The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/07/2013 05:45 PMPosted by Viena
That doesn't work with H council, btw. Not with what I was specifically doing with those emergency heals. How exactly will having more thorughput make Frostbite end faster? Will it make Discharge last less time? What about Dark Power? Will it cause Twisted Fate to do less damage and end more quickly?


They do work though. If I can heal that with say half holy lights and half divine lights and a spirit based pally has to use 70-80% divine lights I did the same healing but used less mana and then required less regen to make it through the fight.


You've never seen Heroic Council. That completely works on Normal. It doesn't work on Heroic where you're chaining Purity and every healer in the raid is pouring healing into the Frostbite because if someone doesn't get a heal off, they die.
Edited by Tiriel on 4/7/2013 5:50 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
You've never seen Heroic Council. That completely works on Normal. It doesn't work on Heroic where you're chaining Purity and every healer in the raid is pouring healing into the Frostbite because if someone doesn't get a heal off, they die.


Its still the same situation. I can do the same output using less mana and in turn require less spirit to make it through the fight.

To be clear, im not saying everyone should be gearing throughput. Im not even arguing that throughput is optimal in my situation (in my experience it is for myself and my raid). Im trying to fight the notion that if you are going oom then you need more spirit without other considerations. Spirit may be better for your class. Heck it may be better for most classes. But, if you are going oom, both throughput and spirit are valid considerations to remedy this situation.
Edited by Viena on 4/7/2013 6:19 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
11345
That doesn't work with H council, btw. Not with what I was specifically doing with those emergency heals. How exactly will having more thorughput make Frostbite end faster? Will it make Discharge last less time? What about Dark Power? Will it cause Twisted Fate to do less damage and end more quickly?


It works just fine on heroic council. Of course more throughput doesn't end frostbite faster, but if your PoM / shields / SS / penance are stronger you won't have to flash heal as often.

Predictable heavy damage phases (not saying the targets are predictable, just that you know "lots of damage inc" - such as during frostbite / discharge / twisted fate) are quite good for throughput gearing, as during high damage phases you are able to push out more healing than someone geared for regen, and during "light" healing phases you can cast one or two less filler heals without endangering the raid.

Most people don't do this because it is either too difficult or because it is counterintuitive to their understanding of how healing functions, but it does work.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/07/2013 06:39 PMPosted by Amabella
That doesn't work with H council, btw. Not with what I was specifically doing with those emergency heals. How exactly will having more thorughput make Frostbite end faster? Will it make Discharge last less time? What about Dark Power? Will it cause Twisted Fate to do less damage and end more quickly?


It works just fine on heroic council. Of course more throughput doesn't end frostbite faster, but if your PoM / shields / SS / penance are stronger you won't have to flash heal as often.

Predictable heavy damage phases (not saying the targets are predictable, just that you know "lots of damage inc" - such as during frostbite / discharge / twisted fate) are quite good for throughput gearing, as during high damage phases you are able to push out more healing than someone geared for regen, and during "light" healing phases you can cast one or two less filler heals without endangering the raid.

Most people don't do this because it is either too difficult or because it is counterintuitive to their understanding of how healing functions, but it does work.


Maybe in 10 man but not in 25.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
11345
It works fine on 25 man, and it's actually quite a bit easier to pull off (although I would not have a spec that gets a huge additional benefit from spirit be the first one to do it).

The point is not that more throughput is always better - I don't think anyone (competent) is saying that. However, saying that more spirit is always better is just as incorrect.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
It works fine on 25 man, and it's actually quite a bit easier to pull off (although I would not have a spec that gets a huge additional benefit from spirit be the first one to do it).

The point is not that more throughput is always better - I don't think anyone (competent) is saying that. However, saying that more spirit is always better is just as incorrect.


Your guild hasn't killed anything on 25 man so how exactly would you know?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
0
When you only consider the mana gained from spirit, it might be tempting to conclude that long fights versus short fights doesn't matter. However, what matters is total mana available over the course of a fight. For that, we must consider initial mana. For short fights, initial mana is going to have a significantly larger impact than on long fights.


While true, answer me this, which is more important for determining how much spirit you need to successfully heal an encounter without running OOM, the encounter length or the damage patterns present in the encounter?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/07/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Volios
When you only consider the mana gained from spirit, it might be tempting to conclude that long fights versus short fights doesn't matter. However, what matters is total mana available over the course of a fight. For that, we must consider initial mana. For short fights, initial mana is going to have a significantly larger impact than on long fights.


While true, answer me this, which is more important for determining how much spirit you need to successfully heal an encounter without running OOM, the encounter length or the damage patterns present in the encounter?


They're both important. I think you missed the word "tends."
Edited by Tiriel on 4/7/2013 7:08 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
11345
Your guild hasn't killed anything on 25 man so how exactly would you know?


