Holy Paladins PLEASE read! Bug in Denounce!

100 Human Paladin
12300
I truly don't see how this is debatable. Denounce "prevents the target from CAUSING critical effects." It is applied first. So no critical effects can occur. This happens before Chaos Bolt ever gets out the door. It's for all intents and purposes a silence for critical effects. Yes, Chaos Bolt always "critical strikes", but if there is no crit to strike, it gets a 0. Word of Glory always uses Holy Power, but if I'm holy locked, it doesn't get anywhere either.

Like I said several times, it's dispellable. Dispel the Denounce debuff then Chaos Bolt me into next week. But don't get a free immunity where none should exist.

(short enough? LOL! ;) )


I kind of agree with this part. And though the mechanics may argue against it the tooltip does say: "...Preventing the target from causing critical effects for the next 4 sec."

Yes, I've read all the math and junk you guys posted, and I don't care one way or another, the two spells are technically working right. But I do think it would be nice for the spell to not hit at all if you can't crit.

Basically if you can't cause a critical effect, you can't cast a spell that always crits. Makes sense.

Why should the spell critting override the debuff that's applied to it, just because it says it always crits? When does a debuff never override a spell, unless ANOTHER DIFFERENT spell has been placed in effect previous to the debuffing spell. Like I said, ANOTHER DIFFERENT spell. Don't go trying to argue that Choas bolt prevents it, blah blah blah. I'm saying since when in warcraft can one single spell override a debuff, unless it's mechanics/tooltip specifically say otherwise (i.e. "Can be cast while stunned. Is not affect by global cooldown". Those sort of spells.)
Edited by Aleaina on 4/16/2013 1:23 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
13205
Tooltips are pretty much worthless for many aspects of the game. You can't really base much on them. They are just a guideline to give you an idea of what an ability does, but behind the scenes, many MANY aspects of the game simply don't work the way their tooltips show. Blizzard isn't a large software company making line-of-business software with a responsibility to properly document things. We shouldn't really expect them to be more than what they are.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
CHAOS BOLT IS NOT IMMUNE TO DENOUNCE.

Sheesh.

It applies Denounce's penalty. It's just applied in a different place than normal. It doesn't get a free immunity. It receives the full penalty. It just happens to do so in a weird way, because CB is a weird spell.
04/16/2013 01:21 AMPosted by Aleaina
Why should the spell critting override the debuff that's applied to it, just because it says it always crits? When does a debuff never override a spell, unless ANOTHER DIFFERENT spell has been placed in effect previous to the debuffing spell. Like I said, ANOTHER DIFFERENT spell.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=642

Just to name one.

And again, CB isn't actually overriding the debuff. The debuff is applied. It just applies weirdly to CB because CB is a weird corner case.
Edited by Ravicana on 4/16/2013 1:28 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
12300
CHAOS BOLT IS NOT IMMUNE TO DENOUNCE.

Sheesh.

It applies Denounce's penalty. It's just applied in a different place than normal. It doesn't get a free immunity. It receives the full penalty. It just happens to do so in a weird way, because CB is a weird spell.
Why should the spell critting override the debuff that's applied to it, just because it says it always crits? When does a debuff never override a spell, unless ANOTHER DIFFERENT spell has been placed in effect previous to the debuffing spell. Like I said, ANOTHER DIFFERENT spell.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=642

Just to name one.

And again, CB isn't actually overriding the debuff. The debuff is applied. It just applies weirdly to CB because CB is a weird corner case.


You're actually wrong. Saying I can use Divine Shield would be like saying I can use Divine Shield WHILE HOLY LOCKED. A paladin CANNOT cast divine shield while holy locked. You also can't cast it while being Cycloned. However, If I were to cast Devotion Aura (immune to silence/interrupt spells) then I could cast Divine shield even if a mage cast Counterspell or whatever on me. This was precisely my point. Divine Shield alone can't override a debuff like being locked out of a spell's school, but if it has another buff protecting it, it can. However CB somehow gets special treatment, and though it is a critical effect can get through a spell that says you can't cause a critical effect.

