The age old debate - Int vs spirit

It's basically the idea that spells with cooldowns, like Wild Growth and Healing Rain are often among our most efficient spells. When possible, it is better to rely on those rather than spend mana on less efficient spells. However, since they're limited by cooldowns far more than mana, adding spirit doesn't let you use these spells any more than you otherwise would.


Yes, and it's a concept particularly characteristic of druid healing. For druids in particular, Swiftmend and Wild Growth are so much more powerful than our filler spells that they are literally always the best thing to do with our mana. These cooldowns set out a healing rotation for us.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
Taymage, I took out all the nested quotes because it was unwieldy, but in response, no, I don't know him. I did and do think it is really unfair that his work is being, at best, misrepresented over and over and over by people who had maybe read parts of it or had heard it discussed (and trashed) and were parroting that, and at worst being actively disparaged by people who hadn't read it at all, or hadn't understood the part they did read.

Anyway, the idea that he wrote parts of it later so they don't count is silly--it's a four part series on a relatively involved topic; here's hoping there's a fifth.

I took issue with your use of the word "fight" since you keep using it to suggest how bad his thinking is--he does not say three minute fight, he says, "over the course of three minutes of healing." Derevka expands it to 10; the points are the same.

I acknowledged your double quotes, and still felt, out of fairness, you should have mentioned he didn't author those words.

Kaels's point above about the number being closer to 5%--that very correction is actually IN that first post, but ok, there are errors. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on his next three posts, where he expands a great deal and answers some of the questions you raise, though I hear you loud and clear that you may not be so inclined.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I'll start: "Spirit to comfort" is backwards


Why is that? Recommending that one gets enough Spirit till they're able to comfortably go into most fights without being worried about running out of mana may not be the most qualified advice, but it certainly is the most practical. After all, there are far too many variables to ever be able to recommend a one size fits all approach to the amount of Spirit one should stack. The 'Spirit to comfort' recommendation works because its based on a person's own experiences and play style.

Also, the sheer fact that every fight has different mana requirements makes it exceedingly impractical to recommend gemming or reforging for Int/throughput stats. It's simply not worth it regemming or reforging your entire gear set from one encounter to the next for only a rather trivial increase in the size of one's heals.

While Hamlet's post touches on the concept that Spirit does give you the ability to cast more spells, it severely undervalues the fact that excess Spirit (mana) can always be converted to more healing by healing more aggressively, but a healer that has gone for throughput stats may quite often find themselves go OOM due to uncontrollable variables in the fight, and an OOM healer before the fight is over is practically useless to the raid. The main benefit that is often overlooked is that more Spirit allows you to more freely throttle up your heals when healing demands increase.

If anyone were to ask me how much Spirit they should get, I would most certainly recommend 'Spirit to comfort', while also advocating starting with an Int flask/food and then swapping to Spirit based ones should the need for more regen arise. It's certainly much more reliable than recommending x amount of Spirit, as what works for one person may not work for someone else.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/6/2013 9:20 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10225
Taymage, I took out all the nested quotes because it was unwieldy, but in response, no, I don't know him. I did and do think it is really unfair that his work is being, at best, misrepresented over and over and over by people who had maybe read parts of it or had heard it discussed (and trashed) and were parroting that, and at worst being actively disparaged by people who hadn't read it at all, or hadn't understood the part they did read


People disagreeing does not equal trashing - not by a long shot. We're also reading the article posted in the link and if there's more you think we should be reading then instead of telling us what's in it you should be posting on where we should go to look. We're also looking at the fact that very real concerns and criticisms had to come up in the comments because at best they were glossed over and at worst left out completely.

Personally I think he should have completely rewritten this article in light of what he learned in comments and the points brought up. I think his original premise was a sound one - that more spirit isn't going to make you a better healer but that he approached it in the wrong way.

Healers should look at what their doing and think about if it's best for their situation. While 'spirit to comofort' does sound like a platitude there is also some truth behind it as well. Not all raid teams are created equal.

