The age old debate - Int vs spirit

90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Just to clarify the "ending fights while you OOM" argument, the intention is that by gauging your mana and measuring your confidence, you can burn your mana a little more liberally if possible such that you will end a fight OOM. And it doesn't necessarily have to be literally OOM, just ending at a value other than 80% or 50% mana.

I agree that having some cushion can be ideal, and that a large factor in healing is being prepared for the unexpected hazards that sometimes heavily tax your mana.

That being said, the Spirit cap is still a theoretical term that has often been used in theoretical contexts. Whether people are actually using the term with any relevance or significance is for the reader to decide, I suppose.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
That's actually pretty true for most of the later HMs this tier. There is a lot of constant damage to be healed.


So that brings us back to the original question - which gets you more healing, more Spirit, or more throughput? There *is* a mathematical answer. For some classes, it might be Spirit. For others, it might be more throughput.

Also, if you got to the end of the fight with 100k mana, does it really matter? The boss is dead, so clearly the additional output from secondary stats wasn't needed.


If you got to the end of the fight doing 20k less DPS than everyone else in the raid, does it really matter? The boss is dead, so clearly your additional DPS that you could have gotten from better reforging/gemming/enchanting wasn't needed.

Except that you'll almost always have multiple instances of the 30 second big damage phase. Having more Spirit allows you to recover your mana more quickly if you go OOM during one of them.


Or, you could have had more throughput which allowed you to spend less mana to get through those 30 second windows. I'm not saying I know which one is better.

I'm not trying to say that stacking Spirit is always wrong. What I'm trying to point out is that when you stack Spirit, it isn't free - you're giving up throughput to get that Spirit, and you can figure out with math which one (more throughput or more Spirit) would actually give you more healing.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 6:25 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
So that brings us back to the original question - which gets you more healing, more Spirit, or more throughput? There *is* a mathematical answer. For some classes, it might be Spirit. For others, it might be more throughput.


This doesn't say much at all. People should obviously be basing how much Spirit they need on their own individual experiences, and a large part of that is clearly affected by their healing class.

If you got to the end of the fight doing 20k less DPS than everyone else in the raid, does it really matter? The boss is dead, so clearly your additional DPS that you could have gotten from better reforging/gemming/enchanting wasn't needed.


I think you'll find that how a healer gems or reforges actually has very little bearing on his output. Other factors like spell and target selection play a much important role in dictating final output.

The one benefit of having more Spirit is that it gives you more freedom to use one's emergency heals. The value of this cannot be quantified on the meters.

Or, you could have had more throughput which allowed you to spend less mana to get through those 30 second windows. I'm not saying I know which one is better. I'm just saying that you can measure this mathematically and find the right answer.


This isn't the case. Regardless of how you gem/reforge, you'll find yourself chain casting during high damage phases.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
This doesn't say much at all. People should obviously be basing how much Spirit they need on their own individual experiences, and a large part of that is clearly affected by their healing class.


The bolded part is the error. Players shouldn't be adjusting their gear to fit their playstyle, they should be adjusting their playstyle to fit the most effective gearing strategy. Once we get past THAT hurdle, we can start having real discussions about whether Spirit or throughput is better.

I think you'll find that how a healer gems or reforges actually has very little bearing on his output. Other factors like spell and target selection play a much important role in dictating final output.


They're about as valuable in terms of output as they are for DPS, and yet DPS have endless mathematical discussions about which is better. Also, if you think gems/enchants/reforges are so worthless, I'd like to see the math (and put it up against the value that a DPS gets out of suchh augmentation).

This isn't the case. Regardless of how you gem/reforge, you'll find yourself chain casting during high damage phases.


Try it sometime, and you'll find it makes a difference (it depends on spec/class, I find throughput stacking to be much more helpful on my Monk than on my Disc Priest - but my Holy spec on my Priest likes throughput).
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Try it sometime, and you'll find it makes a difference (it depends on spec/class, I find throughput stacking to be much more helpful on my Monk than on my Disc Priest - but my Holy spec on my Priest likes throughput).


