The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.


Lol, please post your Disc logs.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/8/2013 2:55 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
04/08/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Ceddya
I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.


Lol, please post your Disc logs.


I wonder if she was healing in her two piece tier 14 shadow set, and her +hit gear.
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90 Undead Priest
7425
I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.


What is it that you "do"?

How do you know it's correct, or even optimal?
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100 Human Warrior
12280
So the question is:

Would you rather have 5 more FH casts, for a total of 375,000 healing,

Or:

5 million more healing done over the whole fight?


The problem I have with using math like this is that it largely ignores the way that Blizzard now designs their encounters and corresponding outgoing damage. Although the triage model was a nice pipe dream, the truth is that in any relevant content, this doesn't exist.

Due to the natural limitations on our spell selection, there is no way to play at 100% efficiency (i.e. no overheal, always using highest HPM abilities, etc.) If anyone in the raid has any health deficit that doesn't correspond precisely to the healing values of my various abilities, then there is going to be some inefficiency, no matter which spell I choose.

Of course, this could be circumvented by never topping anyone off. However, Blizzard encounters largely don't allow for this kind of triage healing. Whether the damage is unavoidable or incidental, people who aren't topped off die frequently enough for the smart better to err on the side of topping people off. Thus, hardly ever is that mathed-out theoretical boost in throughput going to be used to its full efficiency. Accordingly, positing the choice as 5 million healing vs. 375k healing is misleading at best.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be endeavoring to make our playstyles more efficient. I'm merely arguing (and I think probably echoing much of what has already been said) that given a 150k health deficit, a 200k GH, and a 90k Heal (numbers completely made up for the sake of argument), Heal is not always going to be the "best" choice.

Now, if you're EXTREMELY bored and patient, you may be able to math out the best decision for each and every hypothetical situation in the game. However, I hardly think it's practical (and even possible, considering differing damage patterns within individual boss fights) to expect someone to completely change their gearing for each and every damage pattern in the game.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/08/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Darthsiddeus
I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.


What is it that you "do"?

How do you know it's correct, or even optimal?


She smites. And that is essentially all that she does.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515


I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.


. . .

You're a shadow priest.

(checks)

item level 502/514...
mostly LFR gear...
has a bunch of current-tier parses as Disc, and none as Shadow (http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/mal%27ganis/multicidez/)...

Yeah, that's an offspec.

Not saying s/he's right. Just saying s/he's a disc priest.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930


. . .

You're a shadow priest.

(checks)

item level 502/514...
mostly LFR gear...
has a bunch of current-tier parses as Disc, and none as Shadow (http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/mal%27ganis/multicidez/)...

Yeah, that's an offspec.

Not saying s/he's right. Just saying s/he's a disc priest.


She has logs, not parses. She's parsed once, on WoE normal as....Shadow.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
She has logs, not parses. She's parsed once, on WoE normal as....Shadow.

You mean ranked, I think. Parses are just logs that have been analyzed.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
She is gemmed and reforged for shadow, is wearing heroic gear optimized for shadow, and has a two piece shadow set.

Her use of intellect gems has nothing to do with healing, but is an artifact of the fact the is a caster dps.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
She is gemmed and reforged for shadow, is wearing heroic gear optimized for shadow, and has a two piece shadow set.

Her use of intellect gems has nothing to do with healing, but is an artifact of the fact the is a caster dps.


I don't know what gear she's using, but her logs are all Disc from what I can tell. However, her Disc gear appears to be (according to wow-heroes anyway) 491 vs. the 503 on her main (Shadow) set.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8835
I don't even know what to say about this. You have very little control over your level of intellect. It's on all of your gear; you can't reforge into it; and with the advent of large budgets for secondary stats on gems, it's not worth gemming.

The *only* time there should be any discussion about intellect vs. spirit is with respect to food and flasks.

I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.

While I tend to agree that gemming straight int might not be the best route in general, there may be more to the story then everyone assumes. What if your goal is to provide as much smite dps as possible? Socketing Int will help there. What if your raid role is to provide burst? Int fits that bill as well.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
However, her Disc gear appears to be (according to wow-heroes anyway) 491 vs. the 503 on her main (Shadow) set.

That's almost certainly out of date. She has 514 gear sitting in her bags, we can tell that just from the Armory page. Can't guarantee it's Disc gear, but...well, it's not like it could be Prot gear.

She is gemmed and reforged for shadow, is wearing heroic gear optimized for shadow, and has a two piece shadow set.

Her use of intellect gems has nothing to do with healing, but is an artifact of the fact the is a caster dps.

She apparently has a completely separate shadow set consisting mostly of LFR gear, MSV normal gear, and 3 pieces of tier. That's not what someone who was farming 8/16 t14H for about 2 months would be wearing in their main spec.

