The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Draenei Shaman
11165
Even if you don't agree with his general points about int as a longevity stat/spirit as a throughput stat (via changing your spell selection, in opposite directions), I think we should all be able to agree that spirit flasks and food give too little spirit for the "slot" they take up, except maybe a few specialized mechanics like MTT.


For the most part yes, barring certain things like a healer being undergeared or at the very least not having a good amount of spirit for the encounter along with certain mechanics of the encounter itself. It's a rarity that I've ever used a spirit flask and almost always use intel flasks and food for my healers. But again that also has to do with the classes I play. If I ever really did get into Holy I don't know if I would go with spirit flasks/food in that spec.

There was just something that put me off about the whole article and I've had difficulty putting my finger on it. It's almost feels like he's missing the very point he's trying to make. Yes, if you're having issues healing that stacking more spirit isn't going to make you a better healer, but at the same time it feels like he's ignoring a whole bunch of other factors. That's one of the problems I've had with it, along with seeming to assume that all healing classes would value the same stats. I'm not talking about what was discussed in the comment section but the main body of his article. He doesn't take into consideration Rapture and MTT for example and if one was going to talk about balancing spirit around your other secondaries and intel then you either need to address all of them or only talk about the class(es) you know.

I think the part where he equated a spirit flask during a three minute fight as giving you the ability to cast two rejuv's rubbed me the wrong way. It's not the break down of how much you're actually getting back over three minutes, I think it was how he was so flippant about it as if there were no other factors at play. I think he just made the whole thing at least sound terribly over simplified, which was evident in the debates that followed in the comment section.

-Risk Mitigation - It's a frequently used argument that you should gear around ending fights at 0 mana, and any more than that means you are wasting itemization on Spirit. The issue with that argument is, you are assuming fights always go the same/always go perfectly. If something goes wrong, forcing more mana to be spent than normal, gearing around ending the fight at 0 mana can easily become "OOM with 3 minutes left". If you have sufficient throughput to get through the fight, there is some benefit in having extra regen so that you can push harder/last longer when things go sideways. After all, preventing wipes/deaths is the primary role of a healer.


I've heard this more times then I care to count being told to healers. I used to tank a lot, long before I ever really got into healing and listened to healers being told this.

To me, if the raid perfectly executes the fight then I should have mana left. As you said, not having a buffer will cause your raid to suffer if anything goes wrong (and sometimes things just go wrong due to bad timing and RNG) and could potentially limit your ability to recover and keep the attempt going. That's really a terrible way to look at things and limits you from being able to do your job effectively, especially in progression raiding where errors are part of the learning process.
Edited by Talai on 4/6/2013 3:29 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
Actually, he talks about stats, rapture, and other classes at some length in his January 9th post (the third out of four so far) in the series.

Here's an excerpt:

"Spirit

This section is a bit of an outline or placeholder; a full followup to the Int/Spirit article will be a post of its own. Here are the most salient things to keep in mind.

Spirit does not let you cast your efficient cooldown-bearing heals much more. It might, to the extent you reduce use of them somewhat when really strapped for mana. Mostly though, this means you weren’t budgeting mana well when you had less of it, if you weren’t already using your most efficient heals as much as you could.

So in some ways it’s similar to haste in that Circle of Healing-type spells don’t get much out of it. The benefit of added mana accrues primarily to whatever you freely cast in between, which you can now do more. Even without making assumptions on how you cast, at least take in the concept: the value of Spirit depends on which spell you will actually cast more with each marginal point. If that spell is an inefficient filler like Regrowth, you might be better off doing what you can to bolster other parts of your healing rather than relying on it more. If your mana->throughput factory is Prayer of Healing, maybe we’ll find that you can take that Spirit all the way to the bank.