Because I have done 10mans for the last 6 months out of the game's... what, 8 years clearly means I know nothing about 25mans.

Not sure if serious.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
11345
Suppose you are running OOM on a particular fight with your current stats, and a magical crab offers you either 2000 spirit or 10000 intellect as a permanent buff for the rest of the raid night.

Which do you take?

Obviously you'd take the intellect (if you say spirit here you're absolutely a lost cause and I guess I'm done posting).

Given that, there exists an amount of throughput where it'd be more useful than additional regen. All I'm saying is that you should correctly evaluate what these tradeoffs are instead of assuming that "I need more spirit" is the only logical conclusion to follow "I'm running out of mana". In some cases it's correct to sacrifice regen for throughput (if the tradeoff is good, such as using a higher ilevel piece that is say, crit mastery instead of your lower ilevel piece with spirit), but that people generally don't weigh these sorts of things accurately and instead go on "feel" which leads them to trust their intuition.

Unfortunately, people's intuition does not always line up with math.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
0
They're both important. I think you missed the word "tends."


Forgive me but this response is like responding with yes when someone asks you if you want a fork or a spoon. I didn't ask whether they were both important. I asked which one is more important... and it was a rhetorical question by the way.

My main point with my initial comment was just because encounter Y takes 10 minutes to defeat and encounter X takes 6 minutes to defeat doesn't necessarily mean encounter Y requires more spirit to defeat.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
My main point with my initial comment was just because encounter Y takes 10 minutes to defeat and encounter X takes 6 minutes to defeat doesn't necessarily mean encounter Y requires more spirit to defeat.

Actually, since there's very, very little difference in the value of Spirit in terms of casts per unit time after about 4-5 minutes (depending on where you want to set the cutoff for "very, very little"), fight length is largely irrelevant even if you grant that the encounters have similar mechanics. Spirit just doesn't do that much this expansion - it equalizes pretty quickly to account for about 1/3 of your available mana.
Edited by Kaels on 4/7/2013 7:58 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
16225
I like spirit.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/07/2013 07:24 PMPosted by Volios
They're both important. I think you missed the word "tends."


Forgive me but this response is like responding with yes when someone asks you if you want a fork or a spoon. I didn't ask whether they were both important. I asked which one is more important... and it was a rhetorical question by the way.

My main point with my initial comment was just because encounter Y takes 10 minutes to defeat and encounter X takes 6 minutes to defeat doesn't necessarily mean encounter Y requires more spirit to defeat.


You can't evaluate something like that in a vacuum. I understand you're trying to make a point, but you need to pick another way to do it. It's more than just fight length, or even damage patterns. It's also class, spec, and what you're doing. All I said was that Spirit tends to be more important in longer fights than it is in shorter encounters.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
I think we've gotten saturated here. The points and arguments have been repeated many, many times, by both sides, and I don't think we can really pull any meaningful ideas from this. Really, I don't see any reason to continue to argue on about something that, ultimately, is based on preference.


Because the point we're trying to make is that its *not* based on preference.

Why is 0 mana at the end always used as some sort of bench marker for just enough spirit? :P


What does Spirit do? It gives you a set amount of extra mana based on fight length. Don't think about it as mana regen, think of it as a chunk of extra mana the game hands you. Essentially the same thing, but it helps you compare to other stats more easily.

Say that chunk you get is, oh, 100,000 mana. You end the fight with exactly 100,000 mana. Essentially, all of your Spirit was 100% wasted on that fight (because you didn't need it to get to the end of the fight).

From this follows that theoretically, every point of mana that you end with at the end of the fight represents Spirit you didn't need.

Obviously, its a purely theoretical point, because in reality you might use *a little* more or less mana each pull depending on RNG or people's fire-standing skills, so you really want a little cushion. But theoretically, the point at which you no longer hit 0 mana is the point at which Spirit stops having value for you on that fight.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 2:31 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/08/2013 02:17 AMPosted by Ramayana
I think we've gotten saturated here. The points and arguments have been repeated many, many times, by both sides, and I don't think we can really pull any meaningful ideas from this. Really, I don't see any reason to continue to argue on about something that, ultimately, is based on preference.


Because the point we're trying to make is that its *not* based on preference.

Why is 0 mana at the end always used as some sort of bench marker for just enough spirit? :P


What does Spirit do? It gives you a set amount of extra mana based on fight length. Don't think about it as mana regen, think of it as a chunk of extra mana the game hands you. Essentially the same thing, but it helps you compare to other stats more easily.

Say that chunk you get is, oh, 100,000 mana. You end the fight with exactly 100,000 mana. Essentially, all of your Spirit was 100% wasted on that fight (because you didn't need it to get to the end of the fight).

