The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Troll Priest
9550
The issue I see with this entire thread is that some people here just want to follow majority or follow what some random dude says who you've never seen heal so you have no idea if he's even good.

In my opinion YOU know what you need to survive a fight and be able to maximize throughput, not anyone else.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Key difference between Kaels and Ceddya talents, and how they experience mana differently as holy...
Ceddya is using Solace. It uses a lot of GCD's, and also provides additional smart healing that scales with int.
Kaels is using Mindbender. Uses almost no GCDs.

The holy priest in my guild swears by the fact that every holy priest he's ever talked to who has complained about mana since 5.2 has been mindbender'ing. Having 10-13% of your active time be casting Solace will seriously cut down on your ability to dump extra mana, which can impact how you gear.
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90 Human Priest
13720
I don't know how the calculations work out exactly, but keep in mind that even someone like me is already at a point where unbuffed int is .5x greater than spirit. UNBUFFED. And I don't gem any pure int at this point... actually considering changing some more of my pure spirit gems to hybrids just for the extra other secondaries... at least as disc.

e: solace isn't as big of a handicap as you think it is. even if you cast it on cd you can't even cast it 10 times in a minute. just cast it more often than once every 20 seconds and you should be fine. plus, solace is great for healing downtime or lulls to give extra regen, even as holy (From my limited holy experience this expansion).
Edited by Tsilyi on 4/10/2013 6:32 AM PDT
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Here's the way I do it. I prefer to have spirit on every item unless having spirit on it prevents me from having intellect on it (trinkets for example). I use intellect + spirit gems in all sockets unless I want the bonus (most of the time I'll take the bonus, regardless of what it is. Free stats, might as well). Then I'll use intellect + spirit for red and blue sockets, and intellect + mastery for yellow (since I play disc). I would do the same as holy except I would replace int + mastery with int + haste.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Key difference between Kaels and Ceddya talents, and how they experience mana differently as holy...
Ceddya is using Solace. It uses a lot of GCD's, and also provides additional smart healing that scales with int.
Kaels is using Mindbender. Uses almost no GCDs.


I wouldn't look at my talents as indications for anything. I'm practically shifting between Disc and Holy for each boss, while reforging and changing my talents as needed. I only pick Solace on fights that allow me to fit in the optimal number of Shadowfiends and with high movement like Durumu or with periods of high downtime.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/10/2013 7:21 AM PDT
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93 Draenei Shaman
5610
[Somehow a post I intended for another thread got posted here by accident. Removing it and reposting it where it belongs.]
Edited by Akatia on 4/10/2013 7:22 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
The issue I see with this entire thread is that some people here just want to follow majority or follow what some random dude says who you've never seen heal so you have no idea if he's even good.

In my opinion YOU know what you need to survive a fight and be able to maximize throughput, not anyone else.


Hamlet is a long time EJ poster and Resto Druid theorycrafter. He also has a pretty long and well-thought-out series of posts. I've never seen him heal, no, BUT he is not just some random dude.

Just because, say, Warriors have never seen Landsoul DPS, doesn't mean they shouldn't follow his advice :P

Anyway, once we have some better maths, you won't have to choose between the majority or follow some random dude. We'll have data that spells out pretty clearly what our choices are and we can make *informed* choices ourselves.

Kaels, theoretically, that 10 min encounter would be the *Best* situation for Spirit. I was imagining the best way to develop this model would be to put things on a continuum:

30 sec burst window-------------------------------------------------------------------10 min Garalon

Theoretically, as you move left to right, Spirit would get gradually better. I wonder how Spirit would do in the middle, in a fight that had, say, 30 second burst windows that occurred with 1 minute gaps in between that required just a little spot healing (I'm thinking of something like Ji-Kun again, where you still have to deal with Caw, and heal the tanks, in addition to healing Quills).
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
30 sec burst window-------------------------------------------------------------------10 min Garalon


The issue is that there are no fights with a 30 second burst window only. The closest analogue would be Megaera and Rampages, but even that has rather substantial single target healing requirements in between. It's definitely not a fight to skimp on Spirit.

While a Holy Priest could get away with less Spirit gems or reforge out of Spirit on Ji-kun, the next few bosses (Primordius, Qon, Consorts) all feature high raid damage that necessitate rather high amounts of Spirit (i.e. you will be chain casting regardless of your stat priority). Do you really think it's practical to expect a Holy Priest to regem/reforge just for one encounter where the marginally extra output from stacking throughput stats isn't necessary? The issue of practicality is one that's often overlooked.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/10/2013 8:02 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
e: solace isn't as big of a handicap as you think it is. even if you cast it on cd you can't even cast it 10 times in a minute. just cast it more often than once every 20 seconds and you should be fine. plus, solace is great for healing downtime or lulls to give extra regen, even as holy (From my limited holy experience this expansion).