One unique Spirit mechanic in MoP is Rapture. At first glance it’s worth 200% Spirit every 12 seconds at most, or 0.83 MP5 per Spirit. This is perhaps a bit concerning since the entire value of Spirit otherwise is 0.56 MP5 per. The reality is trickier than that though, since it requires an investment is PW:Shield, which is not particularly efficient. But given that Discipline Priests are already trained to make use of the mostly-free shield, the net mana on their balance sheet really does increase by 0.83 MP5 per Spirit added. Even though this post is only a preface to full-blown class balance analysis, we have definitely found something to put in our notebook for later. For some reason when Spirit was standardized for all classes, Disc Priest was left with a very strong Spirit scaling mechanic that more than doubles its value, and intentionally or not, they’re the same class that can pour every point of it into the PoH machine.

Total Mana

Most classes have a mechanic that returns mana based on a % of your total mana pool.

Druid: 20%/3min from Innervate.
Paladin: 12%/2min from Divine Plea
Priest: 27%/3min from Shadowfiend or ~16%/min from Mindbender. After the patch, another 6%/min from Power Word:Solace may become much more popular.
Shaman: Nothing outside of the net gain from Telluric Currents, but they do get at least 2138 MP5 (fixed) from Water Shield, and a discount on crits with Resurgence.
Monk: 1% for each Chi spent from Mana Tea. Can be worth upwards of 20%/min.

Nothing too deep here, but I’m kind of surprised this isn’t a little more uniform. I’d imagine that that class balance would be a little easier if the high-level mana economy was generally expected to be equal for everyone (but still provided by different class mechanics). It seems like unnecessary work to give Monks hundreds of thousands of mana with Mana Tea over the course of a fight and then have to balance the class around the increased resource pool.

The only material thing to add here is that Ember meta is worth 6000 mana times the benefit listed above for your class. So Druids and Paladins are looking at around 30 MP5, Priests 80 MP5, and Monks around there or a bit higher (minor effects like Hymn of Hope don’t change this much). All of these amounts are a bit lackluster next to even a modest crit bonus; the mana-oriented meta needs an update to reflect MoP mechanics.

One thing useful to keep in mind is in total, where you get the mana that you spend over the course of a fight:
300000 starting. In a 5 minute fight, this is equivalent to about 5000 MP5.
6000 MP5 constant base regen.
Above amount, up to around 5000 MP5 depending on class from class-specific mechanics.
6000 MP5 from Spirit if you have about 11000.
Again this was very rough since I didn’t want to break it down by class in service of a small point. The point is that most of the mana you get to spend over the course of a fight is quite fixed, with the Spirit slice really only occupying 1/4 or 1/3 of it. The bulk of your mana is from the constant sources you tend not think about and aren’t much affected by gear."
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
04/06/2013 06:13 AMPosted by Alashe
which he expands upon in three more posts in the series


I understand this is your view, and maybe you know and like him or something. But people are repeatedly citing what he wrote back in October 2012 as chapter and verse, so that's what I am talking about. If you'd like to discuss the merits of what he wrote three months later, I'm quite sure that would be interesting, but it has nothing to do with this.

04/06/2013 06:13 AMPosted by Alashe
The following things are also not the crux of the matter, but for the sake of accuracy and fairness, he doesn't say three minute fight


He literally uses "3 minutes". Literally:

Over the course of, let’s say, 3 minutes of healing, that 1000 Spirit will get me just over 20000 mana. Or, roughly enough to cast 2 Rejuvenations. So that’s the first step. In my head, I’ve relabeled Flask of Falling Leaves as “Flask of 2 Rejuvs.” Suddenly it does not seem very compelling.


(emphasis added). Why does he do this? What is the purpose of selecting "3 minutes"? Answer: because it enables him to use a catchy phase (flask of 2 rejuvs) that denigrates use of spirit flasks. There is no other purpose in selecting three minutes, given there are zero three minute raid bosses.

