Holy Pallies too strong

95 Draenei Paladin
19920
They can go thru mana a lot slower

They can have HPS that's insane/off the charts & blow other healers out of the water

They are no longer just tank healers, so they can do pretty much what all other healers can do and more efficiently

So why does nobody really talk about or acknowledge how OP pallies are, and how they need a nerf or to be toned down.

More so - any healer who likes to be the OP class with big numbers - I notice Holy Pallies are *everywhere* these days. Every raid group has/uses one.

Why is one class so ignored and allowed to be so good?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11430
It's been acknowledged.

Pretty much everyone knew they were too strong, it was just overshadowed by disc being even stronger last tier.
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100 Troll Druid
12090
They can go thru mana a lot slower

They can have HPS that's insane/off the charts & blow other healers out of the water

They are no longer just tank healers, so they can do pretty much what all other healers can do and more efficiently

So why does nobody really talk about or acknowledge how OP pallies are, and how they need a nerf or to be toned down.

More so - any healer who likes to be the OP class with big numbers - I notice Holy Pallies are *everywhere* these days. Every raid group has/uses one.

Why is one class so ignored and allowed to be so good?


Pallies like any healer class help to down dragons. If I have to deal with OP Illuminated Healing and it's almost 0 OH and relegating a majority of my hots to OH then so be it. I can live being lower on meters because I'm not trying to collect gear and titles from Recount/Skada.
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35 Blood Elf Priest
0
It's been acknowledged.

Pretty much everyone knew they were too strong, it was just overshadowed by disc being even stronger last tier.


Yea man, that is why pretty much every fight on WoL has them all over the top 10 like disc priest last tier. Give me a break.
Edited by Linalee on 4/8/2013 4:50 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
04/08/2013 01:32 AMPosted by Gingerellie
They are no longer just tank healers, so they can do pretty much what all other healers can do and more efficiently


This happened in 4.0 you are late to the party.

More so - any healer who likes to be the OP class with big numbers - I notice Holy Pallies are *everywhere* these days. Every raid group has/uses one.


Because they are much more than their hps. They have arguably the best tool kit in the game. Purity is down right encounter breaking on some fights.

Why is one class so ignored and allowed to be so good?


Because they are blizzards golden class and always have been? Well at least since late BC.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13225
It's been acknowledged.

Pretty much everyone knew they were too strong, it was just overshadowed by disc being even stronger last tier.


Yea man, that is why pretty much every fight on WoL has them all over the top 10 like disc priest last tier. Give me a break.

4 words: Tier 14 4 piece.
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93 Night Elf Druid
10080

4 words: Tier 14 4 piece.


yep
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
This thread again?

They can go thru mana a lot slower

They can have HPS that's insane/off the charts & blow other healers out of the water

They are no longer just tank healers, so they can do pretty much what all other healers can do and more efficiently

So why does nobody really talk about or acknowledge how OP pallies are, and how they need a nerf or to be toned down.

More so - any healer who likes to be the OP class with big numbers - I notice Holy Pallies are *everywhere* these days. Every raid group has/uses one.

Why is one class so ignored and allowed to be so good?


This thread again?

Alright..

The mana issue... We have lots of ways to get it back. Not that we go through it slower. Trinket (10%, 3min), Potion (10-15% 1 per fight), Insight (4% per swing), Plea (12%, 2min), Racial (2%, 2 min). This is a perception issue, not a reality issue.

HPS.... We have good HPS, but so do other classes. Depending on the fight, I will be beaten by priests or druids. Yes, I generally am above them in "most" fights this expansion. Before 5.2, it was Disc priests. In 5.3, who knows who it will be. IH (our mastery) gives us an advantage, and with mana caps (300k) in effect, the desire to go mastery over haste makes this the smart choice at the moment.

Not just tank healers... Why should we be just "tank healers." No one else is just X healers. We all have toolboxes that give us specific situational advantages, but none of us are really pigeon holed into one specific role.

OP is a matter of perspective, and as for no one talking about it. This is at least the 5th thread I've seen in the last 2 months. Before 5.2 we were doing 80~% of Disc priests, and no one commented. We aren't doing anything different now. It's just more apparent what our power is now.

