application in real world settings.


And just because you have math that says your way is better doesn't make it better in an actual encounter, and it doesn't make it the optimal way for every healer in every raid in every situation. It's a two-way street. Math doesn't solve everything. As Sensations pointed out, healing is not a spreadsheet.


What makes it optimal is math and reasonable analysis of it application in real world settings.


I think you missed the underlined section.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Now this isn't to say that the budget approach won't work. And some may argue that you could have been watching your dog more closely (the raid). Both of them are valid approaches, but in the words of someone anonymous... "%^-* happens." Animals get sick. Raiders !@#$ up. It's your job as the healer to prepare for that eventuality.


The question is, what are you giving up for that extra bank account, and is it actually worth it?
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
04/08/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Ramayana
Perhaps you are looking at the wrong guides.


http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t130898-disc_priest_mists_pandaria/

Fresh 90’s will want to stack as much spirit as possible until they reach a level of regen that is comfortable for their gameplay, and then pare back introducing throughput stats in its place.


http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130799-resto_mists_pandaria_5_2_a/

Otherwise, always choose an item of higher ilvl (and if possible, higher socket count) in each slot. You should opt for items that have both Int and Spirit, until you have reached a comfortable regen level, and then you can opt for items that have alternative secondary stats.


The Shaman guide does a decent job of specifically pointing out that you lose throughput when you stack Spirit. Go Shamans!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1251599-The-Serpent%E2%80%99s-Accord-A-Mistweaver-PvE-Guide-5-2

5.2. Spirit until satisfactory mana regeneration


These are all great guides, and their authors did a lot of fantastic work. Its a small thing really, but the theorycrafting community basically throws up its collective hands and says "do whatever you like!" when it comes to Spirit, with almost no discussion whatsoever.


This is because it would be deeply stupid to run a bunch of sims, and then say "you should stack exactly 9500 spirit". That would be, you know, dumb. Because spirit is your longevity stat, not a stat that increases the size of your heals. And there are *way* too many variables to rigidly say "Healer Y should get as close to 9500 spirit as possible." You are inveighing against people that suggest gearing spirit until "comfortable", but it would be way worse if you read a guide suggesting a concrete number.

This is the reason why the focus in secondary stats in terms of math tends to be on which is better: mastery, crit, haste. And there are some very good guides out there that discuss such things.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
You're working out your budget for a month. You decide you'll pay all of your utilities, and then put the rest in a savings account that can't be accessed in the near future. You will not get any more money during the month besides what you've budgeted.

A week or so later, your dog eats something in the yard and has to go to the vet. (Raid !@#$s up) After taking your dog to the vet, you realize that you have no money to pay your dog's vet bill. Now, if you had kept that money and used it, you wouldn't be in this position.(more spirit).


That isnt an accurate analogy. You aren't accounting for any benefit of throughput which in that analogy is some how making every dollar worth more.

A slightly better yet not ideal analogy would be that you can either get $1000 a month and pay your bills weekly with interest, or get $800 a month but pay all your bills upfront and don't pay additional interest fees.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
This is because it would be deeply stupid to run a bunch of sims, and then say "you should stack exactly 9500 spirit". That would be, you know, dumb. Because spirit is your longevity stat, not a stat that increases the size of your heals. And there are *way* too many variables to rigidly say "Healer Y should get as close to 9500 spirit as possible." You are inveighing against people that suggest gearing spirit until "comfortable", but it would be way worse if you read a guide suggesting a concrete number.

This is the reason why the focus in secondary stats in terms of math tends to be on which is better: mastery, crit, haste. And there are some very good guides out there that discuss such things.


You aren't getting longevity when you stack Spirit. You're getting more healing. More Spirit = more Mana = More healing. Longevity is the myth here. You don't magically get more mana from Spirit if you stop casting (like you used to in the old days). Longevity comes from proper spell choice, not additional Spirit.

To turn it around, you could argue that Int/Crit/Mastery/Haste are "longevity" stats. They allow you to do more healing with each spell, which means you have to cast less often, which means you mana lasts longer.