04/06/2013 06:13 AMPosted by Alashe
he does discuss rapture and MTT


Please re-read what I wrote: "he barely mentions the impact of spirit on mana tide totem and rapture". That sentence is entirely accurate. He *barely* mentions them. In fact, until he was corrected by someone in the comments, he didn't mention rapture *at all*. Even so, here is the entire "discussion" of rapture and MTT in his post:

The only real class-based variance will come from the occasional ability that scales extremely strongly with Spirit (Mana Tide is perhaps the only remaining one, and even then only in a 25-man) (edit: Chris notes in the comments that the new Spirit-based Rapture may be another).


That's it. Parenthetical throwaway lines. That's "barely mentioning"; it is not "discussing."

that quote is double quoted because it isn't from him, which in fairness you should mention, though he does agree with it


I put internal quotations along with the quotations, which means I was quoting him quoting someone else. You said "though he does agree with it", but that's the entire point. He is quoting it favorably. He agrees with it. His post opens up with insults with which he agrees.

Honestly, I don't understand why you defend that particular post. You'd like it to be some scholarly, even-handed, math-based pronunciation, but it isn't. The purpose is to pretty clearly to poke fun at healers for liking spirit. Moreover, the post glosses over facts that don't support his thesis, fudges data to bolster his thesis, and focuses heavily on flasks/food to get to his point.

A better post would have discussed all of this stuff even-handedly. And no, some post three months later doesn't cure the incorrect one.
Edited by Taymage on 4/6/2013 5:16 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
11165
That's it. Parenthetical throwaway lines. That's "barely mentioning"; it is not "discussing."


I feel like we're both repeating ourselves. We've both said in his actual article he doesn't really cover these things. If people hadn't come along and left detailed comments pointing these things out he never would have covered them in any kind of depth, which means people wouldn't have this information.

I don't know why people defend this post so much. Healer's are never going to have the same kind of structured outlines as the other spec's. We aren't going to have a necessary hit or expertise cap, for example. Yes we are going to shot for certain haste break points, mastery rating etc but it's so varied by class along with the encounter and raid makeup itself having a large role in how we do things there is never going to be a perfect formula for us.

Healers should be encouraged to think, to analyze why they feel they need such and such stat over another but it's never going to be a hard and fast rule - at least how we have things set up now.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
(emphasis added). Why does he do this? What is the purpose of selecting "3 minutes"? Answer: because it enables him to use a catchy phase (flask of 2 rejuvs) that denigrates use of spirit flasks. There is not other purpose in selecting three minutes, given there are zero three minute raid bosses.


You do realize, I hope, that he didn't need to use numbers at all to support his argument, right? They're there to illustrate concepts he is talking about. He could have used a 5 second time frame and called it "Flask of 0.056 rejuvs". The post isn't about whether spirit or intellect flasks are better, it's about the thought process that goes in to determining which is better. He could have used completely made up numbers with absolutely no basis in reality if he wanted because the numbers do not matter.

Please re-read what I wrote: "he barely mentions the impact of spirit on mana tide totem and rapture". That sentence is entirely accurate. He *barely* mentions them. In fact, until he was corrected by someone in the comments, he didn't mention rapture *at all*. Even so, here is the entire "discussion" of rapture in his post:


Again, you completely missed his point if you think an in depth discussion of those abilities is necessary for his essay. He's talking about general principles while you're fixating on application. Obviously when you apply these principles to a specific spec like discipline priests, you need to consider rapture in your evaluation of spirit. Since he's not actually evaluating spirit, but rather evaluating the evaluation of spirit, that's not really within the scope of what he's talking about.

Honestly, I don't understand why you defend that particular post. You'd like it to be some scholarly, even-handed, math-based pronunciation, but it isn't. The purpose is to pretty clearly to poke fun at healers for liking spirit. Moreover, the post glosses over facts that don't support his thesis, fudges data to bolster his thesis, and focuses heavily on flasks/food to get to his point.


I don't know why anyone would think it's a "scholarly, even-handed, math-based" anything. It's certainly a bit deprecatory, not of healers who like spirit, but rather of healers who like spirit for bad reasons. It's not really based on math, merely logic, and the pronouncement* he's making doesn't require any data at all so how is he fudging it?
Edited by Maladii on 4/6/2013 5:47 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/06/2013 05:46 PMPosted by Maladii
I don't know why anyone would think it's a "scholarly, even-handed, math-based" anything.