Let's take Feng in MSV as a general example. Are you with a group that is always either going to stop an epicenter from going off or provide a bubble so everyone can stack on the boss without fear? Or are you going to have to deal with an Epicenter here and there which means you and all the range will have to stand away from the boss to take less damage which also means more travel time when the bubble is used? Do you have a tank on top of their game and will always use a barrier during Draw Flame? Or is it going to go off sometimes and cause raid wise damage? Is your raid always going to drop Wildfire spark in the proper areas, or are melee/ranged going to consistently leave them in the group forcing the tank to move the boss and people to take damage either by having it dropped next to them or drawn through them? In phase three are people going to stack reliably during Arcane Velocity and people with Arcane Resonance are going to stay away from others? Or are you going to have to deal with people with the debuff stacking on the boss and stranglers during Velocity?

All these things determine how much healing you'll have to do and in many ways how much spirit you'll need. Arguably, in a well qualified raid group you'll have to deal with few if none of these problem areas and not have to worry as much about mana flow. In raid teams where people aren't as aware or quick to react (and I think we've all been there) you'll have to make up for their mistakes, requiring more healing and a greater balance between regen and throughput. Also to consider is if your team is doing bleeding edge content which demands even more attention between these two.

There are so many variables along with differences between the classes that at times it can become a personal matter on how much Spirit vs. Intel vs Other Secondary stats that you need because we aren't all on the same teams and healing the same people. Yes, you can get yourself into situations where you are sacrificing too much to take on Spirit and that should be addressed but it's not as cut and dry, black and white as he would have us all believe. Which is more then likely what people are taking offense too.

TL;DR It's fine to have opinions on something and defend a line of thought but one should't take offense if someone else doesn't agree with you. They may very well have their reasons which may be just as compelling as your own. The only way to learn is to listen to others and at least take into consideration what they are saying, not blindly accept or reject it because it doesn't follow your own school of thought.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
04/06/2013 09:52 PMPosted by Talai
Taymage, I took out all the nested quotes because it was unwieldy, but in response, no, I don't know him. I did and do think it is really unfair that his work is being, at best, misrepresented over and over and over by people who had maybe read parts of it or had heard it discussed (and trashed) and were parroting that, and at worst being actively disparaged by people who hadn't read it at all, or hadn't understood the part they did read


People disagreeing does not equal trashing - not by a long shot. We're also reading the article posted in the link and if there's more you think we should be reading then instead of telling us what's in it you should be posting on where we should go to look. We're also looking at the fact that very real concerns and criticisms had to come up in the comments because at best they were glossed over and at worst left out completely.


Hi, Talai. I appreciate what you're saying, but this is not our first ride on this here pony this week. Pretty sure the words "terrible," "stupid," and "tripe," along with your standard amount of sniffy progression trolling, count as trashing and disparaging. Also, really, I have said many many times that there are three more follow up posts, and even copied and pasted a large excerpt from one; they've been linked in other threads, but they're on the same site as the first post.

It's fine to have opinions on something and defend a line of thought but one should't take offense if someone else doesn't agree with you. They may very well have their reasons which may be just as compelling as your own. The only way to learn is to listen to others and at least take into consideration what they are saying, not blindly accept or reject it because it doesn't follow your own school of thought.


Indeed.
Reply Quote
100 Undead Priest
10650

And yes, I'd actually prefer if people ignored my guild tag, though I suspect Multicidez was talking about Hamlet's Elitist Jerks tag (and their reputation for theorycraft).


I was talking about the Elitist Jerks tag. I wasn't referring to any reputation for theorycraft either; it was moreso joking that I'm not surprised a guy would act condescending and snobbish when he's in a guild called Elitist Jerks.

In all seriousness I think the tone of the article comes from frustration and bewilderment that people would do X or Y without thought. It's begging people to just stop being idiots and trying to kick them out of complacency. It's tough because people will do everything they can to NOT change.

Ultimately healers are just a piece of the puzzle. Each healer should be asking "what is my purpose?" and then fit like a cogwheel into the machine. I know exactly what my purpose is - I provide raw healing output through Atonement with the safety net of extra cooldowns and Shields. As such Spirit isn't nearly as important for me as throughput, and I rarely OOM despite only a little over 8k Spi fully raid buffed. My suggestions for how much Spirit to stack will likely not apply to people with a different purpose, different role, and different machine in which to fit. The problem most people have is they try to jump to a conclusion about what stat to use when they can't even ask the right question to begin with! It pisses me off too, though not enough to write anything more than this post about it.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/06/2013 09:52 PMPosted by Talai
People disagreeing does not equal trashing - not by a long shot.