I never called it a handicap. Much like PoM and CoH though, it'll have higher priority than PoH.
Let's say a priest has 10% haste raid buffed...
They'll have 1.36 sec GCDs.
Let's assume their priority is PoM=CoH=Cascade>Solace>PoH spam...
Roughly 4.64 seconds of casting every 10 seconds goes towards spells on CD's.
5.36 seconds free for PoH casting every 10 seconds

Let's assume mindbender...
Let's assume their priority is PoM=CoH=Cascade>Mindbender>PoH spam...
Roughly 3.51 seconds of casting every 10 seconds goes towards spells on CD's.
6.49 seconds free for PoH casting every 10 seconds

Someone who takes mindbender will have roughly 21% more "free time" than someone who takes Solace and uses it on CD. (once again, I'm not insulting solace, I'm just saying that having another awesome short CD ability impacts your ability to dump mana... at the same time the fact that a priest can still dump their mana even with less "free time" with full spirit gems is not something I can argue for/against since I haven't healed ToT as a priest)
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
04/10/2013 07:34 AMPosted by Ramayana
Hamlet is a long time EJ poster and Resto Druid theorycrafter.


The math in his post was also *wrong*

But congrats on slavishly following somebody because of the guild he is in.
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90 Human Priest
13720
Ah, I see what you're getting at, Pitkanen. That being said, at least in my experience from a 25 man point of view, I rarely would even use CoH unless on the move because it doesn't seem to heal enough for the mana requirement (especially glyphed... I wouldn't even bother glyphing it, even in 25 man. others may have a different opinion)

Regardless, though, you're correct about solace being a bit limiting on time, even with the removal of the 1.5 second gcd time for coh (if needed) every 8 or so seconds.

The other thing I would mention is consider that (as you know) not every encounter is a vacuum and you don't have to cast certain spells on cd. In fact, the only one I would be casting on cd (likely) is Prayer of Mending... so there should often be more room to inject solace. give it a shot on your priest sometime! I was skeptical at first too. :)

Tay, have you checked out this post yet? It's an interesting read and quite a bit less "mathy" It's more of an exploratory nature, and I enjoyed it:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2013/03/15/healing-theory-part-3-mana-and-other-resources/

I'm not going to bother "taking sides" on this kind of argument because I think it's relatively futile, but we should certainly feel free to discuss and even motivate ourselves to always be thinking and trying new ideas. I remember back when rapture was % total mana or something back in ToC and I was stacking INT out the wazoo, a friend pointed out that I could drop back down to about 30k mana and start dumping into int and I was amazed to find out I felt I could heal a lot more comfortably that way without going oom. We should always be open to experimenting.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/10/2013 07:34 AMPosted by Ramayana
Hamlet is a long time EJ poster and Resto Druid theorycrafter.


And this matters why exactly?

His math was wrong. He hasn't seen current content. And he's saying that what works for him as a Resto Druid is the same for everyone.

No, sorry, I'm not buying it. His post and statements do not match my experiences.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
Tay, have you checked out this post yet? It's an interesting read and quite a bit less "mathy" It's more of an exploratory nature, and I enjoyed it:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2013/03/15/healing-theory-part-3-mana-and-other-resources/


Yes, thank you Tsilyi. Alashe pointed me to his later posts and indicated they were good. A few pages back Hamlet posted and appeared to concede, at least in part, that there were errors of some kind in his October 2012 post. He also said he was happier with his newer posts.

But his post from October 2012 needs to either be edited and re-titled, or it needs to stop being cited.

Edit: I also agree that not every situation calls for stacking spirit to the exclusion of other stats, whether we are talking about other secondary stats or about intellect. I just happen to find the following things annoying:

(1) posts that belittle healers for wanting spirit;
(2) posts that belittle healers for not thinking mathematically, while simultaneously fudging numbers;
(3) posts that purport to be scholarly analyses, but ignore nearly a dozen important variables;
(4) posts along the lines of "this one time while I was healing herioc ToT in my ilvl 520 gear, I never came close to going OOM, therefore all healers should stack 'throughput' and ditch spirit"
(5) posts that ignore differences between classes
(6) posts that ignore differences between specs
(7) posts that belittle allegedly "squishy" advice (such as "stack as much spirit as makes you comfortable"), yet provide zero concrete or practical guidance about how to stack "throughput" (whatever that means)
Edited by Taymage on 4/10/2013 9:33 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12155
Key difference between Kaels and Ceddya talents, and how they experience mana differently as holy...
Ceddya is using Solace. It uses a lot of GCD's, and also provides additional smart healing that scales with int.
Kaels is using Mindbender. Uses almost no GCDs.

The holy priest in my guild swears by the fact that every holy priest he's ever talked to who has complained about mana since 5.2 has been mindbender'ing. Having 10-13% of your active time be casting Solace will seriously cut down on your ability to dump extra mana, which can impact how you gear.

I actually use Solace most of the time, although I'm debating Bender on Megaera. I literally just switched to Mindbender last night to verify its mana return because Wowhead was being odd.

That said, if you wanted to armory troll me as if I were talking about personal mana issues (I don't have issues, mostly because I don't heal unless we need an 0.5 healer), I would have thought you'd have picked on my 320 haste gems, 2p Shadow tier, DPS trinkets, ilvl 495 equipped, schizophrenic gemming/reforging, and 7121 Spirit. Pretty sure all of those are more important than the rather minimal difference between Solace and Mindbender on regen.