Think you are missing his point. Pretty sure he is saying that your overall throughput will be tied more to your healing choices rather than the different haste/crit/mastery points you reach.

Otherwise all healer would put out the same healing. What makes the difference is spell selection.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
/dizzy
I agree with whoever said this thread has become repetition.

I do greatly enjoy the mistweaver claiming throughput is better, while disc priests claim spirit is better. It's like, mistweaver throughput on their baseline spells (renewing/uplfit) just goes through the roof when things go sideways. And like, disc's can effective heal spam (PW:S/SSh) even when most other heals would do almost entirely overheal if they spend more mana.

Crazy.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Think you are missing his point. Pretty sure he is saying that your overall throughput will be tied more to your healing choices rather than the different haste/crit/mastery points you reach.

Otherwise all healer would put out the same healing. What makes the difference is spell selection.


Take your average joe DPS. Assume he's doing the right rotation. Now take your top end DPS. Assume he's doing about the same rotation (he's probably a lot better at doing things like lining up CDs with procs and getting the extra ounce of DPS). So there, yes, spell choice (ie, popping CDs with trinkets) made a big difference.

Lets look at the average joe, and say he's reforging into a weak stat. If he reforges, will his DPS go up? Yes.

Now lets look at that top end DPS. Lets say he's also reforging into a weaker stat (maybe he wasn't up to date on the patch notes or something :P). Will his DPS go up significantly if he starts reforging for the right stat? Yes.

Will spell choice have a big effect on healing? Yes. But everyone, from the average joe to the top end player, will benefit from better reforging/gemming/enchanting. In fact, I'd say the higher your skill level the *more* benefit you'd get from better gearing.

I do greatly enjoy the mistweaver claiming throughput is better, while disc priests claim spirit is better. It's like, mistweaver throughput on their baseline spells (renewing/uplfit) just goes through the roof when things go sideways. And like, disc's can effective heal spam (PW:S/SSh) even when most other heals would do almost entirely overheal if they spend more mana.


But you still have Mistweavers out there stacking Spirit out the wazoo as if they were Disc Priests. I'm trying to plant the idea that maybe, just *maybe* there isn't some magical "do what's right for you" Spirit level thats different for every player. Spirit is better for some classes than others, yes. It just isn't better for some players than others.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 6:53 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
He never said that reforging doesn't make a difference. He said that spell selection makes a bigger difference.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
Tis also true though.... how you gear, unless you have a dud stat (hpally haste), doesn't make that much of a difference compared to other factors.

Our other shaman and I just go back and forth on the meters. He's at like 12k spirit and 30% haste. I'm at 17.5k spirit and 12.5% haste (and more crit/mastery).

That's a drastic difference in gearing right? On paper sure. In reality, not so much. Except he has 1.9 sec CH casts. Which I'm so jealous of that I'm likely to join him, though I don't have to give up as much as my mana pole empowerment to do it.

You could argue that his lack of haste would hurt single target healing, but then you realize he's getting more HST ticks, more riptide ticks, his TW-(G)HW's are the same cast time as my Surges. Completely different gearing with fairly similar results.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
He never said that reforging doesn't make a difference. He said that spell selection makes a bigger difference.


That doesn't change the fact that there's a mathematical, "best" answer between Spirit and throughput, and while it might vary from class to class, it doesn't vary from player to player.

Tis also true though.... how you gear, unless you have a dud stat (hpally haste), doesn't make that much of a difference compared to other factors.

Our other shaman and I just go back and forth on the meters. He's at like 12k spirit and 30% haste. I'm at 17.5k spirit and 12.5% haste (and more crit/mastery).

That's a drastic difference in gearing right? On paper sure. In reality, not so much. Except he has 1.9 sec CH casts. Which I'm so jealous of that I'm likely to join him, though I don't have to give up as much as my mana pole empowerment to do it.