It's almost like watching Bill O'Reilly trash Obama, lol.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10225
Hi, Talai. I appreciate what you're saying, but this is not our first ride on this here pony this week. Pretty sure the words "terrible," "stupid," and "tripe," along with your standard amount of sniffy progression trolling, count as trashing and disparaging. Also, really, I have said many many times that there are three more follow up posts, and even copied and pasted a large excerpt from one; they've been linked in other threads, but they're on the same site as the first post.


I know the other thread that this was brought up in and at times I only skimmed some of the posts. It seemed to get to the point where there was bashing on both sides and nobody was really listening to the other.

To be honest, after reading his initial post I don't particularly have the want to read the other three simply since his first one rubbed me the wrong way. As I said, I think his premise that he set about proving stated in the title was a really good one - I just don't think he went about proving it in the right way at all.

Over the years I have seen healers sacrifice all their spirit for something else, along with healers taking spirit to the determent of everything else. I would love to see someone write a comprehensive but simple article/guide talking about the pros and cons of spirit and comparing it to the other secondaries as well as addressing the spirit vs. intel debate. Along with tackling what "Spirit to comfort" should really mean and how it should be approached, especially for new healers just starting out. I've seen new healers over the years say "I'm having problems healing I must need more Spirit!" and I wish there was something that I knew was accurate and easy to understand to point them to and say "If you don't read anything else read this."

One can only wish.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
12620
04/05/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Tiriel
I'm really not sure what you're after. You need to understand that Spirit does different things for different healers. There is no "perfect" level of Spirit for each healers.


Yes there is. It's the level where you hit exactly 0 mana at the exact moment the boss dies.

Good luck with that. ;p
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10225
04/07/2013 06:28 AMPosted by Lailala
I'm really not sure what you're after. You need to understand that Spirit does different things for different healers. There is no "perfect" level of Spirit for each healers.


Yes there is. It's the level where you hit exactly 0 mana at the exact moment the boss dies.

Good luck with that. ;p


Why is 0 mana at the end always used as some sort of bench marker for just enough spirit? :P

Seriously, I've seen people say this with a straight face and all I can think is when I end up OOM right as a boss dies that the whole thing went a bit sideways and I'm glad we made it. Not "Yep that's just enough spirit - moving on."

I would have loved to have told any group I raided with in the past though (or heard another healer say this): "Hey guys I have my spirit fine tuned with pin point accuracy. If anyone makes one mistake that falls outside of the allotted amount of damage for this encounter either you're going to die or cause the group to wipe since it's not part of the overall acceptable incoming damage. Let's do good guys!"

*entire group is now paranoid*
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Yes there is. It's the level where you hit exactly 0 mana at the exact moment the boss dies.

Good luck with that. ;p


A healer's mana expenditure fluctuates during the course of a fight due to boss mechanics and a healer's mana certainly doesn't decrease linearly over the course of a fight.

You may find yourself OOM halfway through the encounter only to end up with half your mana when the boss dies. This is why it's almost always better to have more Spirit than it is to have throughput stats.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
To be honest, after reading his initial post I don't particularly have the want to read the other three simply since his first one rubbed me the wrong way. As I said, I think his premise that he set about proving stated in the title was a really good one - I just don't think he went about proving it in the right way at all.

Over the years I have seen healers sacrifice all their spirit for something else, along with healers taking spirit to the determent of everything else. I would love to see someone write a comprehensive but simple article/guide talking about the pros and cons of spirit and comparing it to the other secondaries as well as addressing the spirit vs. intel debate. Along with tackling what "Spirit to comfort" should really mean and how it should be approached, especially for new healers just starting out. I've seen new healers over the years say "I'm having problems healing I must need more Spirit!" and I wish there was something that I knew was accurate and easy to understand to point them to and say "If you don't read anything else read this."

One can only wish.


That's true, despite what people keep assuming, it's not an int vs spirit debate, although it does, in my opinion, obviously, do an excellent job of explaining how to start thinking about and really understanding what those stats do in terms of your mana, how you go about spending it and how you actually get it back. Every time I try to summarize it in a paragraph, I remember it took him four essays (so far) to say it.