Primarily because he spends the entire time trying to make it look like that's exactly what it is.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
Primarily because he spends the entire time trying to make it look like that's exactly what it is.


It looks more like an intentionally snarky blog to me.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I don't know why anyone would think it's a "scholarly, even-handed, math-based" anything


Because that's what you and Alashe are attempting to portray it as?

04/06/2013 05:46 PMPosted by Maladii
Again, you completely missed his point if you think an in depth discussion of those abilities is necessary for his essay. He's talking about general principles while you're fixating on application.


No, I'm reading words that he wrote. I cannot read the words you'd like to be there.

I realize you and Alashe would like to pretend it was a dissertation of some kind, but it wasn't.

He wrote a snotty piece that started with insults. He titled it "Why More Spirit is not the Answer to your Healing Problems", yet literally does not mention reforging. He also glosses over gem budgets; fudges the effect of intellect flasks on healing; deliberately selects a short time frame for a fight that makes spirit flasks seem worse; and barely mentions the impact of spirit on mana tide totem and rapture.

The article is shoddy and incomplete, yet it keeps being cited over and over.
Edited by Taymage on 4/6/2013 6:47 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
7275
Questions! What exactly are you trying to accomplish by trying to push these articles on us? This isn't just to the OP, this is to everyone.

We have given you guys evidence that shows the flaws in logic here, we've given you reasons as to why the thought of INT TRUMPS ALL isn't as viable as you would think, especially in this day and age of burst heals, static mana pools, and "OHSHI--" moments, and yet, we still keep hearing about these articles. Why? Are you trying to prove that you're superior in all things? Even if you're absolutely, with a doubt correct...what does it matter? What does it change? Are you trying to show how bad the rest of us are in our healing? Raiders like Tiriel, Mist, Taymage, so on, who have heroic progression, who I respect the hell out of, are bad because they see the importance of spirit?

On top of that, the article is clearly mostly about food and flasks for Spirit, and while I can agree for the most part that going for those is probably a waste, the misconceptions pulled from it (regemming for straight Int, reforging spirit into other secondaries, etc.) seems to really be pulled out of your guys' collective !@#. There are also times when I can see Spirit food and flasks as a warranted thing, such as an overly long encounter that is stressful on healers (Heroic Tortos anyone?), or if players are really undergeared, or if the raid is reliant on a shaman's MTT. But I digress.

Seriously, what is the point in all this? Why is it so critical that you prove that Int > Spirit?
Reply Quote
100 Undead Priest
10715
The article is an attempt to get people to apply critical thought to healing, which is something sorely lacking in both the community and this thread.

You ARE aware of his guild name, yes?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
0
No, I'm reading words that he wrote. I cannot read the words you'd like to be there.

I realize you and Alashe would like to pretend it was a dissertation of some kind, but it wasn't.

He wrote a snotty piece that started with insults. He titled it "Why More Spirit is not the Answer to your Healing Problems", yet literally does not mention reforging. He also glosses over gem budgets; fudges the effect of intellect flasks on healing; deliberately selects a short time frame for a fight that makes spirit flasks seem worse; and barely mentions the impact of spirit on mana tide totem and rapture.

The article is shoddy, yet it keeps being cited over and over.


Perhaps you should read what was said again then, because I question whether you're interpreting it properly. Most of what Maladii said above hit it on the head. All the guy said in that article is spirit does this, intelligence does this, and quite often healers mistakenly believe they're infallible and make poor gearing choices by taking more spirit when their spirit value is unrelated to their problems.

The interesting thing about it all is downing bosses has much more to do with executing the mechanics in the encounters than choosing between flasking intelligence or spirit, or gearing critical strike instead of mastery.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/06/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Maladii
Primarily because he spends the entire time trying to make it look like that's exactly what it is.