You could argue that his lack of haste would hurt single target healing, but then you realize he's getting more HST ticks, more riptide ticks, his TW-(G)HW's are the same cast time as my Surges. Completely different gearing with fairly similar results.


I'm not arguing that Spirit/Throughput is more important than spell choice. I'm arguing that, assuming that spell choice is optimal, there's a mathematical answer to the Spirit/Throughput debate.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 7:01 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
I'm not arguing that Spirit/Throughput is more important than spell choice. I'm arguing that, assuming that spell choice is optimal, there's a mathematical answer to the Spirit/Throughput debate.

I agree with that, on the first page I posted the gist of my mathematical model to deal exactly with that for a pure raid healing perspective.

As long as the model a player picks takes into account a reasonable number of "Surges/Flash Heals" to keep the tanks up / debuffs up, in that progression fight, I see no real issue with going by a mathematical model. I love mathematical models. The fact is that casting Flash/Surge heals is NOT ideal for max HPS. But they are necessary to kill the boss.

That being said, back to the stat choice stuff... for shaman's I've mathed out 30%-AS haste build vs 12.5%-EM haste build... the breakpoints nearly wash out the HPS loss you occur from losing Crit/Mastery. Obviously you need a lot of ToT gear to not lose too much spirit gems as well. So mathematically... swapping between the builds shouldn't have changed his and my HPS relative to each other in any significant ways.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The bolded part is the error. Players shouldn't be adjusting their gear to fit their playstyle, they should be adjusting their playstyle to fit the most effective gearing strategy. Once we get past THAT hurdle, we can start having real discussions about whether Spirit or throughput is better.


Basing your spell choices on gearing may sound good on paper, but it doesn't pan out so well in theory. Ultimately, doing so forces you into making more rigid choices. By prioritizing throughput stats over Spirit, you're implicitly favoring your more efficient heals. However, you'll find that you often have to cast your inefficient heals on progression, and I'd rather a healer have the buffer from the extra Spirit to do so.

Also, assuming a decent level of competency, where exactly is the error in adjusting your Spirit levels based on your experiences with healing the encounter? There have been many times this tier where I've felt that I had too much Spirit and vice versa, and optimizing my gear based on my experience with the content seems to be the most optimal solution. This is especially since there really isn't an optimal healing rotation, at least not one that's completely set in stone.

That doesn't change the fact that there's a mathematical, "best" answer between Spirit and throughput, and while it might vary from class to class, it doesn't vary from player to player.


See, this is the entire issue. You claim there is a 'best' answer, yet there never actually are any numbers or exact figures to go by. The sheer fact that the amount of healing required varies between attempts on the same boss, and the fact that some mechanics can be rather RNG, makes it practically impossible to recommend a fixed amount of Spirit to have for a specific class.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/8/2013 7:33 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
5925
However, you'll find that you often have to cast your inefficient heals on progression, and I'd rather a healer have the buffer from the extra Spirit to do so.


But if you have more throughput stats, this will happen *less* often than it would otherwise, because there will be more times that your efficient heals are big enough to do the job. That's what throughput stats are for, after all.

Extra Spirit is great, but you can't just have extra spirit, you have to trade something else for spirit. Too many people look at the benefit of spirit and not the opportunity cost of spirit.

04/08/2013 07:25 AMPosted by Ceddya
Also, assuming a decent level of competency, where exactly is the error in adjusting your Spirit levels based on your experiences with healing the encounter?


Nothing, but if you don't understand and account for what that spirit is costing you, you can't really make that adjustment effectively. Don't just think "what would more spirit do for me", but "what would I have to give up for more spirit and would that end up hurting me more than it helps".
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Basing your spell choices on gearing may sound good on paper, but it doesn't pan out so well in theory. Ultimately, doing so forces you into making more rigid choices. By prioritizing throughput stats over Spirit, you're implicitly favoring your more efficient heals. However, you'll find that you often have to cast your inefficient heals on progression, and I'd rather a healer have the buffer from the extra Spirit to do so.