Anyway, the reason I keep saying, "No, he doesn't say that," or "Here's where he discusses X," which are usually things he's been accused wrongly and repeatedly of saying (slash spirit, int always!) or not saying (he doesn't even talk about rapture!) (all of which is tangential to his central point) is because the starting place for a discussion about his posts has to be what's actually in his posts. Granted, nobody has to read them, but people should do that if they want to discuss them, and they should do that especially if they are determined to say his work is crap. If someone reads all of them, concludes they are crap (or even has relevant, substantive quibbles) and makes a persuasive case of it based on what's actually in the posts, I am all for that. At least we'd finally be at the starting place.

Lastly, I realize people were offended by his first post. I don't get that, but I don't have to. But...so what? If anyone has come around to thinking he's saying something worthwhile for healers, does it make sense to let your perception of his attitude be the thing that keeps you from reading more?
Reply Quote
100 Undead Priest
10650
If you have just enough spirit to get by, you can go OOM if things go sideways. This is true.

If you have just enough throughput to get by, you can also lose control if things go sideways. Having just enough throughput to keep people at 1% after heavy raid damage is risky and will cause death if things go sideways.

It is best to have a safety net for both, a balance between the two, and realize that they both improve as the other improves.
Reply Quote
While Hamlet's post touches on the concept that Spirit does give you the ability to cast more spells, it severely undervalues the fact that excess Spirit (mana) can always be converted to more healing by healing more aggressively


Actually, the ability to convert mana to throughput varies per class based on how good your spammable spells are and how you use them. For druids, our spammable spells are Regrowth, Healing Touch, and Rejuvenation. RG and HT will, by and large, be cast under Clearcasting unless the tanks are in a dire spot -- so extra mana has little to no bearing on casting them. When the raid is in a dire spot, RJ is typically a better choice because you can spread it around faster and Swiftmend off of it, and it won't overheal in that situation (making it more efficient than your single-target spells).

In short, the majority of our healing comes from WG and SM, and Rejuvenation is the primary way to turn extra mana into throughput. Because all of those are HoTs, they're often not fast enough to keep up with incoming damage -- so when healing the raid we have a clear incentive to go for throughput stats over Spirit. (I'm gemming Int/Mastery/Spirit after my haste breakpoint, by the way.)

Priests have Prayer of Healing, which will turn mana into throughput all day. So you've got very different choices.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
0
Int and Spirit are... multiplicative. I remember reading the first article he wrote (though I did not know he made a follow-up to it). The tone wasn't the most pleasant, and some arguments had small flaws, but the core idea was definitely sound.

More spirit means more throughput. It allows you to convert smaller heals into larger heals, such as Healing Wave into Greater Healing Wave, Holy Light into Divine Light, and so forth.

More Int means more mana. When your spells are healing for more, when your HoTs are bringing people up faster, when every ground and smart and indirect heals makes for the shiny green numbers, you get to cast fewer spells in the long run, or else use more efficient spells because they heal for so much now that they can keep up with damage output.

Too much spirit, though, can become wasteful. A buffer is nice, but too often goes unneeded.

Too much Int can also be worthless. While it does benefit your healing, any time one of your heals (or a co-healer's heals) tops someone off and spills over into Overhealing, that extra bit of Spellpower turns out to not be doing a lick of good.

As healers, we have to constantly ask ourselves, what do we need right now? Which stat or gemming procedure or reforging method will allow us to save the raid? Which one will produce the least amount of stress? Which one works for us?

Reading his article did get me thinking about the issue, which was the important part. I love me some longevity. The fact that Spirit and Mastery are the prime stats for paladins make my insides do happy little panda dances. But... I did swap over from Spirit Flasks to Int flasks because I started to notice that I was infrequently running low on mana (while still having enough to spam Divine Light and remove Holy Light from my main toolbar), but that sometimes my heals left raiders uncomfortably low on health for too long of a duration during heavy AoE damage. So with that in mind, especially since Paladins have EZ's Overheal Catcher (tm) in the form of Illuminated Mastery, Intellect and the provided spellpower became stronger.

Doubly so because I already had the mana staying power to cast many strong spells.