It looks more like an intentionally snarky blog to me.


Well, it's entirely possible that I misread it, but it seemed to me the several times that I've gone back and re-read the thing that he's trying very hard to justify his opinion. And the problem with slathering math all over things if you're...shall we say...cooking the books...is that it provides a sense of "legitimacy" to your words for many players, not unlike having a particular guild tag.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
The article is an attempt to get people to apply critical thought to healing, which is something sorely lacking in both the community and this thread.

You ARE aware of his guild name, yes?


I know who Maladii is. But I don't particularly care what his guild tag is. Your guild tag shouldn't exempt you from being questioned. It doesn't mean you're always 100% correct, either. All it means is that you're probably a smart cookie who has some skills. :)
Edited by Tiriel on 4/6/2013 7:13 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
No, I'm reading words that he wrote. I cannot read the words you'd like to be there.


The words I'd like to be there? You mean like these?

But you can read below for more on both the right and wrong thought processes here.

But most people’s understanding of why they should choose it goes about this far:

“I’ve been running out of mana so far this expansion. I should get more Spirit than I already have.”

Conclusion

If you’re running short of mana, you can either 1) devote your resources to getting more, 2) make your key heals stronger while using the inefficient ones less. Now, which is likely to better is a question of math.

Underlines mine. And for good measure, in the author's own words about this exact essay:
I tried to write up someone my recent comments on Spirit, should be relevant here:
Why More Spirit is not the Answer to your Healing Problems | It's Dangerous to Go Alone

It doesn't get to deeply into math, but that's what TreeCalcs is for. It just outlines how to try to start thinking about these tradeoffs.


I realize you and Alashe would like to pretend it was a dissertation of some kind, but it wasn't.


Ironically, I have plenty of criticism for this particular article of my own. People in this thread (particularly you), however, so tragically misunderstand his essay that I was actually moved to defend it.

He wrote a snotty piece that started with insults. He titled it "Why More Spirit is not the Answer to your Healing Problems", yet literally does not mention reforging. He also glosses over gem budgets; fudges the effect of intellect flasks on healing; deliberately selects a short time frame for a fight that makes spirit flasks seem worse; and barely mentions the impact of spirit on mana tide totem and rapture.

The article is shoddy and incomplete, yet it keeps being cited over and over.


You've been granted that it is snotty. If his conclusion, that spirit should be treated like a throughput stat and not as an independent condition that must be satisfied required any numeric basis then you might have a point. If the aforementioned conclusion required the addressing of gem budgets, relative value of flasks, or time frames, then you might have a point. The fact is though, those topics are not within the scope of his discussion.

And yes, I'd actually prefer if people ignored my guild tag, though I suspect Multicidez was talking about Hamlet's Elitist Jerks tag (and their reputation for theorycraft).

Edit: And in case it still isn't clear, the whole int flask being more useful to an undergeared healer than a spirit flask bit is not his conclusion. It is a counter-intuitive result realized through this thought process that ends up being true in a lot of cases. He's not trying to prove it there though.
Edited by Maladii on 4/6/2013 8:02 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
And yes, I'd actually prefer if people ignored my guild tag, though I suspect Multicidez was talking about Hamlet's Elitist Jerks tag (and their reputation for theorycraft).


>.>

I suppose that's possible...though...to be blunt, Elitist Jerks has ceased to be a mecca for healing theorycraft. I tried looking at it towards the end of Cata, and again this expansion, but there's really nothing there. I've been looking elsewhere, so...Hamlet's guild tag means absolutely nothing to me.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
I really liked Hamlet's post when I first read it, and I still like it. It lays out an approach to comparing Spirit to other stats which to me is intuitively obvious, but which other healers often don't seem to be willing to consider.

That said, the math is wrong. Which is a serious flaw. It was wrong when he wrote it (1000 Int is not a 10% throughput gain at 10k spellpower - think it's closer to 5%) and is even more misleading to someone reading it for the first time now without doing their own calculations (at current spellpower levels, we're talking around 2-3% tops). Meanwhile, Spirit is currently only a slightly lower percentage gain than it was at the time.

