High Elves of Dalaran

100 Night Elf Druid
15300
The variable people aren't considering herein is nationalism, which as we have seen from real-world history can take on numerous forms and magnitudes.

It's perfectly reasonable to suspect that many groupings of elves, regardless of the many slights of the wars and having lived outside the core holdings of their kingdom for a prolonged period, would have either grown apart from their social/cultural/economical ties to their kingdom or else willingly associated themselves with third-party local, regional and national entities.

To expect that all elves were loyal to a solitary authority, prior to some schismatic event that was close to being farcical, is somewhat naive. Their spectrum of politics is very likely dynamic, even if neither game nor book can fully establish this as a basic truth. The brief version:

--A majority of elves placed most of their loyalties with Quel'thalas.
--A minority of elves placed most of their loyalties with Dalaran.
--A minority of elves might have placed most of their loyalties with Lordaeron.
--A minority of elves might have placed most of their loyalties with none of the above.

Quel'thalas was no longer part of the Alliance (nor was Stromgarde) at the time. They had no obligation to come to the aid of Dalaran. Furthermore, Quel'thalas was destroyed before Dalaran- Archimonde was only summoned after Arthas raised Kel'thuzad in the Sunwell.


This is all well and good, to be sure, but for an elf that spent perhaps 5% of their considerable lifetime in Quel'thalas and the other 95% in Dalaran there isn't really a reason to side with the former over the latter. This goes both ways and is perfectly understandable in both cases.

This thread has been considering nationalism. If we consider that Anasterian Sunstrider, who was at the very LEAST a bit over 2,220 years old at his death, was considered to be of advanced age... it's entirely possible and likely that many high elves were born in or spent the majority of their lives in Dalaran. Dalaran didn't pop into existence recently, it's got at least a few millennia of history under its belt.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
This thread has been considering nationalism. If we consider that Anasterian Sunstrider, who was at the very LEAST a bit over 2,220 years old at his death, was considered to be of advanced age... it's entirely possible and likely that many high elves were born in or spent the majority of their lives in Dalaran. Dalaran didn't pop into existence recently, it's got at least a few millennia of history under its belt.


I agree, just seems like people are shocked to hear that there are actually elves who aren't exclusively loyal to Quel'thalas. So... I provided some brief examples illustrating how that isn't actually accurate. :)
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 3:52 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
This is amazing! I didn't even think about this, though I have to wonder just how the events went down.

I'm assuming it went something along the lines of

-Garithos recaptures city from Scourge
-Kael offers Aid
-Garithos confines Kael and his entourage for conspiring with naga
Right Here I have to stop, because at this point, what constituted Kael's entourage? Was it just those that were with Kael that Garithos himself arrested, or did he lump in all the elves that came back to the city after it had been reclaimed.
-Kael escapes with the help of Vashj
-Kael and Vashj escape into Outland

So at this point, we have the High Elves return to Dalaran that hid themselves underneath the bubble with the rest of the citizens until it showed back up in Wrath of the Lich King.

Did they come back after Garithos left the area, and didn't fall sway to the racial hatred for the alliance becuase Dalaran was their home? I feel like I missed a big part of the story.


It's highly likely all Elves had to leave during Garithos command. He was pretty much a racist and the only one in command around those parts. Considering Theron short story, and ignoring other groups of High Elves on Stormwind and Theramore for instance, the only High Elves around these parts were the ones who left Silvermoon due the whole exile incident. Until then, they might've called themselves Blood Elves with no trouble.

I think Blizz really needs to clarify what the heck happened with Dalaran. Did the city become entirely destroyed when Garithos and his forces were killed by the Forsaken? Or only some who then they returned and tried to isolate themselves within? If all of them were killed, then some people returned and rebuild it (people that actually belong to Dalaran or not)?

All events, timeline, current and old condition, population and factions, etc, should be clarified.

I believe it happened somehow like this:

- With the whole Garithos event all elves escaped from Dalaran.
- At some point, some went back to Silvermoon rebuilt and others to Outland.
- Garithos and his forced are defeated.
- A bunch of the ones who remained in Silvermoon are exiled because they have a different approach in how to deal with the addiction. They are named again High Elves and belong in the Alliance.
- Many of these banished High Elves travelled back to Dalaran and other Alliance settlements to seek shelter.
- Later Dalaran appears with a new leadership and neutral when it comes to a war between these factions. Two elf factions appear in Dalaran, the High Elven Silver Covenant and the Blood Elven Sunreavers.

