Holy Paladins PLEASE read! Bug in Denounce!

90 Draenei Paladin
0
So I'm talking with a Warlock friend of mine, and he's talking about the damage he can do with Chaos Bolt... especially since it always Critical Strikes. I inform him that that's great, except for when he is debuffed by "Denounce". And he thinks that Denounce shouldn't work on Chaos Bolt because it "always crits". So we test it out, repeated the test several times, and the Denounce debuff is boldly sitting there right on his nameplate, ticking down its 4 seconds, and he is critting away at me with his Chaos Bolt! Every time >:( I searched the bug report forums and found a couple examples of this happening with a similar Priest ability a couple years ago, but no recent postings, because I don't think it has been noticed.

I HAVE posted in the main Bug Report forum. Locks already have too much over us with curses that can't be cleansed and endless fear with no CD! And here I find that for who knows how long (probably since MoP was released, but who knows) they have a MAJOR damage spell sneaking right past the MAIN purpose of one of our main abilities. Chaos Bolt does not say "hits for 200% damage"... it says "always Critical Strikes". That's fine, if you aren't actively under a debuff that makes you unable to Crit! >:( Denounce is dispellable. Chaos Bolt should be attempting to proc a crit and failing to crit when it hits the Denounce debuff. They should have to dispell it first then cast their spell if they want the crit, obviously. So this must be a bug and Blizz should be fixing this immediately. This could very well be an issue with Denounce that is allowing other class's spells to crit as well.

I'm posting this here to ask ALL Holy Pallys to search for my Denounce Bug post in the Bug Reports forum, and add your voices to it to keep it at the top of the postings until Blizz responds and fixes this. This one thing could actually make it so a Pally MIGHT be able to beat a Lock once in a while, since Chaos Bolt is a ridiculously damaging attack. There's no reason it gets to nullify one of our ONLY debuffs that we have. If they want their crit, they have to dispell the debuff first just like everyone else does! (Just like *I* have to when I've had my own Denounce spell-reflected back on me! I sure can't crit when it's on me!)

Thanks for taking the time to add your voice and try to get this fixed asap. It wouldn't hurt to click the in-game "bug report" as well and send as many messages to Blizz to fix this too. But try to make the Bug-Report Forum post stick with the one posting, but keep adding your posts to it to keep it bumped to the top. Thanks a lot, everyone! And have a great day and have fun!
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90 Draenei Paladin
16325
Is this one of those immovable object vs. unstoppable force type deals?
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
Haha! Nope. Although that expression was already tried. We're addressing that thought in the thread in the Bug Report Forum. It's a simple matter of 100% Debuff vs 100% Proc. The 100% crit proc for Chaos Bolt is just that... a "100% CHANCE". But read the Blizzard Game Guide description for Denounce. Under spell description, it says "Debuff: -100% chance". The proc for Chaos Bolt is 100%. The Debuff is -100 from the percentage chance of the proc. Do the math. 100 - 100 = 0%. 0% is the net chance for the Critical Strike Proc.

And more simply put, Fist of Justice says "Stuns target for 6 seconds". But if they trinket, the stun doesn't go for 6 seconds. Why not? It SAYS 6 seconds! ;-) Denounce is dispellable. The debuff shows actively ticking on their nameplate. The tooltip shows "unable to critical strike". If they want to cast something to critical strike, they can dispell it, THEN cast their spell. And if they don't get their crit, they still get the 100% base damage of the spell. But if Denounce is ignored, an entire fundamental purpose of a 100% debuff is made completely useless. There's no way that's balanced. We get Holy Locked, we can't even debuff it. We just have to sit there and be beaten up for 6 seconds. They can take 1 second away from all casting of Fear spells at me to dispell the debuff, just like everyone else has to, and then cast their spell if they want their crit. Regardless, the effect of Denounce is crystal clear, and the math alone give them 0% NET chance of crit while Denounce is active.

Please check out the thread in the Bug Report though. The more we add our intelligent voices to it, the faster it gets fixed. Thanks so much! :)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17775
Here's an old post that might help.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006242880#new-post

Discussing RoS and Choas Bolt over on the arena forums someone mentions KM and Denounce. Figured I would Xpost for you guys.