Also, assuming a decent level of competency, where exactly is the error in adjusting your Spirit levels based on your experiences with healing the encounter? There have been many times this tier where I've felt that I had too much Spirit and vice versa, and optimizing my gear based on my experience with the content seems to be the most optimal solution. This is especially since there really isn't an optimal healing rotation, at least not one that's completely set in stone.


Situation #1

First, some assumptions.

- I'm talking right now about periods of sustained high damage (something like, say, Garalon when there's a lot of Pheromone stacks out).

- The raid is relatively stacked.

- You'll always cast your CD heal first. A raid healing Holy Priest is going to cast something along the lines of Divine Hymn, Holy Word: Sanctuary, level 90 talent, then Circle of Healing and Prayer of Mending, and then fill the rest of the time they have available between those cooldowns with Prayer of Healing.

In this situation, there is a cap on the ratio of CD spells to efficient spells (Prayer of Healing, in this case). If you assume you always cast your CD spells on CD, there is only a finite number of POH casts you can fit in between them, and thus, there's a cap on how valuable Spirit will be in this situation.

Situation #2

Assumptions:

- One player is low on health and is in danger of dying to incoming damage in the next 3 seconds. (I'm thinking of a player who was stacked up for Caw and got smacked down to about 10%, and Quills is coming up in 3 seconds).

- You will cast your highest HPS single target spell, regardless of cost. (I'd say even a Serenity Chakra Holy Priest would avoid casting HW:Serenity although I'm not 100% sure if FH is actually higher HPS than HW:Serenity. I'd assume a Disc Priest would cast a PW:S, Monk would probably cast Surging Mist).

Look at your average healer spreadsheet, and you'll see this ratio often calculated: HPM, healing divided by mana. When you assume that Spirit just gives you a chunk of mana, doled out in small increments over the course of the fight, this ratio can be looked at in another way: Healing divided by Spirit. So another way of saying a spell has high HPM is saying that spell benefits very well from Spirit. Thus, POH and Greater Heal are spells that like Spirit. However, Flash Heal doesn't like Spirit *at all*. In fact, the more you have to use Flash Heal over, say Greater Heal, the less benefit you are actually getting from your Spirit!

All that last point really emphasizes is that any point where you have to cast your Flash Heal equivalent to save a life is probably a point where your target has made a mistake, unless it was a tank, and even then it was probably a mistake.

Would it still be beneficial to stack Spirit if you knew that you were going into a fight that would force you to cast Flash Heal equivalents over and over? I don't know, but the relatively low benefit from Spirit that Flash Heal equivalents get leads me to think no.

Finally, gearing like this doesn't create a rigid playstyle. You, the player, still have to decide what situation you are in. Are you in Situation #1 or Situation #2? Or perhaps a situation where you need sustained, efficient healing on a single target (sort of like Splash on Lei Shi, at least at the start). Perhaps you're in a situation where the damage is light, no one's in danger, and there's no reason to blow an excessive amount of resources healing things up when background healing from CDs throughout the raid (COH, Wild Growth, Healing Rain, and the like) will do the job just fine? No theorycrafter can tell you which situation you are in. Theorycrafting can only tell you that once you've chosen the situation you are in, which spells are best suited for the job and which stat is the best to have on your gear for those situations.

I agree with that, on the first page I posted the gist of my mathematical model to deal exactly with that for a pure raid healing perspective.


You left out the CD math for Shamans. I'd actually be interested in seeing that.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/8/2013 8:47 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Druid
12295
See, this is the entire issue. You claim there is a 'best' answer, yet there never actually are any numbers or exact figures to go by. The sheer fact that the amount of healing required varies between attempts on the same boss, and the fact that some mechanics can be rather RNG, makes it practically impossible to recommend a fixed amount of Spirit to have for a specific class.


