Time to revive the old trinity?

90 Troll Priest
10205
So been raiding since the start of the expansion and I'm slowly realizing something, even at the start I was barely casting "heal", but now I'm barely even touching greater heal, there both much too slow, in 2.3 sec the person is just gonna be dead by then. Even flash heal is pretty slow for snipe healing situation.

So shouldn't they re-vamp the entire system, it worked fine in cata because health were overall less jumpy and the tight mana situation called for it, but now the trinity just feel like a relic that doesn't really have a place in the faster pace environment (many will disagree with me, but to me healing never was better than during cata, even as a resto shaman I still had a blast, of all the expansion i've healed cata>>>LK>>>>>>MoP). In LK everything was reactionary, but your toolkit was build around for that, near infinite mana, but now we don't have the mana to spam flash heal, but heal/greater heal are too slow/weak and most class rely on their special spell to do the job.

Thought?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I never cast Heal, even in Cata.
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100 Orc Shaman
10190
I'm not sure if you're talking about priests in general, but as a shaman, despite tidal waves, I still don't have much issue with the cast timers. I wish sometimes they were quicker, but I still don't think they are too bad. Shamans have a lot of cooldowns for tight areas though. I'm also gearing towards haste right now...
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65 Dwarf Shaman
10415
The 'holy trinity' of healing really never existed in Cata. Except for Paladins, arguably.
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100 Human Priest
18405
I use it for strength of soul and grace stacking (just like I did in cata), but there are other more efficient/effective ways of approaching the damage patterns that make those playstyles styles unwarrented (cough atonement spam).

I said in another thread it would be cool for discs to get borrowed time for casting a heal, fheal, or gheal on a target that has 3 stacks grace. It would also be cool to see strength of soul bumped to 3 or 4 seconds off weakened soul per direct heal. Rantrantrant it would rantrant also be rantrantrant cool if my car didn't break rantrantrantrant every season. In fact rantrant, it would be super cool rantrantrant if I had moolah rantrantrant like lots of moolah rantrantrantrant.......

Also, I think you'll get your wish with spamming spells by the end of this expansion. #throwbacktowrath
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/6/2013 12:21 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I don't think I'll ever understand your love of Heal, Twisted. I hate the damn spell and wish they'd never pushed it on us.
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90 Human Paladin
10400
I don't think I'll ever understand your love of Heal, Twisted. I hate the damn spell and wish they'd never pushed it on us.

I think he's moreso getting towards the idea of managing mana on the way out AND the way in compared to only on the way in.

Right now if I have this straight, the majority of your mana constraint is the mana you get from rapture and your ability to use that entirely dictates your spell selection. Moving it back to where you got a lot more bang for your buck when it comes to slow weak heals and not quite as much from your big heals (or from what it seems like he's saying is increase the mana cost) would add some further depth to the class.

At least that's how I figured the reasoning for his argument was, not that I agree.
Edited by Röthtwo on 4/6/2013 1:21 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/06/2013 01:13 AMPosted by Röthtwo
I don't think I'll ever understand your love of Heal, Twisted. I hate the damn spell and wish they'd never pushed it on us.

I think he's moreso getting towards the idea of managing mana on the way out AND the way in compared to only on the way in.

Right now if I have this straight, the majority of your mana constraint is the mana you get from rapture and your ability to use that entirely dictates your spell selection. Moving it back to where you got a lot more bang for your buck when it comes to slow weak heals and not quite as much from your big heals (or from what it seems like he's saying is increase the mana cost) would add some further depth to the class.

At least that's how I figured the reasoning for his argument was, not that I agree.


Nah, it would just make me re-roll. I hate small, slow, cheap (yet still inefficient for the mana you spend!) heals. The reason I like Atonement is that it doesn't have a 2.5 second cast.

I don't think I'll ever understand people who enjoy casting something sloooooooooooooow assssssss molllaaaaaaassssssuuussss....over and over and over again. Boring as hell, imo.

Also, I hope he isn't advocating for a GHeal nerf. They made it ridiculously inefficient as compared to where it was in Cata. >.>
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90 Human Paladin
10400
That was exactly his point. Make it better so it doesn't suck to cast. He proposed this in the method of it reducing weakened soul duration with all 3 heals, but heal would do this for considerably less mana during downtime. Not a perfect fix but a step in the right direction if you want to adopt this model.