Denounce:
Apply Aura: Mod Crit Chance % - All
Value: -100

Killing Machine:
Apply Aura: Proc Trigger Spell
Value: 1
Proc chance: 100%

Basically denounce negates killing machine bringing the crit chance back to base.

Ie base crit chance of 10%-
Killing machine makes that 110%,
denounce reduces that by 100% = 10% chance.

Thats my reading anyways.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
I could maybe accept living with a 10% (although I still don't feel that it matches the literal math in this case). But this thing was critting every single time in our tests. But regardless, take a talent like Divine Purpose. When Divine Purpose procs, we get to cast a Holy Power ability that requires no Holy Power, uses no Holy Power, but casts as if 3 Holy Power were used. When that procs, that's what the spell says is supposed to happen. But if Divine Purpose procs, and then I get Holy Locked before I cast WoG or SotR or whatever, I'm Holy Locked... period. And even though the spell I'm casting when Divine Purpose procs requires no Holy Power, so maybe "technically" you might say Holy Locked really isn't "locking" anything, the fact of the matter is the Holy Locked debuff stops the casting of Holy Power abilities, period. So whatever the spell makes me think I "should" get, the overriding factor is that NO Holy Power spell will cast.

Same thing in this case. I don't care if it's a 500% chance of a crit (exaggerating for the sake of illustration). If NO critical hits can happen during Denounce, no critical hits can happen, no matter how badly they "want" to. 0% chance times 1000% chance is still 0%

And like I said before... the target that is debuffed HAS a remedy to the situation... dispell the debuff. They have a "way" to still get their chance. The fact that Denounce is failing 100% of the time against Chaos Bolt strikes me as being a bug. As in your example, Denounce is having its mathematical effect on Killing Machine. At LEAST that should be happening vs Chaos Bolt.
Edited by Klethazeroth on 4/15/2013 5:10 AM PDT
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Chaos bolt will always crit, its damage scales with crit. If you make it impossible for them to crit, the ability will still crit, but it will crit for like 12k.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16515
Chaos bolt will always crit, its damage scales with crit. If you make it impossible for them to crit, the ability will still crit, but it will crit for like 12k.


Crit for no extra damage. Whatever the base damage of the spell is.

This isn't a bug, it's a flawed design with opposition mechanics coming into play.

Denouce just needs a tweak which instead of "prevents criticals" to "prevents additional/bonus/multiplicative damage from criticals."

If a mob was doing this to us, we'd have a pretty valid concern. Why is it less valid when a player does it?
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
Chaos bolt will always crit, its damage scales with crit. If you make it impossible for them to crit, the ability will still crit, but it will crit for like 12k.


That math is not correct. Chaos Bolt's damage scales with the "critical strike CHANCE". The critical strike chance doesn't stop being 100% on the front-end of determining the damage. That number would still exist for determining the base damage. The proc of the critical strike occurring when the spell hits would make the total damage simply 2X what it would be. If the damage with Critical Strike would have been 150k, it would simply be 75k without the final effect of the actual Critical Strike proc.

This eliminates the need for the clarification of the language you mentioned, Deadsecsi. I mean, when a target is "immune to stun", I still cast my stun. If my stun had a 25% chance to proc Grand Crusader or Divine Purpose or something, the target's immunity doesn't change the fact that I actually cast the stun, and I wouldn't lose my 25% buff chance that is part of the spell mechanic.

And really, this whole thing shouldn't be such a big deal. As I've mentioned before, Denounce is EASILY dispelled/cleansed. And I honestly don't feel there's much question here about which ability supersedes the other. ANY spell "always" does what it "does" unless it encounters an immunity or other effect that prevents its action. Silence "always" interrupts spell casting, unless the target "can't be silenced". So the silence ability never "gets there". Chaos Bolt can be sending its hopes and dreams of its "always a critical strike", but if the spell reaches the point of its crit procedure, and "can't go there", then it is prevented from happening. The fact of the matter is that locks (or whatever class might have a similar spell mechanic) want a free IMMUNITY from a debuff. And NOWHERE in the spell description of Chaos Bolt does it add immunity to silences/debuffs. Everyone has to deal with debuffs that prevent all kinds of actions. Denounce is dispellable. But for Denounce to have its very fundamental PURPOSE negated entirely instead of the target simply having to be troubled to dispell it, well that is clearly not balanced or even reasonable in my opinion.