I like the approach he outlines despite those issues, and despite the fact that he fails to consider some of the 'squishier' aspects of healing (e.g. the fact that it's sometimes better to be able to heal more targets than it is to heal targets for more, especially in larger-group settings.) I like it much better than the meaningless "Spirit to comfort" advice I see repeated incessantly.

But there are major issues with it, and on top of that, the tone is obnoxious and I understand how that alone puts some people off.

I wish you all would stop fighting over this specific flawed article and fight over ideas instead.

I'll start: "Spirit to comfort" is backwards. The value of Int remains almost static in absolute terms as gear improves; it gains some value as your Spirit increases (because you're casting additional spells which are also buffed by Int), but that effect is small. The value of Spirit increases significantly in absolute terms as Int increases (because the additional spells that you're adding are much bigger).

That means that relatively speaking, Spirit actually becomes more - not less - valuable compared to Int at high gear levels, until you hit the pont where your mana-to-HP conversion becomes more inefficient (e.g. when the only way to spend more mana is to start casting Flash Heals where they aren't needed).
Edited by Kaels on 4/6/2013 8:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
04/06/2013 06:52 PMPosted by Fistlobster
Questions! What exactly are you trying to accomplish by trying to push these articles on us? This isn't just to the OP, this is to everyone.


I'm pretty sure these are different people discovering the blog post and wanting to discuss it because they find it interesting. I'm kinda sorry I ever brought it up D:

It seems to me that you (in general) might find it insulting particularly because it's the worst advice you could give a priest. I mean, it's completely, one hundred percent inapplicable to priests. At all. Holy priests don't even have a cooldown-based efficient healing rotation. Disc priests do; druids do; paladins do. Monks, holy priests, and shamans do not.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Monk
17435
the tone is obnoxious and I understand how that alone puts some people off.

I wish you all would stop fighting over this specific flawed article and fight over ideas instead.

This.
Holy priests don't even have a cooldown-based efficient healing rotation. Disc priests do; druids do; paladins do. Monks, holy priests, and shamans do not.

I'm probably having a brain fart here, but can you explain what a cooldown-based healing rotation is? I don't think I've ever heard that term. It's possible it was used in Hamlet's article and I missed it due to skimming (also it was months ago when I skimmed it).
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
I'm probably having a brain fart here, but can you explain what a cooldown-based healing rotation is? I don't think I've ever heard that term. It's possible it was used in Hamlet's article and I missed it due to skimming (also it was months ago when I skimmed it).


He discusses it more in this one actually:
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2013/03/15/healing-theory-part-3-mana-and-other-resources/

It's basically the idea that spells with cooldowns, like Wild Growth and Healing Rain are often among our most efficient spells. When possible, it is better to rely on those rather than spend mana on less efficient spells. However, since they're limited by cooldowns far more than mana, adding spirit doesn't let you use these spells any more than you otherwise would.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
7275
the tone is obnoxious and I understand how that alone puts some people off.

I wish you all would stop fighting over this specific flawed article and fight over ideas instead.

This.
Holy priests don't even have a cooldown-based efficient healing rotation. Disc priests do; druids do; paladins do. Monks, holy priests, and shamans do not.

I'm probably having a brain fart here, but can you explain what a cooldown-based healing rotation is? I don't think I've ever heard that term. It's possible it was used in Hamlet's article and I missed it due to skimming (also it was months ago when I skimmed it).

Atonement (Holy Fire/PW:Solace, and Penance)
Holy Shock and WoG/EF (I'm probably very wrong about this, feel free to correct me; I know next to nothing about paladin healing)
Swiftmend and Wild Growth

One could argue monks have somewhat of a cooldown based healing rotation, due to ReM's cooldown and the need for Chi for spamming Uplift, but the inconsistent nature of Chi Generation through Soothing Mist makes having a set rotation detrimental.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/6/2013 8:21 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]