Balance, ya' know? 5x5 > 3x7.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
If you have just enough spirit to get by, you can go OOM if things go sideways. This is true.

If you have just enough throughput to get by, you can also lose control if things go sideways. Having just enough throughput to keep people at 1% after heavy raid damage is risky and will cause death if things go sideways.

It is best to have a safety net for both, a balance between the two, and realize that they both improve as the other improves.


Mmm. No, I can't completely agree with this. The problem here is that you're not accounting for the fact that as our ilvl rises, we are naturally - and almost passively - picking up more Intellect on the gear that we upgrade. The simple fact is that Spirit items are also slathered with Intellect - a lot of it. There is never a choice to pick up Spirit items without Intellect on them. The choice you're making instead is whether to pick up items with other secondary stats on them. You can get Spirit and Haste, Spirit and Crit, Spirit and Mastery, Haste and Crit, Haste and Mastery, and Crit and Mastery, but you'll never find a piece that is Spirit and 0 Intellect, or Mastery and 0 Intellect (unless it's a piece of gear that isn't meant for a healer in the first place). (There IS a cloak that will be gotten in 5.3 that has Spirit, Haste, AND Mastery on it, but that is one of those weird Legendary quest things, so I don't think that really counts here.)

This isn't a question of sacrificing throughput for mana regen, because our gear already comes with throughput. The question is really whether you want to dump that Spirit for more Mastery instead of just Haste, or more Crit instead of just Mastery, etc. If you're already running at a high ilvl, chances are that in addition to having a chunky amount of Intellect, you probably also have Spirit coming out of your years just from what is natively on your gear, unless you have had back luck with drops and ended up with one of the few non-cloth pieces to lack Spirit (though most of those are fairly badly itemized for healing specs anyway, so it's sort of a double whammy). And even then, you can probably gem to make up the difference.

Really, the only thing you CAN focus on and question, in terms of throughput vs. regen, IS food and flask, because everything else sort of comes slathered with regen AND throughput. But what I find unproductive about his post, and about his conclusions in general, is that he makes broad, overarching statements that his conclusions are true for every class in every situation, and that's simply not true. As an example, when my guild started working on Heroic Council, myself and the other Disc Priest started out with Intellect Flasks, as we both have ~15k+ Spirit raid-buffed. It it became very clear very quickly that due to the length of the fight, and certain parts of our strategy, that was not going to work for us. At a certain point, after we had managed to get ~5-6 minutes in the fight, we realized that we needed more Spirit - and remember that Spirit is much, much more valuable in general to a Disc Priest than to many other classes. So we then began to flask and eat pure Spirit food, which gave us just enough extra regen to not OOM 4-5 minutes into the fight. We also changed a few aspects of our strat to ease the burden on the healers slightly.

The thing is, longer fights tend to favor more Spirit (our Council kill was almost 10 minutes long), while shorter fights tend to favor less Spirit (H Jin'rokh is a good example, under 6 minutes). I don't like the fact that he appears (mind you, from MY perspective) to make one judgement call about EVERY situation. Different fights require different things, and while it IS true that on a shorter encounter, more Spirit may not help you out, on a longer encounter, if the "problem" is that you're running dry, more Spirit may very well be what you need.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10225
Lastly, I realize people were offended by his first post. I don't get that, but I don't have to. But...so what? If anyone has come around to thinking he's saying something worthwhile for healers, does it make sense to let your perception of his attitude be the thing that keeps you from reading more?


The way someone writes, or their voice, absolutely does impact whether or not people end up valuing the advice or shelving it because they feel they are being talked down to. Especially if they hold different opinions of what is going on and feel as though they are simply being told that they are wrong, the writer is right, end of story.

Which when writing these types of articles it is essential that you write it with the tone of voice in mind. You may have something absolutely brilliant to say but if you do it in a way that puts people off you are going to be able to share your wisdom with them.

People also have different tastes or may be used to reading a type of article that has a more neutral voice when they look for more factual information. While it's certainly okay to be passionate about a topic it's a fine line to walk to not make people feel as though they are being personally challenged as wrong. Not to mention that people may have some strong opinions of the subject matter as it is themselves and information that challenges these opinions/beliefs should be neutral so not to set off people or cause them to feel offended.