As for us being everywhere.. We've always been here. It's like buying a Toyota. You start noticing them on the roads. When you spotted the first one on the top of the charts, you started noticing us all over the place. We're common.

As for being ignored. Why fix a problem that isn't there. Our mastery works pretty much the same as always. Our spells haven't changed a whole lot. What is your suggested fix?

You say there is a problem, but don't say what the problem actually is (we are too mana efficient, heals have too fast of a cast time, etc), nor do you suggest a fix.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150

4 words: Tier 14 4 piece.


yep


I have the T14 4pc (483) and broke it into the 2pc, and 502 gear. I broke even on HPS/Overall healing. The stat increases justified the change, and if I can get the T15 2pc, I will be ahead of where I was. I don't think losing the t14 2 pc will be worth it though (unless I can jump up to the 522 set).

It's powerful, but it's becoming obsolete at the lower levels. It's a self correcting problem, as T15 Thunderforged/Heroic becomes common, T14 goes away.

But T14 4 piece, just makes DP & EF more powerful. Without it, you can still use CS for similar effect.
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100 Draenei Paladin
15105

4 words: Tier 14 4 piece.


yep


Yep..Until its gone with new tier.

Also holy pallies have strengths and weaknesses...While we may be totally badass on burst healing, we suck at moving healing.

Despite the claims of being OP, you still will only see one holy pally per raid lol. Most groups want more aoe healing such as druids. If you look at a ten or 25 man regular raid setting, the numbers for healing are more even.

If you are looking at LFR numbers, well those healing numbers are massive overheals as everyone tries to e-peen.
Edited by Runnerpally on 4/8/2013 7:28 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13225
I have the T14 4pc (483) and broke it into the 2pc, and 502 gear. I broke even on HPS/Overall healing.

In other words, assuming you were using the 4pc to maximum advantage, it's worth on the order of 38 ilvls worth of upgrades. By your experience, holy pallies were wearing 2 pieces of t15-equivalent gear before there even was a t15.

I suspect, however, that you weren't actually using it to its maximum advantage (if only because the advantage is multiplicative with your other gear, and your other gear is almost all LFR). I've seen very credible assertions that t14 normal 4-set is at least on par with t15 normal 4set, and t14 upgraded heroic may be BIS until upgrades come back out in 5.3.

Basically, I just want to make the point of how very powerful this particular set bonus is, and how bad it would be to make balance changes to paladins based on their performance in this particular gear. Gear gets replaced. Eventually. And the gap should start narrowing as other classes get geared up anyway.
Edited by Kaels on 4/8/2013 7:45 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
0

So why does nobody really talk about or acknowledge how OP pallies are, and how they need a nerf or to be toned down.

More so - any healer who likes to be the OP class with big numbers - I notice Holy Pallies are *everywhere* these days. Every raid group has/uses one.

Why is one class so ignored and allowed to be so good?


You clearly don't read the forums. There a new thread about this every other day. And the answers are always the same. Paladins are using a T-14 which increases our output by about 5-7% more than anyone else's. Take away 4-5k HPS from us and our HPS (which is not the end-all determination of a healer's degree of skill) and we'd be right smack even with Holy Priest, Druid, and Monk. Disc priests are still topping us, and Shaman are still a bit low.

Holy pallies being "everywhere" is because people like playing paladins. They're a popular class. Still, there are six healing specs and healadins make up 25% of them. If you're in a 25-man with 5 or 6 healers, guess what? Your raid is likely to have one or two! Just like about a third of healers are priests (either spec), and the other three healer types get the leftovers. Which is about right, since Druids have had the least number of available races until recently and Monks are brand new and not everyone swapped their mains to be a new mistweaver.

If you're looking at World of Logs or other rankings, paladins have top numbers appropriate to our 25% numbers. And we're still below disc priest.