Right now it's not a call for a nerf to the higher end spells, but a buff to the low end ones. Heal is intended for luls in damage and low mana situations, but it's better to use other heals at this point. Basically I think he's just saying it should be buffed to the point where it can be used equally to atonement (or potentially higher due to it not doing damage) in low damage/mana situations because it can't right now.
Edited by Röthtwo on 4/6/2013 1:46 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
That was exactly his point. Make it better so it doesn't suck to cast. He proposed this in the method of it reducing weakened soul duration with all 3 heals, but heal would do this for considerably less mana during downtime. Not a perfect fix but a step in the right direction if you want to adopt this model.

Right now it's not a call for a nerf to the higher end spells, but a buff to the low end ones. Heal is intended for luls in damage and low mana situations but it's better to use other heals at this point. Basically I think he's just saying it should be buffed to the point where it can be used equally to atonement (or potentially higher due to it not doing damage) in low damage/mana situations because it can't right now.


I will say this...I would be okay with an Atonement nerf if it came with a 1.5 second Heal (that probably healed for less, but cost less as well) and a GHeal that was back to the efficiency level that it had in Cata. I'd be okay with that. I'd even learn to love heal - if I could cast it the way that I cast Smite. And it needs to have some tangible benefit that isn't Grace, because Grace is just a horrible, annoying mechanic when you're a raid healer. I get that it works well as a tank healing device, but any time that you have to break off from healing the tank (which happens more in 10 mans than in 25s, I think, for tank healers), it's a nightmare.
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90 Human Paladin
10400
I will say this...I would be okay with an Atonement nerf if it came with a 1.5 second Heal (that probably healed for less, but cost less as well) and a GHeal that was back to the efficiency level that it had in Cata. I'd be okay with that. I'd even learn to love heal - if I could cast it the way that I cast Smite. And it needs to have some tangible benefit that isn't Grace, because Grace is just a horrible, annoying mechanic when you're a raid healer. I get that it works well as a tank healing device, but any time that you have to break off from healing the tank (which happens more in 10 mans than in 25s, I think, for tank healers), it's a nightmare.

1.5 seconds is simply too low assuming the same mana cost because you'd be seeing priests going int>whatever secondary stat maths out>spirit after a certain breakpoint and being Wrath Holy Paladins. Even if it stayed at its current heal amount it would be too strong.

2 seconds would be more than reasonable considering the situations it should be used in.
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I'll occasionally use Heal if I want to lower the duration of Weakened Soul, but that's it. And I don't think I've touched Greater Heal since I went Disc. Why use a direct heal when Atonement is so much better?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I'll occasionally use Heal if I want to lower the duration of Weakened Soul, but that's it. And I don't think I've touched Greater Heal since I went Disc. Why use a direct heal when Atonement is so much better?


Generally when I need to lower the duration of Weakened Soul, Heal is too slow to get the job done, so it's Flash Heal for me, and damn the mana cost.

I don't use Greater Heal because it's inefficient when compared to Atonement. I used it a lot in Cata, but they destroyed its efficiency in MoP, so there's kind of no point to spending the mana.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15530
The trinity is dead. Blizz needs to give up and bury it.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
04/06/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Tiriel
I'll occasionally use Heal if I want to lower the duration of Weakened Soul, but that's it. And I don't think I've touched Greater Heal since I went Disc. Why use a direct heal when Atonement is so much better?


Generally when I need to lower the duration of Weakened Soul, Heal is too slow to get the job done, so it's Flash Heal for me, and damn the mana cost.

I don't use Greater Heal because it's inefficient when compared to Atonement. I used it a lot in Cata, but they destroyed its efficiency in MoP, so there's kind of no point to spending the mana.


UNLESS You're in a 10 man and healing the tank, then it's quite nice. Especially paired with inner focus to force a DA.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
UNLESS You're in a 10 man and healing the tank, then it's quite nice. Especially paired with inner focus to force a DA.


*coughs*

I usually just use Atonement or directly Penance them. If it's intense enough for me to not use Atonement, I'm generally to the point of Flash Healing in a panic. >.>
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
I usually just use Atonement or directly Penance them. If it's intense enough for me to not use Atonement, I'm generally to the point of Flash Healing in a panic. >.>


My atonement has a bad habit of healing dps instead so I dont risk it. :P
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90 Troll Priest
10205

I will say this...I would be okay with an Atonement nerf if it came with a 1.5 second Heal (that probably healed for less, but cost less as well) and a GHeal that was back to the efficiency level that it had in Cata. I'd be okay with that. I'd even learn to love heal - if I could cast it the way that I cast Smite. And it needs to have some tangible benefit that isn't Grace, because Grace is just a horrible, annoying mechanic when you're a raid healer. I get that it works well as a tank healing device, but any time that you have to break off from healing the tank (which happens more in 10 mans than in 25s, I think, for tank healers), it's a nightmare.