I don't really believe there's any difference between the High Elves of the SC from any other High Elves. Although there are those individuals who might think and feel the way it pleases them, it's quite hard to think of any High Elf who belongs in the Alliance that wouldn't be "angry" with the whole exile.

Also, I don't think Dalaran should be seen as a typical city. It feels more like a place to which people travel to study and happens that some of them end up living there.

This thread has been considering nationalism. If we consider that Anasterian Sunstrider, who was at the very LEAST a bit over 2,220 years old at his death, was considered to be of advanced age... it's entirely possible and likely that many high elves were born in or spent the majority of their lives in Dalaran. Dalaran didn't pop into existence recently, it's got at least a few millennia of history under its belt.


Which would certainly make them incredibly loyal to the Alliance. The fact these elves that have lived within an Alliance city among Alliance people for so long would somehow not care when some of their brethen is banished from their ancient homeland exactly because of their loyalty to Alliance beliefs and ideals is quite contradictory.

Also, Dalaran only recently became neutral, and not because they were "against" or "apart" from the Alliance, they merely worked along with the Horde and were against the war, so it quite contributes to my point.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
I believe it happened somehow like this:

- With the whole Garithos event all elves escaped from Dalaran.
- At some point, some went back to Silvermoon rebuilt and others to Outland.
- Garithos and his forced are defeated.
- A bunch of the ones who remained in Silvermoon are exiled because they have a different approach in how to deal with the addiction. They are named again High Elves and belong in the Alliance.
- Many of these banished High Elves travelled back to Dalaran and other Alliance settlements to seek shelter.
- Later Dalaran appears with a new leadership and neutral when it comes to a war between these factions. Two elf factions appear in Dalaran, the High Elven Silver Covenant and the Blood Elven Sunreavers.


We should also consider that almost all documentation of the early history of the Blood Elves begins with something akin to this, "...many of the former High Elves followed Kael'thas Sunstrider in renaming themselves Blood Elves."

Notice it is typically always mentioned as many, not all, which lends credibility to the notion that the demonym (High Elf) has been in continual use by certain individuals even after the Invasion of Quel'thalas. This suggests that there was never a universal grouping and that it was an individuals decision where their loyalties lay.

It's just as likely that there were HE's in Dalaran, and elsewhere, who were entirely disassociated with both the Reclaiming of Quel'thalas and the concept of Blood Elves under Kael'thas. There isn't any evidence, anywhere, which would enlighten us as to the actuality of these events but it's very likely to have been the case considering some (Aerie Peak, Stormwind, etc.) were never a part of the Blood Elves, to our knowledge.

(As an interesting aside it would be curious to discover if the reference to the HE's population, "10% of 10%", was referring solely to those who were disassociated with the BE's from the start or if it always included those who would later be exiled from Quel'thalas. If it were the former, then it could explain why we're seeing HE's all over the place: their population would've had an enormous growth following the banishing by Lor'themar.)
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100 Human Warlock
7615


I don't really believe there's any difference between the High Elves of the SC from any other High Elves. Although there are those individuals who might think and feel the way it pleases them, it's quite hard to think of any High Elf who belongs in the Alliance that wouldn't be "angry" with the whole exile.


Disagree. I see no reason why some portion of the non SC high elves might not in fact be sympathetic to the Silvermoon regime, especially post Sunwell restoration. It's now very possible for Lor'themare to start winning some hearts and minds here. It very much depends now on how the Silvermoon regime evolves and if they follow the example of Lady Liadrin.

Most would align themselves with or be sympathetic to the Alliance. But not all, and there's room here for a range of political views.
Edited by Sybhyl on 4/15/2013 6:32 AM PDT
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Notice it is typically always mentioned as many, not all, which lends credibility to the notion that the demonym (High Elf) has been in continual use by certain individuals even after the Invasion of Quel'thalas. This suggests that there was never a universal grouping and that it was an individuals decision where their loyalties lay.


This makes some sense, according to the High Elf wowpedia page, there was something in the lore that stated that Kael rallied all the elves to him that he could find and renamed themselves the blood elves. He sent some back to Quel'thalas to rebuild their city of Silvermoon, while he took 15% of them and began searching for more elves.

The stuff with Garithos happened, he fled to outland with Vashj, and then they learned to siphon magic, and sent Rommath back to teach everyone.

