The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Human Priest
11345
...continued

Based on a (fairly accurate) model of what I cast, spirit gemming also wins at total output for discipline when comparing 1 int to 2 spirit. If you want sustained throughput in a mana limited environment (anything other than short fights or fights which grant you infinite resources), 320 spirit will give you more total healing than 160 intellect. My first paragraph (where I said I have been gemmed fully intellect) might seem a bit strange after saying that. The reasoning is this: on some (many?) fights the damage patterns are such that you can spend the majority of the fight getting rapture, keeping pom up, and spamming atonement - you only switch into "maximum throughput" mode at a couple points during the encounter. Once you have enough mana to sustain max throughput during those periods and a fairly efficient atonement rotation outside of it, you don't really need more regen, but you can do more healing (and extend the window of what atonement spam will cover) by gemming for throughput. There have been a few fights where enrage was so tight that what I actually wanted out of the intellect was damage (our first Gara'jal heroic kill was right at enrage; he died as he oneshot the raid and everyone was dead, including him).

I still get slightly more out of an int flask compared to a spirit flask (converting extra spirit into more PoH's isn't quite as efficient as it first appears because, well, PoH sucks - additional PoH casts tend to overheal a lot compared to our other spells) but again it's quite close. From a more practical standpoint, with spirit gems and actually pressing my regen buttons on CD, I cannot really run out of mana ever so more spirit would be kind of silly. I do have a bunch of 160 int gems and 320 spirit gems I swap out for fights where I don't need as much spirit (alt is a JC so I buy greens and spam cut them for perfects; it's pretty cheap).

As an addendum:
I raided last night with full intellect gems including burning meta (although, this isn't entirely out of the ordinary for me as I mentioned earlier). I still flasked and ate int food. If our logs were public, I would have the #6 overall rank on Council (the only really relevant fight healingwise) with 108k hps - I've done heroic council several times now with different levels of spirit (the lowest being just over 8k spirit, but that was when PoM crits were bugged so all you had to do in order to do infinity healing was press PoM on cd and let it full heal people and leave a 200k DA) always ending up just over 100k hps: due to the zero sum nature of healing that's how much is needed to keep us alive. I would not try and argue that intellect gemming is easier, but if you are good at managing your regen cds it is definitely possible in specific situations.

For most discipline priests though, it isn't worth it.
Edited by Amabella on 4/10/2013 12:29 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
13720
Forgive me for responding to such a long and well thought out post with so little. The reasoning you use to grab a lot of spirit is very similar to mine. The change in int just isn't drastic enough to warrant gemming int when disc especially gets a lot more benefit from spirit. While I stop short of gemming pure spirit for a lot of the time, I do prefer to gem it due to the fact that Disc, still being a pre-emptive spec has a high risk reward mechanic in the idea that sometimes you prepare for damage that is a) less than you expect or b) doesn't actually happen when you expect or want it to. Sometimes your boss timers are off and ji-kun does feed young, then waits an eternity to cast quills! Things of that nature.

I guess that wasn't such a short response. But thanks for such a detailed response to my question. I definitely believe you and I think in similar ways.
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90 Human Priest
11345
04/10/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Tsilyi
The change in int just isn't drastic enough to warrant gemming int when disc especially gets a lot more benefit from spirit.


Yeah, I agree that this is pretty much what it boils down to. In comparison, on my paladin I gem throughput (in the form of mastery) as the returns from spirit are nowhere near as strong as they are for disc and holy paladin mastery is ridiculously good.
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90 Human Priest
13720
I think we can all agree that holy paladin mastery is extremely disgusting. I should level my alt paladin and fool around with it.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13390
I always considered it this way when I was healing:

If I can indirectly convert extra regen into more spellcasts later in the fight (and thus use it for extra throughput, potentially saving lives) then I will value that higher than typical "throughput" stats. Holy Paladins at least in T14 were designed that way, and I made most of my gearing decisions around that concept, where Spirit regen was more important than throughput stats on a reasonable ratio. I rarely considered flask/food buffs to be a reasonable ratio though, because Intellect has always been potent if you could get a large amount of it.

With the rapidly inflating gear levels, it seems like more and more healer classes (Holy Paladins included) are reaching the point where you aren't watching your mana bar, the boss's health bar, and the berserk timer in tandem like a hawk and using that to gauge your spell casts and how judicious you need to be with healing. You can afford to be looser with Spirit, and that can translate into gems and gearing decisions.

I am not fully paying attention to healer theorycrafting naturally. But I'm fairly sure that if I had a 521 ilvl as a Holy Paladin rather than a Prot Paladin, I would be in the midst of seeing how many gems I could swap over to Mastery to superpower my shields without needing to be judicious with my casts.

I think we can all agree that holy paladin mastery is extremely disgusting. I should level my alt paladin and fool around with it.


Yup. I swapped from a Holy Paladin because I saw the "silly, boring overpowered" writing on the wall and to be frank was tired and bored of healing anyways. I swapped to a Prot Paladin, which currently is the flavor-of-the-month overpowered supertank class... but at least is an interesting, engaging style of overpowered. I'll take it!
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90 Human Priest
13720
Ugly transmogs are not allowed in this thread, Tailias. Go battlehealer yourself.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Is Tailias my favorite pally of all time? I.e., the pally who trolled Elly with the fake /cancelaura Spirit Shell macro?
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
Is Tailias my favorite pally of all time? I.e., the pally who trolled Elly with the fake /cancelaura Spirit Shell macro?

Hahaha. Yes:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg
He actually does click off my heals. >:(
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I tried doing that to our disc priest, and (1) my Macro failed; and (2) she just said in vent "what the f**k are you doing Matt?"
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100 Draenei Paladin
13390
He actually does click off my heals. >:(


Only when you randomly Soothing Mist me in town! (as far as you know)
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90 Draenei Monk
11275
Hahaha. Yes:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg
He actually does click off my heals. >:(


Erm swaggle we have the exact same haste rating. O_o random fun fact for you, I was bored and armoried you.
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90 Troll Druid
10000
Stop necroing threads, eiko.

Also, /cancelaura Renewing Mist
/cast [@mouseover] Rejuvenation


Edit: and Swaggle, stop not streaming Lei Shen attempts.
Edited by Frozenorange on 7/8/2013 10:14 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
13720
stop not streaming Lei Shen attempts.


i stream them you idiot.

ask me in game and i will send you my twitch. then again, i wont be there for attempts this week or next week because I HAVE A LIFE YOU FAT NERD.

<3
Edited by Tsilyi on 7/8/2013 10:31 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
10000
I HAVE A LIFE YOU FAT NERD.


I'm a scrawny nerd, tyvm. Elly can confirm.
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90 Human Priest
13720
YOU SCRAWNY NERD
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