Again, I'm not asking for a concrete number, as much as a more rational discussion backed up with data. I'd like to know just how many Flash Heals/Min I'm getting for that Spirit, and I'd like to know how much overall healing I'm giving up for those Flash Heals.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 1:50 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
You aren't getting longevity when you stack Spirit. You're getting more healing. More Spirit = more Mana = More healing.


The first sentence contradicts the last two.

Spirit provides in-combat mp5 (I forget exactly how much) per point of Spirit you have on top of your base.
Edited by Taymage on 4/8/2013 1:57 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
The first sentence contradicts the last two.


More mana != more longevity. You could cast 30 Flash Heals and OOM immediately or 500 Heal spells and OOM in 10 minutes. Its all about how you spend it (that is, spell choice).

Spirit provides in-combat mp5 (I forget exactly how much) per point of Spirit you have on top of your base.


about .56 mp5 per point of Spirit. Multiply that by the length of the fight and you get a lump sum of mana. No more, no less. Just because it gives it to you in small increments every 5 seconds doesn't mean that it is somehow different from the other stats. It gives healing, just like the others.

I'll acknowledge that there's an argument to be made for stacking Spirit more on some fights than others for various reasons (say, because you'd rather have 5 more Flash Heal casts than 5 million healing done). But you have to understand that Spirit is a throughput stat, just like all the others, and you have to realize what you're giving up when you stack it.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 2:02 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
To turn it around, you could argue that Int/Crit/Mastery/Haste are "longevity" stats. They allow you to do more healing with each spell, which means you have to cast less often, which means you mana lasts longer.


You keep saying this, but stacking Int/throughput stats simply do not provide enough additional output to function as a substitute for another spell cast. This assertion of yours have zero application in a raid setting.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
04/08/2013 01:58 PMPosted by Ramayana
More mana != more longevity.


Um, yes it does.

You could cast 30 Flash Heals and OOM immediately or 500 Heal spells and OOM in 10 minutes. Its all about how you spend it (that is, spell choice).


Fascinating. And who cares?

If I were to "cast 30 Flash Heals", but had 5000 less spirit, I'd OOM *even faster*
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12450
So could we say for a burst-lull-burst fight (eg Elegon) that throughput is theoretically better, while for a sustained damage fight (eg Garalon), you might want more Spirit?

Probably. It depends.

For burst/lull fights, you still need enough regen that you can make it through repeated bursts. And if you're a bursty class that has no trouble achieving the required peak output (e.g. Holy), it may very well be worth sacrificing some throughput for that regen.

For sustained fights, you still need enough output that people aren't dying by attrition. And if you're a class that has no trouble maintaining a steady output through a long fight (e.g. monks, druids), it may be worth sacrificing some regen for that throughput.

I think class is really more important than fight pattern in most cases. A holy priest, for instance, doesn't particularly care whether we have to alternate 100k HPS for 30 seconds and then 50k for 30 or just sustain 75k the whole fight - we're going to use the same exact spells and just distribute them a bit differently. There's never going to be an encounter that really stresses our burst capability to the point that we have to gear differently, because it would break druids.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
I wouldn't say spirit doesn't provide longevity. I would say Int spirit and applicable secondary stats all provide longevity.

This really depends on how you define longevity. Is longevity how long can I spam divine light? Then yes spirit gives you longevity and the other stats don't. Is longevity how long you can output 100k HPS then both throughput stats and regen stats provide longevity. Spirit does it through more mana, while throughput stats do it through more mana efficient spell casting.
Edited by Viena on 4/8/2013 2:24 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
10430

I don't even know what to say about this. You have very little control over your level of intellect. It's on all of your gear; you can't reforge into it; and with the advent of large budgets for secondary stats on gems, it's not worth gemming.

The *only* time there should be any discussion about intellect vs. spirit is with respect to food and flasks.


I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990

I don't even know what to say about this. You have very little control over your level of intellect. It's on all of your gear; you can't reforge into it; and with the advent of large budgets for secondary stats on gems, it's not worth gemming.

The *only* time there should be any discussion about intellect vs. spirit is with respect to food and flasks.


I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.


. . .

You're a shadow priest.
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