And to quickly point out another thing... if the intention of the spell was to make it cause 200% damage, then THAT'S what the spell's description would be... "Causes 200% Shadow Damage". But the Critical Strike mechanism is used in determining what the spell "actually" ends up doing when it is cast. Why would they bother using Crit to mod the spell if the Crit itself couldn't be affected in any way by any thing? They would have just attached a "hard number" to it.
Edited by Klethazeroth on 4/15/2013 11:36 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
If my stun had a 25% chance to proc Grand Crusader or Divine Purpose or something, the target's immunity doesn't change the fact that I actually cast the stun, and I wouldn't lose my 25% buff chance that is part of the spell mechanic.

That really depends on how the proc works. If it's "proc on cast" then immunity wouldn't stop it, but if it's "proc on hit" then immunity would stop it. e.g. Crusader Strike won't generate Holy Power on an immune target because it has to hit, but Shield of the Righteous will still apply the damage reduction buff on an immune target because it activates on spell cast rather than on hit.

In any case, there's no "crit proc" on Chaos Bolt for Denounce to negate. Chaos Bolt always crits. Period. Denounce doesn't affect it because always critting is a part of the spell itself. Even if you gave the enemy -1000% crit chance somehow, Chaos Bolt would still crit.

If it was something like "Incinerate has a 20% chance to give your next Chaos Bolt a 100% critical strike chance" a la Killing Machine, then Denounce would negate it, because that's directly modifying its critical strike chance. Chaos Bolt doesn't work that way, though.
Edited by Keten on 4/15/2013 11:38 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
6975
That math is not correct. Chaos Bolt's damage scales with the "critical strike CHANCE". The critical strike chance doesn't stop being 100% on the front-end of determining the damage. That number would still exist for determining the base damage. The proc of the critical strike occurring when the spell hits would make the total damage simply 2X what it would be. If the damage with Critical Strike would have been 150k, it would simply be 75k without the final effect of the actual Critical Strike proc.


No, the math that Funker posted is actually correct. You misunderstand how Chaos Bolt works - the bolded parts of your post are wrong.

Chaos Bolt will always crit, no matter what. However, unlike every other spell in the game, its critical damage bonus is not a flat 200%. Rather, the critical damage bonus is based on the caster's critical chance at the time of casting. This is a bit counterintuitive, so let's look at some examples:

  • The Warlock has no buffs and debuffs, and has around a 15% critical chance. Chaos Bolt's damage will be somewhere between its base damage and double damage (that is, between 100% and 200%).
  • The Warlock has no buffs and is debuffed with denounce, and thus has a critical chance of 0%. Chaos Bolt's damage will be its base damage - but it will still be a critical hit, since it's always a critical hit. This is the case that Funker mentioned.
  • The Warlock has a large critical chance proc from a trinket (Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen, for example) and no debuffs, and thus has a critical chance of around 115%. Chaos Bolt's damage will be higher than 200%.

So no, there's no bug here, everything is working correctly. The fact that Chaos Bolt is a critical hit when the Warlock is debuffed with Denounce is irrelevant - Chaos Bolt's damage is nevertheless being reduced by Denounce.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
04/15/2013 11:37 AMPosted by Keten
If my stun had a 25% chance to proc Grand Crusader or Divine Purpose or something, the target's immunity doesn't change the fact that I actually cast the stun, and I wouldn't lose my 25% buff chance that is part of the spell mechanic.

That really depends on how the proc works. If it's "proc on cast" then immunity wouldn't stop it, but if it's "proc on hit" then immunity would stop it. e.g. Crusader Strike won't generate Holy Power on an immune target because it has to hit, but Shield of the Righteous will still apply the damage reduction buff on an immune target because it activates on spell cast rather than on hit.

In any case, there's no "crit proc" on Chaos Bolt for Denounce to negate. Chaos Bolt always crits. Period. Denounce doesn't affect it because always critting is a part of the spell itself. Even if you gave the enemy -1000% crit chance somehow, Chaos Bolt would still crit.