I think that's part of what I didn't like - it seemed over simplified without stating as much (or saying there would be more depth later) while at the same time it felt like I was being talked to as a child that didn't know any better.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
In short, the majority of our healing comes from WG and SM, and Rejuvenation is the primary way to turn extra mana into throughput. Because all of those are HoTs, they're often not fast enough to keep up with incoming damage -- so when healing the raid we have a clear incentive to go for throughput stats over Spirit. (I'm gemming Int/Mastery/Spirit after my haste breakpoint, by the way.)


This simply isn't true at all. In a 25m and for progression this tier, there are many instances that allow a Druid to convert any excess mana into additional healing by being more aggressive with their Rejuv blanketing. Rejuv may be less efficient than WG/SM, but it is your top heal.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
When things go badly sometimes additional casts will provide your more throughput, but sometimes having stronger spells will. It depends on your: Class, Gear, mana intensity of the fight, AoE-vs-Single target damage.

Class: As a shaman 1 single Rain tick on 6 players does more healing than a Chain Heal typically does. If Rain works in a fight, I can get more output by making it stronger than casting Chain Heal. Likewise, if the raid is in trouble you'll see holy priest mastery go berserk as it's overhealing plummets.

Gear: Going from 50 to 51 casts of Rejuv will be a large %healing increase than going from 100 to 101 casts of Rejuv. There is also an issue of having enough mana to put out your efficient spells, and finally having enough mana to cast spells throughout the time periods where the raid does get crazy low. Once you outgear the "efficient rotation" and "scary time healing", then spirit's value basically becomes a pad that allows you to cast filler heals recklessly.

Mana intensity of the fight: Empress was famous for draining mana. Amber shaper was not. The more time in the fight you spend casting lot of heals the more mana you'll need. More downtime means you'll need less regen because being able to chain cast big heals through downtime provides only overhealing (unless you can cast shields that will be effective later).

AoE-vs-Single Target: Everyone's awesome efficient heals are mostly AoE healing spells. Imagine a situation where you basically rarely use those spells and are mainly just tank healing the whole time. Subtracking out the high throughput, high efficiency AoE heals benefits spirit massively as your "baseline healing at minimum mana" will be very low.

All of these things much be considered.

Mainly, if you are doing a progression fight and you frequently find yourself casting spells just because you have the mana to, even though they are largely ineffective, it's DEFINATELY time to cut out some spirit for some oomph and just stop dumping mana in wasteful ways.
There is a middle ground that only math can tell however, where boosting your powerful efficient spells would benefit your healing more than casting more fillers. Just because some people aren't topped off doesn't mean you MUST be casting, as long as your powerful spells are making up for you not casting 100% of the time.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
15810
People told me there were various threads here talking about my October post. I don't want to get into a long colloquy about it; some posters are already making most of the points I would have. Just a few things though.

I could have tweaked the post slightly in terms of tone and to sound it like overreached a bit less, but I still stand by what were meant to be the main points. I do, however, generally prefer my series of Healing Theory posts from this year. Find the 3 so far at:
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/category/warcraft/
I think they reach the same takeaways that were meant from the Int/Spi post (among various other things), and are hopefully written more clearly. Part 3 in particular is about the thought process of evaluating regen.

As to the first Int/Spi post:
It was, more than anything else, a reaction to the widespread notion immediately post-expansion that elevating Spirit was of prime importance to low-geared healers, even to the point where Spirit flasks were seeing common use. I wanted to rebut or call into question some of these common notions:
--that the right amount of Spirit is determined solely by feel or playstyle, and not by a mathematical look at what each added point of it buys you,
--that there even is a "right" amount of Spirit--some target amount for which if you're below, you rush to get Spirit and if you're above, you get other stats,
--that Spirit is somehow heavily favored when you're less well-geared than you'd like.
--that Spirit flasks/food are ever likely to be a worthwhile tradeoff.

Some of the responses on this and other threads seem to understand those points and point out that the post could have been written a little differently. Some others though continue to walk right into the above presuppositions or myths, and so have missed the point entirely. For both groups--I'd consider the first post as an assertion, essentially, that all those bits of common wisdom should not be trusted, and more recent posts as a more detailed exploration.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]