It's not hard to understand the logic. I KNOW it's being applied, I know it's working as intended. But the fact is the target can't cause a critical effect. Yet when you cast CB you're casting a spell that is a critical effect. Is it that hard to simply grasp that?

Spell doesn't allow critical effects. Warlock casts spell causing critical effect regardless of debuff.

Logic.

Again, I don't care, it is doing what it's supposed to do. I just don't see why they can't just say it does X amount of base damage, and then specify it always criticals... unless it can't (like under denounce's effects).
Edited by Aleaina on 4/16/2013 1:36 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9970
You specifically asked about debuffs. A spell school lockout isn't a debuff (and, by the way, Chaos Bolt can't override lockout either AFAIK, so I'm not really sure why you chose that comparison). And Divine Shield will happily override quite a number of debuffs that would normally prevent spells from being cast, even though DS' tooltip says nothing of being able to use it while stunned or etc.
Edited by Ravicana on 4/16/2013 1:38 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
12300
You specifically asked about debuffs. A spell school lockout isn't a debuff (and, by the way, Chaos Bolt can't override lockout either AFAIK, so I'm not really sure why you chose that comparison). And Divine Shield will happily override quite a number of debuffs that would normally prevent spells from being cast, even though DS' tooltip says nothing of being able to use it while stunned or etc.


Once again, missing the whole point.

If I'm locked out from casting holy spells. I can't cast a holy spell.

Warlock can't cause a critical effect. Spell that always crits can't be cast.

Simple.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
I get what you are saying, Ravi. CB gets an additional damage that scales with the caster's critical strike, but the final hit of the spell IS a crit, and it gives the 200% critical strike bonus to the adjusted overall damage of the spell. And this goes back to the original argument... whether or not Chaos Bolt is "supposed" to always crit, if a debuff is already in place that makes ALL critical effects fail, then it should never even get to that aspect of the damage increase. Is it really so much to ask that the caster push one button to dispell the debuff first so that an entire core ability of the Holy Pally isn't made useless? Affecting crit is a fundamental mechanic of the Holy Pally. It shouldn't just be ignored, or what's the point. They can get their crit by doing the work of dispelling it. That would be the balanced solution.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
I hope you realize you're only getting mad over its damage being in big, bold text, since the damage a Denounced Chaos Bolt does is what it would do were it capable of not critting.

Really, Chaos Bolt is more accurately incapable of critting, rather than a guaranteed crit.
Edited by Elidra on 4/16/2013 2:03 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Is it really so much to ask that the caster push one button to dispell the debuff first so that an entire core ability of the Holy Pally isn't made useless? Affecting crit is a fundamental mechanic of the Holy Pally. It shouldn't just be ignored, or what's the point. They can get their crit by doing the work of dispelling it. That would be the balanced solution.

That's not the balanced solution. What we already have is the balanced solution: they still technically get a crit, Denounce's crit chance penalty is included in the damage calculation at the appropriate place. Neither effect is negated, neither effect completely trumps the other.

What you're asking for is the "this trumps that" solution. Two contradictory effects, so this one should win. Why should a spammable debuff with a short cast time take precedence over a resource-consuming nuke with a long cast time?

(Do Destro warlocks even have the ability to dispel magic?)
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
So if the text in the combat log was different, you'd be fine? Because Denounce does affect Chaos Bolt's damage.

If you want Denounce to prevent Chaos Bolt from being cast at all, then you've got a messed up idea of what balance is.

(Do Destro warlocks even have the ability to dispel magic?)

If you have a specific pet out, yeah.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Oh right, derp. I don't play my warlock much, which is probably why he's been stuck at level 68 since mid-Wrath.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
Oh right, derp. I don't play my warlock much, which is probably why he's been stuck at level 68 since mid-Wrath.

My main used to be a warlock, so I still keep an eye on them.

I don't think the (Fel) Imp is favoured in PvP anyway.
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