If it was something like "Incinerate has a 20% chance to give your next Chaos Bolt a 100% critical strike chance" a la Killing Machine, then Denounce would negate it, because that's directly modifying its critical strike chance. Chaos Bolt doesn't work that way, though.


I understand where you're coming from (and the same point was addressed in the Bug Report forum on this). I agree with the first part of your post (and I was implying in my example that it was "procs on cast". Crusader Strike says that successful hits generate holy power. That's a given.

But there actually IS a "proc" here, simply by its fundamental definition. "Proc" is the "procedure" or "process" of the spell going from point "a" to point "z" in the process of its cast. Critical Strike is a procedure in the spell, just like hit or dodge or anything. The deciding factor here is (or should be) that if a Critical Strike is PREvented, the procedure of the spell never BEGINS the Critical Strike process. Therefore that part of the spell fails before it begins. Stuns "always" interrupt spell casting. But if the target is immune to stun, the stun never gets to the part where it "always" interrupts spell casting. This would be NO different than interrupting the entire spell. I mean, if Chaos Bolt "ALWAYS" critical strikes, then the spell must not be interruptible either! It must not require mana or burning embers, because it MUST critical strike. That's obviously not true.

In the case of Denounce this is quite simple and cut and dry. The description of the spell says, "Prevents the target from CAUSING Critical Effects". So the ability to "cause" ANY critical effect at all is negated before the spell can create its "always critical strikes" part of the spells procedure. This is identical to being Silenced in relationship. Nothing in Chaos Bolt states "Makes the caster immune to interrupts or debuffs that affect spell casting". They don't get a "free immunity" to affects that PREVENT actions. So according to what denounce "does", Chaos Bolt never actually makes it to the part where it gets to "always" Critical Strike.

And again, the solution is simple. Denounce can be DISPELLED! Why shouldn't they be troubled to dispell a debuff just like everyone has to? No spell "does what it says" if it never makes it to the point of "getting there". Denounce comes first in the "cause and effect chain" here. It is already in place BEFORE Chaos Bolt is cast, just like a silence or any other buff/debuff would affect the status of what " happens next".

I understand that Chaos Bolt is a MAJOR ability for the Lock. That's fine. But Denounce is a MAJOR ability for Holy Pallys. Just like draining life energy is part of the fundamental workings of a Warlock's abilities, Holy Paladins fundamentally manipulate Critical Strike affects. What do we have in terms of "real" offensive spells? Holy Shock and Denounce. (and Word of Glory if you are glyphed offensively). Holy Shock turns healing to damage. Denounce turns the Holy Pally's FUNDAMENTAL ability to affect Critical Strike into a debuff (a debuff that is dispellable, so just dispell it THEN cast Chaos Bolt!) But to just say, "Yeah I get to not be affected by that debuff that prevents ANY Crits, just because" would be the same as Holy Pallys being immune to Fear, just because. That would eliminate one of the fundamental workings of the Lock, and would be obviously imbalanced.

Simply put, when something is 100% PREvented, the process stops right there. It never gets to "always crit" if it never gets to the "crit" part at all.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
In game mechanics terms, a proc has a specific definition, being an event that occurs when something triggers it. Chaos Bolt always critting is not a proc in game mechanics terms, because it's a part of the spell itself--nothing triggers it.

There's two ways that the game mechanics can handle a guaranteed crit:

1. A spell is given 100% critical strike chance. This is what happens with effects like Killing Machine, where the proc modifies the spell's critical strike chance.
2. The spell is coded such that it always crits. In this case, the spell's critical strike chance is irrelevant, because the spell's own mechanics bypass critical strike chance.

Denounce reduces critical strike chance by 100%. That means that when Option 1 is under the effect of Denounce, it acts as if it only had its base critical strike chance, because 100% of it was removed. But Option 2 will ignore Denounce, because the spell doesn't care about critical strike chance. It bypasses crit chance in order to always crit.

Now, you can argue that this shouldn't happen in terms of game balance, but mechanically it's working fine.
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90 Human Paladin
6975
04/15/2013 12:25 PMPosted by Klethazeroth
But there actually IS a "proc" here, simply by its fundamental definition. "Proc" is the "procedure" or "process" of the spell

Just to nitpick here, but 'proc' more commonly refers to a "programmed random occurrence".