Then Lor'themar expelled the dissidents that refused to practice this magic.
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
We should also consider that almost all documentation of the early history of the Blood Elves begins with something akin to this, "...many of the former High Elves followed Kael'thas Sunstrider in renaming themselves Blood Elves."


"Many" here could mean anything, really. "Many of the former High Elves" could just mean that the survivors, which are only part of the High Elven population, became Blood Elves.

But, yea, there were other High Elves considering Stormwind and other places. As I said, only if we ignored other Alliance settlements. But those zones around Lordaeron and Quel'thalas, all Elves surely joined Kael.

It's just as likely that there were HE's in Dalaran


At which moment this "were" refers to?

As I said, it's just impossible that Garithos would've allowed them. Doesn't matter if you call them Blood Elf or High Elf during that moment because both were still entirely Alliance. Forcing Kael and the elves out wasn't a matter of Blood or High Elf neither to do with his pratices. It had all to do with the fact he was the only one in charge, the Alliance as a whole was pretty much broken on these zones and he was a total racist.

Disagree. I see no reason why some portion of the non SC high elves might not in fact be sympathetic to the Silvermoon regime, especially post Sunwell restoration. It's now very possible for Lor'themare to start winning some hearts and minds here. It very much depends now on how the Silvermoon regime evolves and if they follow the example of Lady Liadrin.

Most would align themselves with or be sympathetic to the Alliance. But not all, and there's room here for a range of political views.


Well, just because they stopped making use of siphon magic to deal with their addiction don't really change what they have done before. If these High Elves are called High Elves they are Alliance, which means their views should prefer and look things through an Alliance standpoint. The fact they wouldn't care for what has been done or somehow take it lightly, and in exchange sympathize with Horde position, would basically define them as Blood Elves.

Considering it's a political matter, sure, there can be different positions, but I think people are going too much through some notion that there are "neutral High Elves" or something, as if Dalaran was neutral, as in apart from the Alliance. Technically, there might've been Blood Elves that didn't side with Quel'thalas, and High Elves that didn't side with the Alliance, but the lore seems to make sure that BE are Horde and HE are Alliance. The fact Dalaran is an Alliance city, Kirin Tor is an Alliance faction, only contributes to conclude this.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
04/15/2013 09:26 AMPosted by Osiria
But, yea, there were other High Elves considering Stormwind and other places. As I said, only if we ignored other Alliance settlements. But those zones around Lordaeron and Quel'thalas, all Elves surely joined Kael.


There isn't a whole lot about anything from this period that is "sure", it's typically all speculative.

At which moment this "were" refers to?


The many thousands of years prior to the Invasion of Quel'thalas.

As I said, it's just impossible that Garithos would've allowed them. Doesn't matter if you call them Blood Elf or High Elf during that moment because both were still entirely Alliance. Forcing Kael and the elves out wasn't a matter of Blood or High Elf neither to do with his pratices. It had all to do with the fact he was the only one in charge, the Alliance as a whole was pretty much broken on these zones and he was a total racist.


This is absolutely one of the most incorrect statements I've ever read as it pertains to elves, of any creed. I'm honestly not going to touch upon all the wrongness because it would require a half-dozen bulletpoints which, quite frankly, you haven't earned from me in the slightest. You chop it up to racism, I'll tell you you're very wrong, we'll leave it at that until you can be bothered with some light reading.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Othmar_Garithos
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kael%27Thas_Sunstrider#The_Rise_of_the_Blood_Elves
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 9:59 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Garithos was a racist. Even with the new information on Garithos he blamed the Elves because they didn't help when Orcs raided a town where his family was. That's not the Elves fault. Garithos is just a big jerkhole.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
Garithos was a racist. Even with the new information on Garithos he blamed the Elves because they didn't help when Orcs raided a town where his family was. That's not the Elves fault. Garithos is just a big jerkhole.


It's a good thing, then, that they weren't arrested under charges of "wrong race". They were arrested because they were associating with known enemies of the Alliance -- just as with the Rodney King debacle, people are ignoring the actual crime in favor of investigating the personal opinions and motivations of the arresting officers.

Did the BE's commit a crime? Yes.
Did Garithos arrest them? Yes.

So what do personal motivations have to do with anything beyond that? It's certainly a cause for disliking the man, but to question absolute facts because of personal qualms is called being uneducated -- it would be like questioning Albert Einstein solely because he was Jewish, or Werner von Braun solely because he was German. Silly, silly, silly.
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 10:09 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
13525
That was most of the reasons why. Garithos didn't even give Kael'thas a fair chance and you know that. He was a jerk and you're playing devil's advocate.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
That was most of the reasons why. Garithos didn't even give Kael'thas a fair chance and you know that. He was a jerk and you're playing devil's advocate.