Check her feed for a rundown of the gear she has and is not wearing:
Handwraps of the Exorcist
Bracers of Shielding Thought
Mantle of the Exorcist
Ring of the Shado-Pan Assault
...yeah. That's a disc priest in offspec gear. Just because it's good offspec gear doesn't make it not offspec gear.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
I don't even know what to say about this. You have very little control over your level of intellect. It's on all of your gear; you can't reforge into it; and with the advent of large budgets for secondary stats on gems, it's not worth gemming.

The *only* time there should be any discussion about intellect vs. spirit is with respect to food and flasks.

I gem straight Int as much as I can and it is absolutely correct for what I do. You should strongly reconsider making statements like the one you just made.

While I tend to agree that gemming straight int might not be the best route in general, there may be more to the story then everyone assumes. What if your goal is to provide as much smite dps as possible? Socketing Int will help there. What if your raid role is to provide burst? Int fits that bill as well.


This isn't even controversial. Gems have double the budget for secondary stats as they do for primary stats.
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100 Undead Priest
10430

Lol, please post your Disc logs.


http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/116859/

What is it that you "do"?

How do you know it's correct, or even optimal?


6th DPS / 3rd Healer.

Last tier I was Shadow full time and we just 2 healed everything. This tier, at least on normals, there is no need to bring a 6th DPS but there is a great advantage to bringing a 3rd healer due to healing cooldowns, Dispels, fight mechanics, and a general safety net.

Most of the time I spam Atonement. Is it optimal? I'm not going to argue that. I don't see a real point in me spamming "real" healing when the other 2 healers are wholy capable of handling most of that without me or in combination with my Atonement. What I do know is there's no point in me stacking Spirit when I don't run OOM, and that Int is going to provide a real benefit to what I'm doing.

That being said I am not opposed to running more Spirit if it is demanded of me. This is just adapting to the situation.

Do note that I'm not concluding this is right for everyone. The whole point is that our stat choice shouldn't ever be set in stone as one is better than the other, nor should we jump to conclusions that are simply not true (ex: you should never gem for Int!). Circumstance is very important.

EDIT - And my Disc gear is like 510 for those of you who care. My offspec weapon is 522 and it artificially bumps up my overall item level, but the hit is worthless so I use 504 weapon as Disc. There are a few other items that do the same thing.
Edited by Multicidez on 4/8/2013 4:15 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
Its a small thing really, but the theorycrafting community basically throws up its collective hands and says "do whatever you like!" when it comes to Spirit, with almost no discussion whatsoever.


Well, you kind of have to ask why they take this approach. I'd agree ultimately it boils down to the math, even when you're compensating for unexpected variables which may come up. With enough math, knowledge of the encounter, knowledge of spell selection, etc, you could get pretty close to saying "this is the best way to gear for this encounter".

The concern I have with all of the above is all encounters are not created equal. Chances are the absolute best way to handle one encounter is not identical to the absolute best way to handle another encounter. This means identifying the perfect way to gear requires going through all of the math for each and every encounter. Hence the reason "spirit to comfort" is thrown around. It's easier to make a semi-educated guess at what you should be gearing before entering the encounter (based on wipes to the fight and other variables, such as personal responsibilities in the encounter, etc). For this reason it's often the path chosen.
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Spirit just won't give you enough additional healing.

Neither, of course, will stacking throughput, because it is true that in the large scheme of things stats don't make as big of a difference as spell selection .....
[ .... ]
Should she stack more Spirit or more throughput?


Am I the only one who sees the issue here?

04/08/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Ramayana
Hamlet uses a conversion of 10% Healing = 1000 Int in that first article.


This is bad math on Hamlet's part. He's simply wrong about that. I can do the math after i catch up on the thread.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
Spirit just won't give you enough additional healing.

Neither, of course, will stacking throughput, because it is true that in the large scheme of things stats don't make as big of a difference as spell selection .....
[ .... ]
Should she stack more Spirit or more throughput?


Am I the only one who sees the issue here?

04/08/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Ramayana
Hamlet uses a conversion of 10% Healing = 1000 Int in that first article.


This is bad math on Hamlet's part. He's simply wrong about that. I can do the math after i catch up on the thread.


Good luck making through this thread sane! I swear, some of the statements had me facepalming pretty damn hard.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Due to the natural limitations on our spell selection, there is no way to play at 100% efficiency (i.e. no overheal, always using highest HPM abilities, etc.) If anyone in the raid has any health deficit that doesn't correspond precisely to the healing values of my various abilities, then there is going to be some inefficiency, no matter which spell I choose.


Blizzard builds a little slack into all their classes. If I happen to refresh Tiger Palm in a way that causes the GCD to clip my RSK cooldown, its a DPS loss, but one that is very slight, and will probably be made up for by autoattack crits, if nothing else. Similarly, healers have a lot of overhealing built in so that they don't have to be super careful about "fitting" spells to damage. Monk, for instance, has egregious amounts of overheal built into ReM and Uplfit, which is why we're so good for ticking aura fights. POH is still worth casting even it will only heal 3 targets (that's 40% overhealing).