Anyway, stop focusing so much on the fact that Chaos Bolt is critting over Denounce. Look at my previous post, learn how Chaos Bolt's mechanics work, and you'll realize that the fact that it crits is completely irrelevant - its final damage is still being affected by Denounce.

Chaos Bolt just has very unique mechanics. There's no bug here.
Edited by Takaratomy on 4/15/2013 12:46 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
But there actually IS a "proc" here, simply by its fundamental definition. "Proc" is the "procedure" or "process" of the spell

Just to nitpick here, but 'proc' more commonly refers to a "programmed random occurrence".

Anyway, stop focusing so much on the fact that Chaos Bolt is critting over Denounce. Look at my previous post, learn how Chaos Bolt's mechanics work, and you'll realize that the fact that it crits is completely irrelevant - its final damage is still being affected by Denounce.

Chaos Bolt just has very unique mechanics. There's no bug here.


Sorry, I actually did mean to specifically reply to your post about the numbers, but I got pulled away. I do actually understand how the numbers add up... I realize that the damage bonus scales with the caster's actual critical strike chance. I was just trying to simplify the actual "normal 100%" part of the Critical Strike bonus to the overall damage by saying that THAT part of the damage would be reduced, but the base damage would be what it is according the the math that you laid out and would still hit for whatever that added up to. I agree with that.

But to say "stop focusing on the fact that Chaos Bolt is critting over Denounce"?... the whole point of my post and issue to be addressed here that concerns me IS that whether Denounce is currently interacting with Chaos Bolt the way they "decided" it would interact, I feel that it is incorrect and needs to be changed. Please read what I am actually saying about it...

04/15/2013 12:25 PMPosted by Klethazeroth
In the case of Denounce this is quite simple and cut and dry. The description of the spell says, "Prevents the target from CAUSING Critical Effects". So the ability to "cause" ANY critical effect at all is negated before the spell can create its "always critical strikes" part of the spells procedure. This is identical to being Silenced in relationship.


There is no wiggle room here since the Denounces debuff prevents (or is SUPPOSED to prevent) ANY critical effect from ever actually "getting to the table". Chaos Bolt should never be getting to the point of "Always critical striking". I mean, we can agree to disagree on this, but to ask me to not focus on the entire point of my post when I think how it is actually acting in the game doesn't agree with the fundamental principles that make Denounce "exist". I stand on my statement that the Denounce debuff precedes ANY part of the Chaos Bolt cast, and since the debuff's language is just as "absolute" as Chaos Bolt's language, then it should be first come, first serve. Again, they have a response available... dispell Denounce first, then they can get their crit. That would match the chain of "cause and effect". I don't feel there is any other reasonable or balanced way to deal with two "always" effects contrasting with each other. The one that is cast "first" wins, and I believe the way this functions in the game needs to be adjusted accordingly. I mean, how many buffs/debuffs to Holy Pallys get? It's a core, primary ability, and I believe it needs to be fixed in the game.

And I have to respectfully disagree on your definition of "Proc". That is a "urban dictionary" type usage of the word. I'm a programmer myself, and the term as it applies in MMOs and other computer games comes from the word "procedure", and refers to the flow of the processes in the programming code that handle game interactions such as this very one we're discussing. (there's a nice background on the term on http://www.wowwiki.com/Proc ). I'm not trying to be a jerk, sincerely :) Just letting you know, and after all, you picked the nit ;D
Edited by Klethazeroth on 4/15/2013 7:47 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19370
It works exactly as Blizzard wants it to work, and you're confusing tooltip text with mechanics.

As you've been told a number of times denounce is not a "no crit" debuff, it's a -100% crit chance. Roar of sacrifice works in an identical fashion, and killing machine works in the identical reverse way.

Quit being mad that your friend was right.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
It works exactly as Blizzard wants it to work, and you're confusing tooltip text with mechanics.

As you've been told a number of times denounce is not a "no crit" debuff, it's a -100% crit chance. Roar of sacrifice works in an identical fashion, and killing machine works in the identical reverse way.

Quit being mad that your friend was right.


