Shaman on Council of Elders [10]

Uh actually, the thread was about a specific healing issue... the strengths of shaman not being used on this fight. The strategy we suggested fixes exactly that issue.

It's good that you aren't dismissing it entirely, as it does work, and works well. We got our kill fairly quickly after Eein suggested we try it.
Edited by Morenn on 4/12/2013 2:05 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17275
It is not, but the strat for heroic isn't that much different. It simply involves interrupting Mar'li and dragging her out to make sure she's not in the pile when she's not empowered.


We do the same thing on normal, because we have a rogue. We just keep them all stacked for cleaves until she is about to be empowered, and then drag her out.

04/12/2013 01:57 PMPosted by Fleurs
The purpose of this thread is because of a supposed healing issue, the solution you're backing up is one that prolongs the fight when it is completely unnecessary, which can therein cause even more healing problems.


You are assuming allowing blessed loas that get by will drag the fight out, but that assumption isn't necessarily true.

On 10 man normal, the add heals the most injured troll for 4 million, *however* the add has 1.39 million hit points. So really, the question is whether your dps can make up 2.61 million by not switching to the add. If you have some dps that cleave heavily, the answer is pretty easily "yes".

Edit: those numbers were pre-nerf. The correct numbers for 10N are now: Blessed Loa 1,390,000 health; blessed load heals target for 3,816,500. So each one that goes through gives a deficit of 2,426,500 that the dps would need to make up.

I can tell you, that is pretty easy to do with just one fire mage and one rogue in the group.
Edited by Taymage on 4/12/2013 2:31 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/12/2013 01:57 PMPosted by Fleurs
The purpose of this thread is because of a supposed healing issue, the solution you're backing up is one that prolongs the fight when it is completely unnecessary, which can therein cause even more healing problems.


It doesn't extend the fight by any appreciable measurement unless your DPS are bad.

It is a little ironic that for some reason when people are stacked, they will magically know to pay attention to mechanics (Biting Cold, Kazra's charge, Sandtraps) but for some reason, they do not when they are spread? If the people in his group were paying attention to all mechanics as they should, with or without this strat, there wouldn't be nearly as much of a reason to try and find a strat that caters to Healing Rain.


Not necessarily. The OP is looking at his numbers and seeing that they're low. This strategy caters to the use of Healing Rain, a Shaman's strongest spell at the moment, and it is very good. They are spread not because they are stupid, or bad, but because it's just easier to not have to worry about the mechanics at all. Just because they aren't worrying about those mechanics now doesn't mean that they can't learn to - and they will have to if they want to get the fight down on heroic at any point.

Our shaman had Healing Rain do 7.6% of his total healing done, with Riptide, HST, and GHW being top 3 while we 2healed. That says to me that our overall damage taken as a raid wasn't high enough to call for a strat that catered to his best raid heal.


Or it means that you were spread out and HR was healing 2 people at any one time.

I am not trying to throw this "strat" out the window, because maybe it is working for some people..................................... I just find it unnecessary and in the end, not the solution to the problem people are facing.


The strat works, and it's very easy. You may think it's dumb, but fortunately it's not up to you.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Uh actually, the thread was about a specific healing issue... the strengths of shaman not being used on this fight. The strategy we suggested fixes exactly that issue.

It's good that you aren't dismissing it entirely, as it does work, and works well. We got our kill fairly quickly after Eein suggested we try it.

It's clear that the main reason he feels like he can't do much is because his raid is taking unneeded damage and is being forced into healing inefficiently just to make do. Or the DPS isn't strong enough to kill the boss in a timely manner. That's what I see. The answers given are ones that can cater to shaman playstyle, sure, but from what I see, this is anything but a problem with his class and everything to do with the raid.
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It's clear that the main reason he feels like he can't do much is because his raid is taking unneeded damage and is being forced into healing inefficiently just to make do. Or the DPS isn't strong enough to kill the boss in a timely manner. That's what I see. The answers given are ones that can cater to shaman playstyle, sure, but from what I see, this is anything but a problem with his class and everything to do with the raid.