There is one other acknowledgement. Healdins that overgear LFR can cause other healers to not heal so much, particularly the HoT classes. There's just not enough damage to go around. Personal anectdotes? I top the majority of LFR's because I'm sporting 505 iLevel. But I've been outclassed by every other healer spec at least once... when their gear is equal to mine.
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90 Human Priest
13720
Insight (4% per swing)


I was about to say WHATTTTTT but then I remembered it wasn't on every swing, just a chance. How effective is this for a holy paladin anyway? How often can you melee a boss for a decent amount of time. I guess any 4% you can get is pretty nice but it doesn't seem like something that is supposed to help Holy so much as Prot.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
Ah, do note that 4% is based off of our 60k mana pool, not our 300k mana pool. It's why our main heals cost 30%.

So we really only get .8% per swing. Or 2,400 mana.

And in practical usage, we melee less often than a priest used to be able to Solace. Worse, it means being in melee range, which isn't feasible or desired on every fight.
Edited by Wards on 4/8/2013 8:43 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
04/08/2013 07:41 AMPosted by Kaels
I have the T14 4pc (483) and broke it into the 2pc, and 502 gear. I broke even on HPS/Overall healing.

In other words, assuming you were using the 4pc to maximum advantage, it's worth on the order of 38 ilvls worth of upgrades. By your experience, holy pallies were wearing 2 pieces of t15-equivalent gear before there even was a t15.

I suspect, however, that you weren't actually using it to its maximum advantage (if only because the advantage is multiplicative with your other gear, and your other gear is almost all LFR). I've seen very credible assertions that t14 normal 4-set is at least on par with t15 normal 4set, and t14 upgraded heroic may be BIS until upgrades come back out in 5.3.

Basically, I just want to make the point of how very powerful this particular set bonus is, and how bad it would be to make balance changes to paladins based on their performance in this particular gear. Gear gets replaced. Eventually. And the gap should start narrowing as other classes get geared up anyway.


Actually I replaced 5 pieces of 483-489 gear when I broke my set. The set was powerful. I'm not saying it's not, and I still keep it in my bags for when I need a little boost in HoPo generation speed (Garalon kiting is a great example in 10N).

The assumption that you have to hold onto T14 4pc however is equally flawed though. The jump in ilvls does counter-balanace the loss of set bonus. If I gained the T15 set bonus (2pc), it would have blown it out of the water, as a mix and match set. I can't say whether T15 4 piece will surpass T14 2pc/T15 2pc though. Intuitively, it doesn't look as promising.

Both T14 sets (2pc/4pc) are crazy powerful, especially when compared to other sets.. But so was the pre-nerf PVP set. The T15 set (4pc) not so much.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
04/08/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Tsilyi
Insight (4% per swing)


I was about to say WHATTTTTT but then I remembered it wasn't on every swing, just a chance. How effective is this for a holy paladin anyway? How often can you melee a boss for a decent amount of time. I guess any 4% you can get is pretty nice but it doesn't seem like something that is supposed to help Holy so much as Prot.


If you stay in melee (which I try to do), it's EXTREMELY effective. Keep in mind it only takes a couple swings to get a bit of mana back, and that's on top of what we're already doing. Insight is the only viable seal choice (healing boost, healing haste, mana proc).

If we're using HS and EF/WoG/LoD (instant casts), we get some pretty decent swings in, just from GCD's. Playing conservatively with the mana (which is needed more than ever) comes into play as well, buying us more swings over the fight's duration.

We did Jin-R this weekend, and I was running on fumes the last part 25% of the fight. Without Insight, I wouldn't have made it that far. It's a great tool in the box.
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100 Night Elf Druid
16950
It's like buying a Toyota. You start noticing them on the roads.


yeah, LOTS of toyotas on theses lists

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/100/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Throne_of_Thunder/hps/
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90 Pandaren Monk
11695
God, please don't nerf paladins. I don't even have a 90 one, but they are so nice to heal with.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
You might get some thought out of the Spec Score (is there a reason why you chose one that only had 1,200 samples?) but the rankings are, as I said, about where they should be.

Paladins make up 25% of healers.
10N: 42 of 120
10H: 33 of 100
25N: 27 of 120
25H: 34 of 100
LFR: 27 of 90

A little above average in most cases, but still rather reasonable looking considering that more paladins means more vying for the precious few top percent. And still below disc priests.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
If our pally gets nerfed, my healing will just take his place. Doesn't matter much, really. Just enjoy having a strong healing partner. Not like your class is magically becoming unfun with a paladin in the group.
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