A lot of people are jerks, doesn't change facts.

The cop that pulled me over for going 32 MPH in a 30 MPH zone when I was in highschool was a pretty big jerk, he called me a "young punk", but does that change the fact that I was directly disobeying a posted traffic instruction? Nope.

The point is you can feel however you want about people, you can disagree with them until the cows come home, but at the end of the day if they present facts and you counter with ad hominem arguments you've already lost.
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 10:14 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
13525
If ad homieums and real life references are all you can come up with, I seriously question your validity of your arguments.

ad hominem


That wasn't an ad homiem. I'm saying your arguments are purely devil's advocate for it's own sake. You're the one who attacked me feeling bad for my future "corn feed offspring" So don't try and put this one on me.
Edited by Aeluron on 4/15/2013 10:16 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
If ad homieums and real life references are all you can come up with, I seriously question your validity of your arguments.


Do you even understand what an ad hominem attack is? It's when you base the soundness of an argument on the presenters character instead of their stated facts.

You're the one saying that Garithos was wrong solely because he was "racist", without analyzing any of the facts or stipulations of the time period. That is ad hominem.
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 10:17 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Yes I do, do you? You attacked me about my future offspring which has no importance to this thread.

You're the one saying that Garithos was wrong solely because he was "racist", without analyzing any of the facts or stipulations of the time period. That is ad hominem.


No, that is attacking the user of the argument which YOU. I have not done that at all. You attacked me first.
Edited by Aeluron on 4/15/2013 10:19 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
Aye, and I removed it within 30 seconds -- more to the point, it was directed at you individually, which as you said has no relevance to the thread.

However, ad hominem has been your ONLY argument regarding the BE's in every post. So what's worse?
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 10:18 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Aye, and I removed it within 30 seconds -- more to the point, it was directed at you individually, which as you said has no relevance to the thread.

However, ad hominem has been your ONLY argument regarding the BE's in every post. So what's worse?


Ad homieum has to deal with the user not the fictional character being attacked which we do all the time here so by your logic everyone here uses those arguments even though it's bull crap. You don't know what the term ad hominem is.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
Ad homieum has to deal with the user not the fictional character being attacked which we do all the time here so by your logic everyone here uses those arguments even though it's bull crap. You don't know what the term ad hominem is.


"An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy, more precisely an irrelevance." --Wikipedia

You're arguing that because of his personal beliefs, any facts which Garithos puts forward are inherently false. That is a personal attack and no, we rarely see it here from serious posters.

Edit: Also, you've spelled it wrong in like six different ways. That leads me to believe you have no idea what you're talking about in this regard.
Edited by Fyorsing on 4/15/2013 10:24 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
This is absolutely one of the most incorrect statements I've ever read as it pertains to elves, of any creed. I'm honestly not going to touch upon all the wrongness because it would require a half-dozen bulletpoints which, quite frankly, you haven't earned from me in the slightest. You chop it up to racism, I'll tell you you're very wrong, we'll leave it at that until you can be bothered with some light reading.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Othmar_Garithos
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kael%27Thas_Sunstrider#The_Rise_of_the_Blood_Elves


Funny, since you're so self-entitled but doesn't seem to bother to even comment to what someone has written, can you explain to me what I've just said?

Your interpretion skills seems to be lacking and I'm more than well informed about what happened.

Also, have you played WC3? Or you just read some wiki text describing what happened which didn't bring much context of how things happened?

By the way, if the best thing you can do is stand in that little pedestal of yours pretenting you are better than someone else, don't even mind posting.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12695
...can you explain to me what I've just said?


As with Aeluron here, your entire premise is a bunch of irrelevant fluff followed by a discussion ending use of ad hominem argumentation.

Your interpretion skills seems to be lacking and I'm more than well informed about what happened.


I'm not convinced.

Also, have you played WC3? Or you just read some wiki text describing what happened which didn't bring much context of how things happened?


I've played every title since WC2.

By the way, if the best thing you can do is stand in that little pedestal of yours pretenting you are better than someone else, don't even mind posting.


It's got nothing to do with being better, it's got to do with being right. If you don't register that utilizing ad hominem arguments typically renders them inherently wrong then there isn't anything else to be said. It boils down to having critical thinking skills, or not having them...
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