How exactly is that clear? He neither said, nor implied, anything of the sort.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17275
from what I see, this is anything but a problem with his class and everything to do with the raid.


But even if that is true, the stacking strategy is highly likely to help. Trust me, it's much easier on almost every level. More damage done to the bosses, it's less chaotic with the bosses, most of them anyway, being in one place for much of the fight.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
04/12/2013 02:15 PMPosted by Morenn
It's clear that the main reason he feels like he can't do much is because his raid is taking unneeded damage and is being forced into healing inefficiently just to make do. Or the DPS isn't strong enough to kill the boss in a timely manner. That's what I see. The answers given are ones that can cater to shaman playstyle, sure, but from what I see, this is anything but a problem with his class and everything to do with the raid.


How exactly is that clear? He neither said, nor implied, anything of the sort.

For starters, the strat he's trying to do.

Because of the spread, I'm not really able to make use of HR+CH very effectively. Most of this fight I spend doing healing waves and HST, which causes my healing to drop a lot, so I was looking for advice/tips on how to improve performance in a single target fight, especially one where you're healing with a paladin.

This is exactly what our shaman does and doesn't do ~amazing~ numbers, but it doesn't mean he's not being an effective healer. It also doesn't mean the issue is his class, but rather how the raid is handling the fight.
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04/12/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Fleurs
For starters, the strat he's trying to do.


You could be correct. However, my interpretation was that this was their first and only strategy, ergo not relating to having taken any damage at all yet but assuming this would be the best way to avoid potential issues.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
04/12/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Morenn
For starters, the strat he's trying to do.


You could be correct. However, my interpretation was that this was their first and only strategy, ergo not relating to having taken any damage at all yet but assuming this would be the best way to avoid potential issues.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but he definitely said they've tried this and it just wasn't working for them. It wasn't just a plan, it was what they were doing.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but he definitely said they've tried this and it just wasn't working for them. It wasn't just a plan, it was what they were doing.


Well yes, it is a plan executed. What I mean is your answer to how it was obvious was "because they use this strategy". I would assume that they created the strategy before pulling, so I don't see how the reason could be because they were taking too much damage. Since there is no damage being taken during the planning stages. :)
Edited by Morenn on 4/12/2013 2:39 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
04/12/2013 02:38 PMPosted by Morenn
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but he definitely said they've tried this and it just wasn't working for them. It wasn't just a plan, it was what they were doing.


Well yes, it is a plan executed. What I mean is your answer to how it was obvious was "because they use this strategy". I would assume that they created the strategy before pulling, so I don't see how the reason could be because they were taking too much damage. Since there is no damage being taken during the planning stages. :)

Oh, I see. That makes more sense.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
Stacking the bosses won't drag out the fight (on normal).

Here's the last Council kill I logged:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/btkgfn9cvo9lou6d/details/8/?s=1095&e=1640
The extra damage from the second tank alone offset the healing from the Blessed Loas. Here's our Marli tank's damage:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/btkgfn9cvo9lou6d/details/2/?s=1095&e=1640
14M damage on Sul and 22.3M damage on Malakk.
Here's the Blessed Loa's healing:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/btkgfn9cvo9lou6d/spell/137303/?s=1095&e=1640
18.7M healing on Sul and 11.2M healing on Malakk.

So we're actually ahead overall, and only behind by about 5M on Sul, which is more than offset by the cleaves from our DPS.

As for increasing damage taken, it's fairly common in normals for a strat that increases damage taken to also make healing easier, especially where shamans are involved.

This is why I went off on you in that other thread. You're doing exactly what I described there. You're giving the correct strat according to the fight mechanics and basically telling the OP to stand back and wait for his raid to stop failing. That's not an acceptable response to a normal-mode raider because our raids are not going to stop failing.