Well, you have no idea what my interaction was with my friend. We are arena partners, and on "each others" sides in being able to do what our abilities are supposed to do. I'm not "mad" at all, and we aren't "competing" about it. If you and I disagree on how it "should" be, that's just fine. But please don't make a personal attack here.

I have no confusion about the mechanic of either spell. You are quoting the "tooltip text" by saying it "always critical strikes". Read the actual details of the spell mechanics, and you will not find that it says "Critical Chance +100%". You are inferring that. I AM however going on both the tooltip text and actual details of the spell mechanism of Denounce. It DOES say -100% chance. I have stated these details plainly in both this thread and the Bug Report thread. So the end result is still subjective, and I am within my personal rights to disagree with how that is behaving in the actual application of these spells. And whatever Blizzard has it doing right now doesn't necessarily mean that it is working as intended. That's the point of these forums.

I maintain my same, straight-forward position... it is a 100% debuff, the description and mechanic is just as "absolute" as Chaos Bolt's description and mechanic. And I've stated what I believe is a perfectly balanced and fair solution... cleanse/dispell the debuff which is IN EFFECT at the attempt to cast Chaos Bolt. Then everyone gets a fair solution. The threads are posted, people can add their voice, and Blizzard can decide for themselves what they will do, whether that be nothing or decide it should be adjusted. And that's fine too.
Edited by Klethazeroth on 4/15/2013 7:35 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9970
If Denounce prevented Chaos Bolt from critting, then its own text that says "Chaos Bolt always critically strikes" would be violated. There simply is no way for Denounce and Chaos Bolt to interact that doesn't make at least one of the tootips false.

Moreover, yes, Denounce gives -100% crit chance. But Chaos Bolt does not get a chance to crit the way normal attacks do. No crit roll ever happens; there is no such thing as a non-crit Chaos Bolt. However, when CB's damage is calculated, it DOES properly account for the crit chance penalty that Denounce applies. Denounce's debuff functions appropriately: the penalty is applied when the mechanic checks what the crit chance is. It's just applied in a different way than it is for most attacks, because CB is really an oddball mechanics-wise.

So clearly, the PURPOSE of Denounce isn't being ignored. It does its job and properly negates any critical benefit. It's just a case where one description or the other must be inaccurate when taken in the most literal sense; they are mutually contradictory.

As an aside: "here's my solution" is just about the worst possible type of suggestion you can make. For one thing, your specific solution may be technically infeasible. But moreover, thinking up solutions is by far the easiest part. The hard is figuring out what to fix. Blizzard doesn't need, and doesn't particularly want, ideas for solutions. Make a compelling case for why something needs to be fixed, not just how to fix it.
So why does this need to be changed? Denounce isn't negated. Its debuff is fully effective in reducing CB's damage. In what way is this actually a problem?
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Not to push your buttons, but your posts are like, way too large to reasonably expect people to take the time to read.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
I truly don't see how this is debatable. Denounce "prevents the target from CAUSING critical effects." It is applied first. So no critical effects can occur. This happens before Chaos Bolt ever gets out the door. It's for all intents and purposes a silence for critical effects. Yes, Chaos Bolt always "critical strikes", but if there is no crit to strike, it gets a 0. Word of Glory always uses Holy Power, but if I'm holy locked, it doesn't get anywhere either.

Like I said several times, it's dispellable. Dispel the Denounce debuff then Chaos Bolt me into next week. But don't get a free immunity where none should exist.

(short enough? LOL! ;) )
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I truly don't see how this is debatable. Denounce "prevents the target from CAUSING critical effects." It is applied first. So no critical effects can occur. This happens before Chaos Bolt ever gets out the door. It's for all intents and purposes a silence for critical effects. Yes, Chaos Bolt always "critical strikes", but if there is no crit to strike, it gets a 0. Word of Glory always uses Holy Power, but if I'm holy locked, it doesn't get anywhere either.

Like I said several times, it's dispellable. Dispel the Denounce debuff then Chaos Bolt me into next week. But don't get a free immunity where none should exist.

(short enough? LOL! ;) )

Chaos bolt's critical effect is not an immunity, if it was immune you'd get nuked through Denounce. Instead you take a pretty measly hit. Sounds right to me
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