One of the reasons they increased health pool size so drastically in Cata and MoP is to counter the myth that all crit just becomes overhealing. It still persists, but just isn't true anymore.

If players have a health deficit that doesn't correspond to your abilities, and there isn't going to be any damage taken for awhile, maybe you shouldn't cast at all, or maybe you should just cast an efficient single target heal on each of them (Heal, Soothing Mist, etc)

Of course, this could be circumvented by never topping anyone off. However, Blizzard encounters largely don't allow for this kind of triage healing. Whether the damage is unavoidable or incidental, people who aren't topped off die frequently enough for the smart better to err on the side of topping people off. Thus, hardly ever is that mathed-out theoretical boost in throughput going to be used to its full efficiency. Accordingly, positing the choice as 5 million healing vs. 375k healing is misleading at best.


This just isn't true. People don't die because they weren't topped off. People die because they are Bufforz and they stack for Caw. If somebody's at 60% health, then yeah, you should probably heal them. If there's damage incoming in the next 2 seconds that will kill them, then yeah, you should probably Flash Heal them. If there's more time, a Greater Heal or Heal is probably fine. But if they're sitting at 80% health, and its 15 seconds until quills, there's no need to rush around trying to desperately top everyone off. Wait for your Circle of Healing to come off CD and heal them then.

People slam their fastest heals to top off people they don't really need to top off, doing a lot of overhealing in the process, wonder why their mana is disappearing right and left, stack Spirit out the wazoo, then don't have enough throughput to get through high damage phases, causing them to burn MORE mana trying desperately to keep up with damage, causing them to stack MORE spirit...its a vicious cycle.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be endeavoring to make our playstyles more efficient. I'm merely arguing (and I think probably echoing much of what has already been said) that given a 150k health deficit, a 200k GH, and a 90k Heal (numbers completely made up for the sake of argument), Heal is not always going to be the "best" choice.


I never said that or was trying to imply that. I personally think Priests waste a lot of mana trying to use Heal in situations where they'd really be better off waiting for say, Penance or Circle of Healing to come off CD. Its been awhile since I looked, but the difference in HPM IIRC between Greater and Heal isn't that significant, so the "best practice" with Greater and Heal is to just cast the one that "fits" the size of the health deficit.

And also to complain about how both spells heal for 15% less than they should because, hey, Chakra is cool, right?

This is bad math on Hamlet's part. He's simply wrong about that. I can do the math after i catch up on the thread.


My point isn't the math itself, just that you can do math on this subject and come up with answers that matter.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/9/2013 3:44 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
People slam their fastest heals to top off people they don't really need to top off, doing a lot of overhealing in the process, wonder why their mana is disappearing right and left, stack Spirit out the wazoo, then don't have enough throughput to get through high damage phases, causing them to burn MORE mana trying desperately to keep up with damage, causing them to stack MORE spirit...its a vicious cycle.

Pretty sure absolutely nobody you're talking to here is spamming Flash Heals that aren't absolutely necessary. You only ever try that once on a priest.

There is a role of spell selection and timing for people having mana issues, but for holy priests that usually takes the form of casting the right spells, but at times when you could get away with not casting. It's rarely spell selection. If you can't figure out the spell selection, you give up on this spec long before you even make it into a raid.

(There may be other specs where Flash-type spam is an issue. But you're using priest examples.)

I never said that or was trying to imply that. I personally think Priests waste a lot of mana trying to use Heal in situations where they'd really be better off waiting for say, Penance or Circle of Healing to come off CD.

Disc priests don't cast Heal. Any disc priest competent enough to read the forums knows to use Atonement. It is vaguely possible that they could be Smiting too much.

Holy priests may overuse Heal. It's seductive - there's a spell on your bar that doesn't make all your mana disappear right away! We can get twitchy, especially when we don't know what's coming, and start nervously fidgeting with Heal or Renew or casting PoH at lower-priority times. But fixing that problem isn't really a matter of using a more efficient spell - it's a matter of learning the encounter well enough to know what damage doesn't actually need to be healed by a holy priest.

(That's the thing with Holy mana management: the question is not "does this damage need to be healed?" or even "does this damage need to be healed right now?" but "does this damage need to be healed right now by me?" Increasing available mana allows us to say 'yes' to less critical damage, which becomes important in harder content or with fewer healers, where 'less critical' may still be quite critical.)
Its been awhile since I looked, but the difference in HPM IIRC between Greater and Heal isn't that significant, so the "best practice" with Greater and Heal is to just cast the one that "fits" the size of the health deficit.

You're thinking of Cata. In MoP, Heal is significantly more efficient than Greater Heal.
Edited by Kaels on 4/9/2013 9:27 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
My point isn't the math itself, just that you can do math on this subject and come up with answers that matter.


Your "point" appears to be exceedingly fluid. It has shifted more times than the San Andreas Fault.

Also:

People don't die because they weren't topped off.


LOL.
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