From this follows that theoretically, every point of mana that you end with at the end of the fight represents Spirit you didn't need.

Obviously, its a purely theoretical point, because in reality you might use *a little* more or less mana each pull depending on RNG or people's fire-standing skills, so you really want a little cushion. But theoretically, the point at which you no longer hit 0 mana is the point at which Spirit stops having value for you on that fight.


I don't understand why you keep saying this. It's like you've never been in a fight where things went sideways. Like you've never been in an encounter that took you 20, 30, even 40+ wipes to down. Gearing for perfect play is stupid, quite frankly. Progression means people are going to play imperfectly. Having that extra mana can mean the difference between an attempt being a wipe...or being your first kill.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
I don't understand why you keep saying this. It's like you've never been in a fight where things went sideways. Like you've never been in an encounter that took you 20, 30, even 40+ wipes to down. Gearing for perfect play is stupid, quite frankly. Progression means people are going to play imperfectly. Having that extra mana can mean the difference between an attempt being a wipe...or being your first kill.


And that's why I say, at the bottom of the previous post, that in reality, you should have a cushion of extra mana at the end.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 2:38 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
What does Spirit do? It gives you a set amount of extra mana based on fight length. Don't think about it as mana regen, think of it as a chunk of extra mana the game hands you. Essentially the same thing, but it helps you compare to other stats more easily.

Say that chunk you get is, oh, 100,000 mana. You end the fight with exactly 100,000 mana. Essentially, all of your Spirit was 100% wasted on that fight (because you didn't need it to get to the end of the fight).


The biggest flaw to this is that you assume mana expenditure is linear, and it's not. You could end the fight with 100,000 mana and still have gone OOM multiple times during the encounter, and that's where the buffer from having higher Spirit comes in.

Also, ending the fight 100,000 mana isn't Spirit that's wasted on the fight. It's essentially spell casts that were wasted, as most classes have a way to convert the extra mana into more healing by being more aggressive.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Also, ending the fight 100,000 mana isn't Spirit that's wasted on the fight. It's essentially spell casts that were wasted, as most classes have a way to convert the extra mana into more healing by being more aggressive.


This assumes that there's a never ending well of damage to heal. Unless we're talking Tsulong, that's just not true.

Also, if you got to the end of the fight playing this way - does it really *matter* (other than on meters) if you did that "aggressive" (read: snipe) healing or not?

The biggest flaw to this is that you assume mana expenditure is linear, and it's not. You could end the fight with 100,000 mana and still have gone OOM multiple times during the encounter, and that's where the buffer from having higher Spirit comes in.


If we shrink the window (say, a big damage phase that lasts 30 seconds that has the potential to run you temporarily OOM) you also shrink the value of Spirit (because it comes in small ticks at a predictable rate and you'll only have 30 seconds instead of 5-10 minutes of ticks) and increase the value of throughput (because you're likely popping CDs that scale with throughput but not Spirit like Tranq, etc. to get through said high damage phase).

Where is Spirit the most valuable? Well, if we accept Hamlet's conclusions, whenever you have to spam your "Spirit-based" heals (like Rejuv, POH, etc). So in said big damage phase, yes you'll probably be spamming those heals. But how do raids really get through this type of big damage phase? Rolling healer CDs that scale with throughput (not all of them do, of course, like Devo Aura or SLT - which may mean that Spirit is better for those classes). Once you are done with the big healer CD, then you spam your "Spirit-based" heal. However, added throughput is helping you the whole time (it buffs your Tranq and it buffs your Rejuv) while Sprit only helps at the end with the mop up healing (it only buffs your Rejuv by letting you cast a few more of them and doesn't buff your CD at all).
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 6:15 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
This assumes that there's a never ending well of damage to heal. Unless we're talking Tsulong, that's just not true.

Also, if you got to the end of the fight playing this way - does it really *matter* (other than on meters) if you did that "aggressive" (read: snipe) healing or not?


That's actually pretty true for most of the later HMs this tier. There is a lot of constant damage to be healed.

Also, if you got to the end of the fight with 100k mana, does it really matter? The boss is dead, so clearly the additional output from secondary stats wasn't needed.

If we shrink the window (say, a big damage phase that lasts 30 seconds that has the potential to run you temporarily OOM) you also shrink the value of Spirit (because it comes in small ticks at a predictable rate and you'll only have 30 seconds instead of 5-10 minutes of ticks) and increase the value of throughput (because you're likely popping CDs that scale with throughput but not Spirit like Tranq, etc. to get through said high damage phase).


Except that you'll almost always have multiple instances of the 30 second big damage phase. Having more Spirit allows you to recover your mana more quickly if you go OOM during one of them.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]