Yeah thats pretty much what I'm thinking, just seriously cut down on the cast time with a small nerf to the amount healed (for all three spell, maybe even make flash instant /drool). It's just that health are just too spiky atm, people either need heal now or you can just leave it up to Hot /atonement or some random heal flying around. If there willing to do something pretty different they could change how the spell work to some sort of channel where like 50% of the healing trickle in while casting the spell.

Or just finish the trinity altogether and bring in something new, but they'd never do that mid expansion (although I,d argue the new system of having two patch per tier is perfect for introducing new mechanic mid expansion)
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90 Draenei Shaman
11175
I will say this...I would be okay with an Atonement nerf if it came with a 1.5 second Heal (that probably healed for less, but cost less as well) and a GHeal that was back to the efficiency level that it had in Cata. I'd be okay with that. I'd even learn to love heal - if I could cast it the way that I cast Smite. And it needs to have some tangible benefit that isn't Grace, because Grace is just a horrible, annoying mechanic when you're a raid healer. I get that it works well as a tank healing device, but any time that you have to break off from healing the tank (which happens more in 10 mans than in 25s, I think, for tank healers), it's a nightmare.


I do admit Grace is a bit of a pain. I wish we could just chose our target of Grace like my Pally can chose where her Beacon goes or my Shammy can choose who get's the ES. In 10 mans, if there's three healers then one is probably just on the tanks and it's a lot easier keep Grace exactly were you want it. If there's only two though, then there's the healer on the tanks and also helping with raid healing and controlling where your Grace ends up can be a bit of a pain at times.

I don't touch Heal unless something has gone terribly wrong, I'm oom and that's literally all I have mana for. There's more efficient ways (in both time and mana) to get Grace on a tank and with the spikey damage now it just seems to do nothing outside of waste my resources.
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8 Dwarf Priest
0
04/06/2013 01:52 AMPosted by Röthtwo
1.5 seconds is simply too low assuming the same mana cost because you'd be seeing priests going int>whatever secondary stat maths out>spirit after a certain breakpoint and being Wrath Holy Paladins. Even if it stayed at its current heal amount it would be too strong.


being able to react to damage quickly is too strong? oh, yeah, i guess we need arbitrary barriers between a person's mental reaction time and their physical ability to respond to a situation in order to artificially increase the difficulty of something, i suppose in order to prolong the longevity of content...yawn.

your line of thinking is so boring.

The trinity is dead. Blizz needs to give up and bury it.


it was dead almost before they even created it. people messed around with it in cata 5-mans when it was shiny and new, and everyone had lower regen, but apparently the raid design team didn't get the memo on the new heal system because HPS requirements for the first raids were well above what the "middle" heals could provide unless you were a paladin double dipping holy light with beacon, or a holy priest renew rolling in serenity. everyone else was better off ignoring those spells entirely.

why did it turn out this way? because not only did they not even bother to design for the new paradigm they were trying to give us, but the design itself was conceptually doomed. they were trying to pair "slow" and "weak" together, and call that fun. the kind of "fun" that system generates is the same "fun" you get if you design around the strengths of shaman healing (i.e. dragon soul).

if you spend more time casting something, you expect it to land with a bigger punch. that's just natural psychology.

"oh but its more mana efficient!" peh. look at the game, even today! they made EVERY int user have non-scaling amount of mana, not that it matters for dps, but this change was primarily made for healers. why? so they could get an even better handle on the mana regen thing. to try and make mana matter, again. WELL, DOES IT?

i've had one healing strategy ever since i started healing. heal the damage!!!!! worry about anything else later. to my perhaps not-so-great surprise, i found when i kept people alive, it was they who would screw something up long before i ever oom'ed. in that way, i stayed ahead of the "oops" curve of everyone else, learning where and when to put the heals so that, by the time we got 8 or 9 minutes into any fight instead of just 1 or 2, i still had mana then too.

mana has never mattered in this game. not for a single day, not to anyone who has functional brain cells.
Edited by Kolas on 4/6/2013 2:32 PM PDT
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