(We don't use the stack strat because we don't need to, since we're 2-healing with a priest/druid/shaman comp. 2-healing with paladin/shaman would be a different matter, and we would definitely set up to get the most out of HR.)
Edited by Kaels on 4/12/2013 2:58 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
9900
Gotta step in here before speculation continues to run rampant :D

We're doing the strat we're doing 'cause that's just the strat we found and explored. We're not married to it, we're not doing it because our DPS is bad, we're not doing it for any other reason past it's just what we found to be a logically good placement to deal with the start of the fight and went with it.

Don't get me wrong, we've had some success so far... sure we didn't march in and down the boss right away but last night we were making steady progress.

The reason I came here is for advice on how to improve myself in this fight, I got that. I also got a very helpful suggestion on how to adjust our strat to make my healing more efficient, which I definitely intend to suggest to my group. If we go for it, great, if we don't I've already had some great help to get through. I don't need to top the healing meters certainly, I just want to do better.

Anyway, I very much do appreciate the help that's been offered in this thread, it's been great so thank you! Please just don't read too much into what we're doing ;)

Thanks!!
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The reason I came here is for advice on how to improve myself in this fight, I got that. I also got a very helpful suggestion on how to adjust our strat to make my healing more efficient, which I definitely intend to suggest to my group. If we go for it, great, if we don't I've already had some great help to get through. I don't need to top the healing meters certainly, I just want to do better.


Good luck! :)
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17275
Ugh, that log.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
Stacking the bosses won't drag out the fight (on normal).


Of course it won't drag out the fight because of extra damage to the other bosses, but you're requiring more damage to be done to the boss you're trying to kill(Due to not only it healing, but for most cleaving is less single target). Any strategy can obviously work on normals, but killing the only boss that does any sort of real raid damage as quick as possible seems like it's better than not, as the other 3 are a complete joke.

That's not an acceptable response to a normal-mode raider because our raids are not going to stop failing.


Actually it is, Blizzards idea for a normal-mode raider is to be able to do mechanics, and that is all, everything else comes second. That's why you could 5 heal normal modes if you want ;).
Edited by Sensations on 4/12/2013 3:52 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17275
you're requiring more damage to be done to the boss you're trying to kill


The speed with which Sul dies doesn't matter, so long as he dies before he empowers. And he easily dies before the empower with this strategy.

Given (1) he dies before empower; (2) the strat, as you acknowledge, provides more damage overall - thereby making the fight shorter; and (3) it simplifies everything, it is a very good strategy for normal modes at least.

I am actually fairly sure this is what most people do, and I find it strange that you guys haven't heard of this.
Edited by Taymage on 4/12/2013 3:46 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
5860
Back when they had more HP it was relatively hard to kill Sul before he empowers without letting other trolls get 100 DE at a avg 496 ilvl. Now that the HP's been nerfed and the Dark Energy gain is slower, Stack'n'Cleave is probably the best option.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
Back when they had more HP it was relatively hard to kill Sul before he empowers without letting other trolls get 100 DE at a avg 496 ilvl. Now that the HP's been nerfed and the Dark Energy gain is slower, Stack'n'Cleave is probably the best option.


This is a good point and I did forget about the nerfs, any idea how much they nerfed their dark energy gain?

The speed with which Sul dies doesn't matter, so long as he dies before he empowers. And he easily dies before the empower with this strategy.

Given (1) he dies before empower; (2) the strat, as you acknowledge, provides more damage overall - thereby making the fight shorter; and (3) it simplifies everything, it is a very good strategy for normal modes at least.

I am actually fairly sure this is what most people do, and I find it strange that you guys haven't heard of this.


Somewhat true, I doubt normal modes have perfect interrupt rotations so killing him faster does means less raid damage overall. But I did forget about their latest nerfs to council as well so I guess the fight is even more of a joke now.

We also don't tend to do such strats since we want all raiders to experience the mechanics for when we enter heroic modes so I guess there is a difference between our difficulties. That being said, the strategy is a little similar to that on heroic(You have to kill sul before a sandstorm or it's a wipe) :p.
Edited by Sensations on 4/12/2013 3:57 PM PDT
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