As far as Solace limiting your free time: Keep in mind how little time my hypothetical priest is actually spending casting. The Inner Will priest casts 159 instant spells, 4 8-second channels, and 27-32 PoHs in 10 minutes - that's 304-315 seconds of active time out of 600 total seconds. Adding another 3000 Spirit would give you another ~34 seconds of cast time, so we're looking at about 350 seconds uptime at 14000 Spirit. Casting straight PoH rather than the instants can slow your mana consumption, but you're still only going to get up to around 400-440 seconds out of 600.

Reality is somewhere between the two; nobody uses all the instants perfectly on CD, but nobody ignores them entirely. So adding another 60 GCDs = 80 seconds to that 350-400 seconds of active time...really isn't going to put a whole lot of pressure on you.

So basically, another GCD here and there is going to do effectively nothing to keep you from running out of mana (aside from the additional mana regen it provides), but having to use it can inconvenience you a bit.

Which is why I'm contemplating Mindbender for Megaera. I only heal the last two heads anyway, so it's moderately challenging to OOM.
Edited by Kaels on 4/10/2013 9:58 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/10/2013 09:20 AMPosted by Taymage
But his post from October 2012 needs to either be edited and re-titled, or it needs to stop being cited.


Give it a rest, man.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
04/10/2013 09:39 AMPosted by Aurinaux
But his post from October 2012 needs to either be edited and re-titled, or it needs to stop being cited.


Give it a rest, man.


Hey, next time Tsilyi asks me a question, will you be sure to pop in and let me know if I have your permission to respond? Thx.
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90 Human Priest
13720
I would have thought you'd have picked on my 320 haste gems, 2p Shadow tier, DPS trinkets, schizophrenic gemming/reforging, and 7121 Spirit.


NO EXCUSES. YOU WILL TAKE THE TALENTS I TELL YOU TO OR YOU WILL PERISH.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/10/2013 09:42 AMPosted by Taymage
Hey, next time Tsilyi asks me a question, will you be sure to pop in and let me know if I have your permission to respond? Thx.


If Hamlet changes the title, can we move forward?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12155
04/10/2013 09:44 AMPosted by Tsilyi
I would have thought you'd have picked on my 320 haste gems, 2p Shadow tier, DPS trinkets, schizophrenic gemming/reforging, and 7121 Spirit.


NO EXCUSES. YOU WILL TAKE THE TALENTS I TELL YOU TO OR YOU WILL PERISH.

/cower
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90 Human Priest
11345
That being said, I feel like you want to take a side... which side would you pick? I understand that you have over 10 item levels on me, but you don't gem for pure intellect anywhere, and neither do I. I have considered it but haven't felt like it was necessary. I choose to flask Int and eat Int food because I am comfortable with the amount of regen I have at the time, not by any mathematical formula, but just because I know how I heal and am constantly trying to figure ways to do it more efficiently or better.


Preamble: this post is entirely in reference to discipline.

At various points I have been gemmed full spirit, full intellect, and even full crit (during the time when PoM was bugged and critting for ludicrous amounts). Whose side I'm on depends on what exactly the argument is, as I don't think both sides have even managed to agree on that. My position can be summed up as:

Math will tell you what is optimal in terms of total output over the course of a fight given an accurate model. This still leaves a number of very important questions though:

1. How accurate is the model to what you are actually casting?
2. How big is the difference between "optimal" and doing it "wrong" (and if this difference is small enough, can you really call it wrong)?
3. Is total output what matters, or do you have to gear around specific requirements of the fight? Tiriel's (sorry if I remembered the wrong person) "I have to spam PW:S because people are too grouped up and might get oneshot" on Ji-kun was a pretty good example of this - other forms of healing won't stop people from being oneshot so total throughput doesn't matter; in this situation you have to cast PW:S (or spirit shell if it is up). You could argue that the raid should play better and not be grouped up, but that doesn't change that if the raid is going to take that form of damage you need enough mana to blanket them in PW:S. If you get to the point where you can do this, then you are back into the realm of "throughput vs additional spirit" but fight mechanics can establish a minimum required spirit if you actually have to cast a certain way and no other way will do. Another good example of this (which would drive you in the opposite direction, towards throughput) would be a fight with light damage followed by a really heavy burn phase.

I happen to like math and optimization problems in general (who would have guessed?), so I've spent some time pondering these questions.

The difference between full int gemming and full spirit gemming in my current gear is 1576 intellect (vs double that in spirit). 1576 intellect represents just under 5% increase in healing for me, while 3152 spirit is between 2961 mp5 (assuming 20 second raptures) and 3355 mp5 (15 second raptures). (If you get rapture consistently lower than 15 seconds over an entire encounter you're some sort of robot, and also probably very lucky as tank avoidance / cds tend to slow rapture returns.) From this it should be obvious that if intellect is optimal, it won't be by a huge amount (certainly much less than accounting for differences in player skill). This in itself is already a pretty large argument in favor of gemming spirit - it's more forgiving of player error and the opportunity cost isn't that high.

Wtf, apparently this post is really long and exceeded the character limit. On to part 2...
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