04/15/2013 11:37 AM
Posted by Keten
If my stun had a 25% chance to proc Grand Crusader or Divine Purpose or something, the target's immunity doesn't change the fact that I actually cast the stun, and I wouldn't lose my 25% buff chance that is part of the spell mechanic.
That really depends on how the proc works. If it's "proc on cast" then immunity wouldn't stop it, but if it's "proc on hit" then immunity would stop it. e.g. Crusader Strike won't generate Holy Power on an immune target because it has to hit, but Shield of the Righteous will still apply the damage reduction buff on an immune target because it activates on spell cast rather than on hit.
In any case, there's no "crit proc" on Chaos Bolt for Denounce to negate. Chaos Bolt always crits. Period. Denounce doesn't affect it because always critting is a part of the spell itself. Even if you gave the enemy -1000% crit chance somehow, Chaos Bolt would still crit.
If it was something like "Incinerate has a 20% chance to give your next Chaos Bolt a 100% critical strike chance" a la Killing Machine, then Denounce would negate it, because that's directly modifying its critical strike chance. Chaos Bolt doesn't work that way, though.
I understand where you're coming from (and the same point was addressed in the Bug Report forum on this). I agree with the first part of your post (and I was implying in my example that it was "procs on cast". Crusader Strike says that successful hits generate holy power. That's a given.
But there actually IS a "proc" here, simply by its fundamental definition. "Proc" is the "procedure" or "process" of the spell going from point "a" to point "z" in the process of its cast. Critical Strike is a procedure in the spell, just like hit or dodge or anything. The deciding factor here is (or should be) that if a Critical Strike is PREvented, the procedure of the spell never BEGINS the Critical Strike process. Therefore that part of the spell fails before it begins. Stuns "always" interrupt spell casting. But if the target is immune to stun, the stun never gets to the part where it "always" interrupts spell casting. This would be NO different than interrupting the entire spell. I mean, if Chaos Bolt "ALWAYS" critical strikes, then the spell must not be interruptible either! It must not require mana or burning embers, because it MUST critical strike. That's obviously not true.
In the case of Denounce this is quite simple and cut and dry. The description of the spell says, "Prevents the target from CAUSING Critical Effects". So the ability to "cause" ANY critical effect at all is negated before the spell can create its "always critical strikes" part of the spells procedure. This is identical to being Silenced in relationship. Nothing in Chaos Bolt states "Makes the caster immune to interrupts or debuffs that affect spell casting". They don't get a "free immunity" to affects that PREVENT actions. So according to what denounce "does", Chaos Bolt never actually makes it to the part where it gets to "always" Critical Strike.
And again, the solution is simple. Denounce can be DISPELLED! Why shouldn't they be troubled to dispell a debuff just like everyone has to? No spell "does what it says" if it never makes it to the point of "getting there". Denounce comes first in the "cause and effect chain" here. It is already in place BEFORE Chaos Bolt is cast, just like a silence or any other buff/debuff would affect the status of what " happens next".
I understand that Chaos Bolt is a MAJOR ability for the Lock. That's fine. But Denounce is a MAJOR ability for Holy Pallys. Just like draining life energy is part of the fundamental workings of a Warlock's abilities, Holy Paladins fundamentally manipulate Critical Strike affects. What do we have in terms of "real" offensive spells? Holy Shock and Denounce. (and Word of Glory if you are glyphed offensively). Holy Shock turns healing to damage. Denounce turns the Holy Pally's FUNDAMENTAL ability to affect Critical Strike into a debuff (a debuff that is dispellable, so just dispell it THEN cast Chaos Bolt!) But to just say, "Yeah I get to not be affected by that debuff that prevents ANY Crits, just because" would be the same as Holy Pallys being immune to Fear, just because. That would eliminate one of the fundamental workings of the Lock, and would be obviously imbalanced.
Simply put, when something is 100% PREvented, the process stops right there. It never gets to "always crit" if it never gets to the "crit" part at all.