This is the truth. Often I will sacrifice throughput for a margin of "safety", to provide for the unexpected.

Progression kills are often like this, downing a boss with a healer dead, your DPS did not quite make a check and got got an extra couple pulses of X aoe damage, you have to spam (as a Druid) regrowth due to some someone off-tanking while rezzing a tank, etc..

Spirit will always be a case by case, fight by fight stat, that is entirely based on yourself and your raid comp. You may have two Shaman stacked with 21k spirit, or you may have none.. so many factors.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
This is the truth. Often I will sacrifice throughput for a margin of "safety", to provide for the unexpected.


You'd be better off stacking more throughput, in most cases (especially as a Druid).
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
04/08/2013 08:38 AMPosted by Ramayana
I agree with that, on the first page I posted the gist of my mathematical model to deal exactly with that for a pure raid healing perspective.


You left out the CD math for Shamans. I'd actually be interested in seeing that.

Well I ended up with two models that were roughly 10% away from each other.
Keep in mind that both begin with a relevant log of a fight.

The first assumes HR, HST, HTT, RT, (ELW) usage won't increase with more mana, and will be used as many times as you used them. Ascendance is just removed from consideration as at reasonable spirit (epic gear) you'll cast fully during it anyways.
So you figure out all the mana you'd spend casting these abilities (figure out how many times you casted each). Convert that to MP5. Figure out your current MP5 (including every possible source of regen/mp5). The difference between [CD mp5 spent] and [Current MP5] is [mp5 spent on fillers].
Now first let's assuming you go from casting nothing to casting more fillers:
[% of healing from fillers]*[mp5 gained from X spirit]/[mp5 spent on fillers]=[%HPS gain from X spirit]

Alternatively, you could assume you are chain casting HW already. This would be considered upgrading HW to GHW or HS (or CH, that's trickier). In this case you take the difference in the healing done per cast of upgraded spell vs HW (log based average heals), and you calculate how much more healing you get per mana (include resurgence). Take extra healing per mana, multiply by mana gains from X spirit. Divide that number by total healing done in the fight... resulting in the % increase to healing done.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
6140
Right now I am more debating do I reforge some mastery into more spirit. I currently only run with 6500 spirit and do not have mana issues. My guild is running 10M normal so I cannot speak for harder content. We run me, a monk, and a disc priest. I play simple, lifebloom and rejuv on tanks all the time, SM if people are stacked if not on tank to get SotF and then WG. Rarely cast regrowth unless OOC proc or need quick heals. But once I get my T15 4 piece and the added bonus to rejuv would it be more beneficial to stack spirit to be able to cast more rejuvs?
Reply Quote
100 Undead Priest
10430

Also, if you got to the end of the fight with 100k mana, does it really matter? The boss is dead, so clearly the additional output from secondary stats wasn't needed.


This is like a person who cares what pieces were left on the board after being check-mated in chess. The game is over, they lost, yet they still cry "I would have gotten you next turn!" like it even matters anymore. The game is over, or in WoW terms the boss is dead.

What matters is helping a person overcome a boss that is not currently dead.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Right now I am more debating do I reforge some mastery into more spirit. I currently only run with 6500 spirit and do not have mana issues. My guild is running 10M normal so I cannot speak for harder content. We run me, a monk, and a disc priest. I play simple, lifebloom and rejuv on tanks all the time, SM if people are stacked if not on tank to get SotF and then WG. Rarely cast regrowth unless OOC proc or need quick heals. But once I get my T15 4 piece and the added bonus to rejuv would it be more beneficial to stack spirit to be able to cast more rejuvs?


I don't know, but the stronger Rejuv gets the stronger Spirit gets. That doesn't necessarily mean stacking Spirit is the right answer. Harmony is a pretty strong Mastery.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]